Who caused the Dragonrise?

[EricW]

Who caused the rise of the dragon which devoured the reaching moon temple in Sartar? Kallyr? Argrath? Someone else?

[g33k]

25 minutes ago, EricW said:

Who caused the rise of the dragon which devoured the reaching moon temple in Sartar? Kallyr? Argrath? Someone else?

I still like the idea I met in 1981 -- the Lunars  themselves  caused it, trying to "consecrate" land that was, in fact, NOT "land" but "Dragon."

I suspect it's deliberately ambiguous in canon, so that YGMV and so that multiple stories can be simultaneously true.

[JRE]

We have some names, but nobody went and claimed responsibility, possibly fearing a devastating Lunar reprisal, or even an Orlanthi anti Dragon reaction. I think both Kallyr and Argrath let people believe they had something to do with it without going out and saying it. Orlaront Dragonfriend is generally assumed to be involved, and later he was one of Argrath's companions, but the Sourcebook says even he was surprised by the dragon's apparition. So at the end it Is Minaryth Purple the only sure name. The description in the Glorantha Sourcebook is taken from KoS Composite History of Dragon Pass. 

It is possible it was not the intended result, but a change happening, an unintended return of the Hidden Orlanth ring returning Orlant's ring to the sky by challenging the Lunars at their strongest. But as the Dragon then proceeded to menace the Moon, that seems unlikely to me.

Argrath's saga is unreliable, but has the clearest description of the Iron Ring. In that (pro-Argrath) piece we have Argrath as leader, Orlaront and the purple sage (surely Minaryth). In King of Sartar's miscellaneous fragments Minaryth Purple appears as one of Kallyr's companions, her caster, which would point at her, as Argrath was busy in Pavis at that point. 

[Ali the Helering]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

I still like the idea I met in 1981 -- the Lunars  themselves  caused it, trying to "consecrate" land that was, in fact, NOT "land" but "Dragon."

I suspect it's deliberately ambiguous in canon, so that YGMV and so that multiple stories can be simultaneously true.

I have always considered it to be an unintentional backfire of the ritual causing a sleeping dragon to awaken, indicating the Gloranthan Uncertainty Principle.

Is it a sleeping dragon; is it a range of hills; is it really, really angry at having its snooze interrupted?

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, EricW said:

Who caused the rise of the dragon which devoured the reaching moon temple in Sartar? Kallyr? Argrath? Someone else?

It seems to me that there is no canon answer

that's part of things I would like to know too *, but it seems it will not be cover... yet

as a great trend modelizer I would say that :

 

rqg answered definitely about the question of the multi or one Argrath

in 2033 rqg2 will answer the colymar issue of Kolmhy and Kangharl controversy. Are they one or are they two king in the same time ?

in 2056 rq3 will answer the real cause of the dragonrise. It would be fun that the last word I will hear, dying on my bed, is my grand son whispering "It is Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...."

 

* in fact,  I  would like to know the "truth" on everything and what the gloranthan may believe (maybe no gloranthan will ever know the truth, but they have an idea of course.

And I discovered on this forum that what I consider as an issue is for other not a problem  at all. That's interesting to see the difference between people

[Joerg]

Who caused it? A joint effort of thousands of Lunar mages, the lives of thousands of slaves, dozens of quests happening in parallel to the ceremony, and the trigger when the questers directed by Minaryth Purple machinate the return of Orlanth's Ring, and then allow the superposition of the Dragon's Head (the green star in Orlanth's Ring) with the constellation of the Dragon (in the Celestial River). The Lunar ritual preparations accumulated the magical power that awakened the dragon as the superposition of head and torso occurred. The Orlanthi dancers provided just one of the numerous stars of the constellation, the Lunar dancers provided all the rest, maintaining their positions in the circular progression that was the Lunar "dance". The encounter was about as inevitable as this movie collision:

 

[Darius West]

On 10/7/2022 at 6:07 PM, JRE said:

Argrath's saga is unreliable, but has the clearest description of the Iron Ring. In that (pro-Argrath) piece we have Argrath as leader, Orlaront and the purple sage (surely Minaryth). In King of Sartar's miscellaneous fragments Minaryth Purple appears as one of Kallyr's companions, her caster, which would point at her, as Argrath was busy in Pavis at that point. 

