Jump to content

Eurmal


Erol of Backford

Recommended Posts

7 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

This could be arbitrarily complicated, or it could be very simple:

I'll have to double think the PC, could be loads of fun but afraid it will upset the rest of the group... maybe to start each session stating that this particular PC is "special" but how to bind/join the trickster PC to the rest of the group in lieu of them just letting the trickster die most of the time?

Edited by Erol of Backford
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

how to bind/join the trickster PC to the rest of the group in lieu of them just letting the trickster die most of the time?

Fair enough. I was just thinking in terms of the alleged problem of trickster power gaming — how this wasn’t true to the concept, and not really a problem, anyway.

In terms of binding the trickster to the group, how is a group usually bound together? If by common aims, that can apply to tricksters, too. OK, the trickster won’t always agree with their colleagues on the right course of action to achieve common ends, and they will sometimes have a hidden agenda, too — but isn’t this true of non-trickster characters? And remember the trickster friend of mortals motif: “Oh, no! Our trickster stole something from the god. — But oh, yes! It is just the tool we need to complete our quest. We will worry about returning it later.”

Are tricksters intrinsically more trouble than characters with honour codes or undead fixations? What about berserk chaos fighters? I mean, it is not as if you have Eurmal themself in the party, just someone touched by Eurmal. (Sometimes, Eurmal may take over, but presumably that would be GM intervention, not player power gaming. And the GM can always drop a rock on the party — trickster or no trickster.)

If a particular trickster is purely inimical or purely random, that sounds like an NPC — to me, anyway.

Why should the party want to put up with the overhead of wrangling a trickster? Well, if a trickster can improvise magic that no one else can do at all, that is useful. But nothing comes for free: it won’t always work, and it may blow up in the trickster’s face — or the party’s. And if no one wants a high body count, play it like Wile E. Coyote: the Road Runner is always fine and Wile E. always lives to fight another day.

IMHO, the players don’t need to worry (on behalf of their characters or their own fun) about having a trickster onboard. The player characters probably should worry a bit, though.

You have a player who wants to try a trickster? What is their take? Never mind my rubbish.

  • Like 1

NOTORIOUS VØID CULTIST

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

This could be arbitrarily complicated, or it could be very simple: the trickster player says what is supposed to happen, then the GM rolls a D4 or D6 to determine the number of things which go wrong and narrates whatever she thinks is amusing. If the GM cannot be trusted — perish the thought — draw misfire effects from a deck of cards. Elaborate to taste, for example allowing more control over weaker magics. So, for example, a trickster describes a weakened version of an effect she should be able to pull off, so the GM rolls D6-2, rolls a 4, and draws 2 misfire effects from the deck. You don’t need a special deck, just a table, which can be improvised on the spot, if need be (e.g. as a way of stake setting).

This way, you can have a trickster character who can cause carnage but not to order, and so cannot be a munchkin because the player lacks sufficient control. To me, this sounds like more fun than playing a bonded trickster — I would keep bonded tricksters for NPCs, but some will like putting on the gimp mask and the leash.

An illuminated trickster is fine, but what would they be like? Think Zorak Zoran, who saw the light but wound up more erratic than he was before: more power perhaps, but even less control. Even if an illuminated trickster is not spotted as an illuminant, they might be spotted as a trickster when their reality distortion field goes on the fritz.

Playing a trickster is pretty deadly so I would reserve this for tricksters who are treating their magic like a source of power, rather than doing their best to amuse their god with their antics.

Or you could play a mythos style system, subtract the number of rune points or learned feats from a hundred, then roll under that number for everything to go right :-). A trickster with a hundred rune points of magic would be fearsome source of disorder 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, EricW said:

subtract the number of rune points … from a hundred, then roll under … for everything to go right … A trickster with a hundred rune points of magic would be fearsome source of disorder

Yes, something like that, but how many rune points or feats is a character likely to have? I suspect things would not go wrong often enough. I mean, Wile E.’s ACME “magic” always goes wrong, and he hasn’t even managed to fry one little bird, yet. Or maybe it is the Road Runner we should be scared of.

—————————————

… plus trickster magic has to go wrong frequently, so they have plausible deniability when they do stab you in the back.

Edited by mfbrandi
plausible deniability
  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

NOTORIOUS VØID CULTIST

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Yes, something like that, but how many rune points or feats is a character likely to have? I suspect things would not go wrong often enough. I mean, Wile E.’s ACME “magic” always goes wrong, and he hasn’t even managed to fry one little bird, yet. Or maybe it is the Road Runner we should be scared of.

—————————————

… plus trickster magic has to go wrong frequently, so they have plausible deniability when they do stab you in the back.

Trickster magic frequently causes things to go wrong without the help of unexpected effects if the PC is playing it right 🙂

Seriously you don’t need unexpected effects for a PC trickster to get into a lot of trouble. Mastery of stealth skills comes quickly to trickster PCs.

Consider the spell “Trickster gift”, which causes a random attribute change which you hope will wear off in 15 minutes. Witnesses have to roll int x 5 or collapse laughing.