This ^^^.  I heard that Minayrith had the heels snapped off his boots by the closing mouth of the dragon as the party escaped.

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

This ^^^.  I heard that Minayrith had the heels snapped off his boots by the closing mouth of the dragon as the party escaped.

Minaryth was already dead at the time, held aloft by other questers.

This does make me wonder about the dragon's jaw and teeth, though. The purple sage's heels would be minuscule compared to a single tooth, even if we assume something similar to shark dentition.

[Mark Mohrfield]

Your player characters caused it, of course. Obvious, really.

[Harry the Dirty Dog]

Andrew Logan Montgomery's "The Company of the Dragon" has an answer.  It won't be canonical but it is a lot of fun.  Spoiler alert - it was the PCs.

[Ironwall]

Obviously it was Eurmal

[Shiningbrow]

On 10/7/2022 at 3:07 PM, JRE said:

We have some names, but nobody went and claimed responsibility, possibly fearing a devastating Lunar reprisal, or even an Orlanthi anti Dragon reaction. I think both Kallyr and Argrath let people believe they had something to do with it without going out and saying it. Orlaront Dragonfriend is generally assumed to be involved, and later he was one of Argrath's companions, but the Sourcebook says even he was surprised by the dragon's apparition. So at the end it Is Minaryth Purple the only sure name. The description in the Glorantha Sourcebook is taken from KoS Composite History of Dragon Pass. 

p44 of the Sourcebook, where it describes Argrath's companions, says: Orlaront Dragonfriend: This dragon magician was a key participant in the Dragonrise, but was exiled from Sartar soon after that momentous event by Prince Kallyr and joined Argrath Whitebull in Pavis.

So, a) he's involved directly, and b) probably not with Argrath, because he joins him in Pavis after being exiled (which I take to mean, Argrath wasn't there). Argrath was, apparently, in Pavis at the time of the Dragonrise. This doesn't exclude him, but since there's no other mention in direct connection to the DR, and that he'd need good intelligence (and a good number of participants), suggest it wasn't his doing.

I had always thought that it was Kallyr's doing, but the Sourcebook also says: Kallyr Starbrow also acted quickly. She exiled Orlaront Dragonfriend, seeking to contain what had been awakened.

Again, this implies to me that she wasn't involved (or, at least, the DR wasn't her intention), and somehow she blames Orlaront for it.

 

We do know Minaryth Purple was involved, cos he died there. So... who started it? (obviously, the PCs, but who else? Let's presume the PCs didn't actually think up this plan, but did go along with it.)

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

I had always thought that it was Kallyr's doing, but the Sourcebook also says: Kallyr Starbrow also acted quickly. She exiled Orlaront Dragonfriend, seeking to contain what had been awakened.

Again, this implies to me that she wasn't involved (or, at least, the DR wasn't her intention), and somehow she blames Orlaront for it.

For me, it does not mean she was not involved, but only that she didn't like what occurred. She may have planned to disrupt the Lunar ceremony, but not to have a dragon doing the job. She has to live with the consequences of having a true dragon in the middle of her kingdom, after all.

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

and somehow she blames Orlaront for it

Or maybe it is just good politics to exile someone called “Dragonfriend” if a dragon has just killed friends as well as enemies.

Doesn’t Vistera, the Feathered Horse Queen, get a look in on the conspiracy? Perhaps I missed a mention of her above, but she seems to have been in it up to her eyeballs (Sourcebook, p. 17):

Quote

She had pro-Lunar chiefs and priestesses murdered, allied with monsters and Tricksters, and made a terrible pact to awaken the Dragons. She died during the Dragonrise, upon witnessing her schemes reaching fruition.

[jajagappa]

10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

but the Sourcebook also says: Kallyr Starbrow also acted quickly. She exiled Orlaront Dragonfriend, seeking to contain what had been awakened.

Or she needed a scapegoat, and he was either 1) the most obvious choice given his tattoos and reputation; 2) the most convenient choice as no tribes or clans would dispute his exile; or 3) someone Kallyr already had strong suspicions about or even witnessed what he did.

[Gray Mouser]

In my French version of the "Rainbow mounds", in area 20, the description says: "En effet, cette colonne est le dernier maillon qui permettra un jour de réveiller le dragon qui est endormi sous les Monts Arc en Ciel. mais pour cela il faudrait une personne sur chaque socle à l'extérieur et une autre lisant l'inscription gravée sur la colonne, une tâche qui est réservée au prince Argrath" ("Indeed, this column is the last link that will one day awaken the dragon who is asleep under the Rainbow Mountains. but for this it would take one person on each pedestal outside and another reading the inscription engraved on the column, a task that is reserved for the prince Argrath"). I don't if this can be found in the original version of the Rainbow mounts scenario. But i always assumed that Argrath was involved in the Dragon incident. 

[Shiningbrow]

19 hours ago, Kloster said:

For me, it does not mean she was not involved, but only that she didn't like what occurred. She may have planned to disrupt the Lunar ceremony, but not to have a dragon doing the job. She has to live with the consequences of having a true dragon in the middle of her kingdom, after all.

But - clearly a very small cost to pay!

Besides - disrupt Lunar ceremony... or wipe out most of the advanced forces and decimate the Lunars in the area, especially all those magicians and priests.... I don't think there'd be too many who wouldn't want that! If summoning a dragon was something she knew about, and then exiling him, would have been part of the plan (and he was fine with this 'exile'). I doubt this would be so, though. And, how would you 'accidentally' summon a dragon? At this point, it would really mean that Orlanit and co had planned for this (regardless of what Kallyr was going to do). mad for some unknown reason chose not to tell her about it. Granted, I don't know how good their relationship was, but if they were in on this together, then it makes sense he'd suggest it.

Sp. No. For me, the exile is coming from someone who didn't expect this in any way.

Exiling someone who had the power to summon a dragon, but didn't tell you or invite  you into their plan - that I can understand might be an exile (remove the potential threat of a possible unknown player).

19 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Or maybe it is just good politics to exile someone called “Dragonfriend” if a dragon has just killed friends as well as enemies.

Presumably.... I don't think the friends being killed is that big of an issue though. It completely broke the Lunar stranglehold over Sartar after years. A couple more deaths wouldn't really mean much.

 

11 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Or she needed a scapegoat, and he was either 1) the most obvious choice given his tattoos and reputation; 2) the most convenient choice as no tribes or clans would dispute his exile; or 3) someone Kallyr already had strong suspicions about or even witnessed what he did.

As above... wiping out that Lunar base isn't something you need a scapegoat for. Removing a potential threat to your leadership is.

 

19 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Doesn’t Vistera, the Feathered Horse Queen, get a look in on the conspiracy?

That would make sense then.....

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

As above... wiping out that Lunar base isn't something you need a scapegoat for. Removing a potential threat to your leadership is.

True, but Orlaront doesn't strike me as a leader-type.  But there's now a massive dragon that's been raised just south of Boldhome, and despite the fact it wiped out the Lunar presence, it's still a Dragon and everyone knows how the Dragonkill went.  Fear (Dragons) is not just a fairy tale.

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

But - clearly a very small cost to pay!

Besides - disrupt Lunar ceremony... or wipe out most of the advanced forces and decimate the Lunars in the area, especially all those magicians and priests.... I don't think there'd be too many who wouldn't want that! If summoning a dragon was something she knew about, and then exiling him, would have been part of the plan (and he was fine with this 'exile'). I doubt this would be so, though.