Edited by EricW
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I'll have to double think the PC, could be loads of fun but afraid it will upset the rest of the group... maybe to start each session stating that this particular PC is "special" but how to bind/join the trickster PC to the rest of the group in lieu of them just letting the trickster die most of the time?

I've had players with Trickster characters in the past, and generally they approached the character as satirists - figures who felt it was their job to poke fun at society and important/pompous figures, to play jokes that both caused humor and at the same time diverted bad things from happening, to seduce or entice others with wild schemes, and to come up with out-of-the-ordinary plans.  (You can probably figure out more-or-less what Trickster archetypes those fall into.)  That approach worked in concert with other PC's reasonably well.  As you move into more destructive and murderous aspects of the Trickster, I feel it gets harder to play and harder for others to interact with.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is there a list of Trickster Shrines, a travel log of sorts? Possibly they are near most tribal gathering points or near towns of say 2000+ (but likely at the outskirts?)

Spoiler

I recall reading of a random appearing tent? in the Rubble, another inside Snakepipe Hollow and a third appearing as a traveling show like a circus and everyone had things stolen from them when they woke up  the next morning. What was the name of the group that had dancing skeletons and a small giant playing drums? I like that idea a good bit. Would these traveling locations/shows not be a shrine or temple. Obviously the one in the Rubble is but what of the others? Would they need a sacred Trickster item like a Humakti Golden Sword to be "shrines"?

 

  • Helpful 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

What was the name of the group

I think you are referencing Bundalini's Traveling Circus.  If I recall correctly it appears in the HQG Sartar Companion (possibly in one of the HW/HQ1 era books too?, though originally was in KoDP).  

34 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Is there a list of Trickster Shrines, a travel log of sorts?

Not to my knowledge.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Is there a list of Trickster Shrines, a travel log of sorts?.....

  Hide contents

.... Would they need a sacred Trickster item like a Humakti Golden Sword to be "shrines"?

 

As I understand it a shrine might have a sacred item, but dpes not have to: as alternatives it might mark a place where Eurmal did something, or where a great Eurmali did something famous, or it might just have a congregation who want a place to worship without having to use rune points.  It might be mobile, there are other Gloranthan precedents for that.

Since Tricksters are outlaws unless they have a protector...And since three tricksters together are a conspiracy...Even a Trickster would not be foolish enough to leave such a list where you could get it.  You might think you have such a list but it is a deception, at best a nasty joke.  Maybe someone is being framed.

I would think that a Trickster shrine would be at the lower end of shrine size.  Maybe ten worshippers.  Maybe it is a box carried around by the senior initiate, with cult items like practical joke tools.   Each shrine would be able to teach one rune spell, so that is why you see Tricksters on tbe road.

On the other hand an Orlanth temple might have a Eurmal shrine as an associated cult.  You may need a good explanation if you are actually found worshipping there, unless you are an acknowledged Eurmali bound to a protector.  Maybe you could say it was in hope of averting Eurmal's attention, so he would not ruin your happy life.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/9/2022 at 1:21 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Are there any mainstream 1600-1625 Eurmali that are adventurer types might travel with a PC group and not be an outcast or loner?

Narres Runepainter (Starter Set) is one of the RQ Starter Set pre-gens that you can play. They're a tattoo artist in addition to a trickster.

Darvy Blackfeather (Pegasus Plateau) is chieftain of Drakemere, a duck village.

Generally speaking, I think tricksters can have a much broader range of play than most people think. IMHO, John Oliver and most similar politically-inclined comedians are tricksters, "Howling Mad" Murdock from the A-Team is a trickster, David Bowie and Bjork are probably tricksters, at least one of Pippin and Merry is a trickster, Tyrion Lannister is a trickster, etc. There are more options to playing a trickster than a severe case of ADHD combined with antisocial crazy antics, so there are many options to integrate a trickster to an adventuring party.

 

On 10/9/2022 at 1:21 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Eurmal teaching men to speak to dragons- if so where and when?

Possibly this, from King of Sartar, page 78:

One day Eurmal found a new way to betray his master. He found a foolish man, and he split his tongue, the way that a bird’s tongue can be split to make it talk. And he also split the man’s brain, and his heart. That way the man would understand dragon speech.

(there's a few more paragraphs to the story...thanks to @jajagappa for pointing in the right direction). There's also some of this story in the Guide, page 132.

 

On 10/9/2022 at 1:21 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Eurmal Great Temple in Slontos - where is it or would it have been, has it been roughly located on any map?

AFAICT this is the same thing as the Trickster School of Thanor, which was located in Slontos, and which you mention later in your message. There's a map of second age Slontos in the Guide (page 351), and the equivalent "modern day" map too of course (page 357), in which Thanor is mostly under water, somewhere in the middle of the Wenelian Isles.