 

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

And, how would you 'accidentally' summon a dragon?

That question takes an uncontested top position in the Lunar necromantic attempts to get an after-action report from Tatius. Although by this time, the political and military leadership of the empire should have learned that entrusting an Assiday with military resources results in losing those, be it the Building Wall Battle, the battle at the Hill fo Orlanth Victorious, the siege of Whitewall, or this little incident.

A for the masterminds behind the Ring of Orlanth quest, Orlaront and Minaryth, I suppose that they did expect a discharge of the draconic energies when they carried the Dragon's Head to its pre-severed posiion next to the constellation of the Dragon. They might have prepared some Aroka Quest items to flood the Lunars away, possibly wishing to inflict burning heavenly water onto the rite (Tanian may have been one of the new lights for the Ring, after all).

And maybe the questers had come off their pre-plotted course checked and re-checked by Minaryth, who was already dead at this point. That specific alignment might have been unplanned.

 

 

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Exiling someone who had the power to summon a dragon, but didn't tell you or invite  you into their plan - that I can understand might be an exile (remove the potential threat of a possible unknown player).

Minaryth was the other mind behind this quest, with Orlaront possibly being more an advisor and less the planner of this invasion into the celestial dance. The point of the exercise was to revive Orlanth's Ring, and thereby return the deity completely. That much succeeded admirably Rather than just the three new stars, now all eleven stars of the Ring of Orlanth traversed the sky, making Orlanth's visible presence in the sky stronger than ever within History.

There was a celestial dance done by Grazelanders, too. It isn't clear whether they took part in the rite, or whether they had a different dancing ground adding their own magics to what Tatius made reverberate throughout the future extent of this Reaching Moon temple.

[Shiningbrow]

On 10/12/2022 at 7:46 PM, jajagappa said:

But there's now a massive dragon that's been raised just south of Boldhome, and despite the fact it wiped out the Lunar presence, it's still a Dragon and everyone knows how the Dragonkill went.  Fear (Dragons) is not just a fairy tale.

Fair point!

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 10/11/2022 at 6:09 PM, jajagappa said:

Or she needed a scapegoat, and he was either 1) the most obvious choice given his tattoos and reputation; 2) the most convenient choice as no tribes or clans would dispute his exile; or 3) someone Kallyr already had strong suspicions about or even witnessed what he did.

It seems unlikely to me that such an old hand at heriquesting as Kallyr would not have known they were going to awaken the Dragon.  And she was an old hand at Celestial heroquesting too. Shown by the star in her forehead.

It is possible that Olaront proposed further use of the Dragon. And that seemed to Kallyr to be a bridge too far. 

A dragon would seem a risky thing to "use".  As demonstrated by the friendly casualties in the first round, Minaryth Purple and the Feathered Horse Queen and presumably more un named minor NPCs.

Olaront, given his own draconic orientation, might have argued too hard, angered Kallyr, perhaps saying "All that we have done for Sartar, now you are throwing it away by not using the Dragon to finish the Lunars off!  One sight of the Dragon and your guts turned to water!  At this rate you will never light the flame of Sartar!" Or words to that effect.  

Edited October 13, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
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[soltakss]

On 10/10/2022 at 8:41 PM, Mark Mohrfield said:

Your player characters caused it, of course. Obvious, really.

This is how I would go.

For me, it is better for the Adventurers to be at the heart of things, taking part in them, rather than being on the sidelines looking in.

 

[mfbrandi]

38 minutes ago, soltakss said:

For me, it is better for the Adventurers to be at the heart of things, taking part in them, rather than being on the sidelines looking in.

Oh, I don’t know:

    A:  “Ooh, look — big lizard in sky!”
    B:  “Where?” [Looks up.]
    A:  [Cuts B’s purse; runs away … very fast.]