 

On 10/9/2022 at 1:21 PM, Erol of Backford said:

The God Learners had a Great Temple to Eurmal, where they collected every single RuneSpell that Eurmal taught and made them available to all the Eurmali in the Great Temple in Slontos. Where is there a cult write up besides in the Gods of Gloranth book and is there some source for the possible full list of spells?

I don't know that the God Learners were actually teaching all the trickster spells to everybody (that wouldn't be the first time they did something reckless and stupid) but they did "study the various incarnations of the trickster god", so it's safe to say that you had all the types of tricksters there, having kombucha together. I would simply start with all the spells described in RQG's Eurmal write-up. With more than 20 special Rune spells, that's more than enough as far as I'm concerned.

 

On 10/9/2022 at 1:21 PM, Erol of Backford said:

...which may have sunk under the weight of Trickster magical abuses, when they obtained access to the full range of Eurmal's divine spells. How deep is it below the surface, are there some spaces which still have air, who are the inhabitants? "Still populated by the descendants of the original Eurmali."

Where did you get this quote from? The Guide only says that it's mostly underwater, and populated by schools of fish and Ludoch.

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/9/2022 at 9:21 PM, Erol of Backford said:

How deep is it below the surface, are there some spaces which still have air, who are the inhabitants? "Still populated by the descendants of the original Eurmali."

1 hour ago, Lordabdul said:

Where did you get this quote from? The Guide only says that it's mostly underwater, and populated by schools of fish and Ludoch.

The only source I can find is @soltakss in a recent thread here: 

But it's obvious that their descendents do still survive in the sunken temple, because that's the awesome answer.

Edited by PhilHibbs
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Lordabdul said:

Narres Runepainter

We can work with this but not sure about face tattoos? (this guy seems to be haunting me from the early 80's)

image.png.eaa80e8b481c2a216e07df71beaa973f.png

5 hours ago, Lordabdul said:

tricksters can have a much broader range of play than most people think

So they could be craftsmen or entertainers as a profession and belong to the trickster cult in lieu of Donandar?

Did she lay an egg!? Lol...

image.png.b59df92524295863563e8acd7979005f.png

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Lordabdul said:

Where did you get this quote from?

It was from Mr. Soltakss' post as you thought.

 

5 hours ago, Lordabdul said:

Guide (page 351)

I tried to overlay the old and new maps but had a little trouble, will take another look.

hqdefault.jpg?fbclid=IwAR3EmZnP-s5l6F6L_s7lbLkywT6QSP8600Krq0YsF9y6CIYq4JRCpzrTgV8 Mr. Richard's post... 

My thought is couldn't a trickster carry their own shrine with them, for example their hat or funny slippers/boots/shoes?

And yes there were fish related trickster tasks in the Peterson Campaign book.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

We can work with this but not sure about face tattoos? (this guy seems to be haunting me from the early 80's)

image.png.eaa80e8b481c2a216e07df71beaa973f.png

Looks like a blue-star mage from MZB's Lythande stories. (Originally created for the Thieves' World series, then morphed into a bit of dimension jumping traveller as MZB separated Lythande from Thieves' World).

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Lordabdul said:

I don't know that the God Learners were actually teaching all the trickster spells to everybody (that wouldn't be the first time they did something reckless and stupid) but they did "study the various incarnations of the trickster god", so it's safe to say that you had all the types of tricksters there, having kombucha together. I would simply start with all the spells described in RQG's Eurmal write-up. With more than 20 special Rune spells, that's more than enough as far as I'm concerned.

You can trickster spells up as you go - like I just made up "Trickster Gift" - which causes a random attribute change which you hope will wear off in 15 minutes. Witnesses have to roll int x 5 or collapse laughing.

Or "Eurmal's Harmony" - area effect spell, causes everyone to talk over each other and leave the meeting with the impression that everyone agreed to everything they suggested.

Or "Telefart" - causes a stink to appear at a chosen location within line of sight of the caster.

Or "Eurmal's Flight Spell". This one actually allows the trickster to fly, but requires the user eat a bowl of beans or a hot spicy dish before attempting the spell.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/13/2022 at 1:39 PM, Baron Wulfraed said:

Looks like a blue-star mage from MZB's Lythande stories. (Originally created for the Thieves' World series, then morphed into a bit of dimension jumping traveller as MZB separated Lythande from Thieves' World).

For my game, the Blue Star magi have become a small group of Annilla/Blue Moon connected sorcerers, who must all commit to keeping (their particular) secret to maintain their powers, and are obsessed with collecting secret knowledge. They are not Tricksters, far from it. 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I'd like to know more about this group Mr. Cakes!? I actually like the idea of a serious trickster who uses illusions like a sorcerer would to gain their desired end, whatever that might be?

For the /original/ Blue Star mages, check Amazon for collection(s) of MZB's Lythande stories; DaveCake's take appears to have been to assign them a Lunar society role.

Spoiler

Lythande is an anomaly: She managed to get through training while hiding her gender -- Blue Star was a male-only society. So that might count as a trickster aspect! That's her real secret, but she also has a geas to not be seen eating by men

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...