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Lodril in Sartar?


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On 10/13/2022 at 5:05 PM, Jeff said:

Lodril is deeply involved in the myths of Asrelia, a comic rival of Orlanth …, and is the father of Ernalda and Maran Gor.

Asrelia in her underworld aspect would in some respects make a good pairing with Lodril, but we are told (e.g. in GRoY) that Oria is the wife of Lodril. Oria is just Esrola by another name — the “sister” of Ernalda and Maran Gor. So is Lodril married to his own daughter? It is exactly the sort of thing a god would do. Is Esrola omitted from the list above as not important in the context of Sartar, because she has a different father (or no father), out of squeamishness, or for some other reason?

Of course, sometimes, mother and daughter Earth goddesses are seen as aspects of the same goddess, and this might reduce the squick for some. However, we then ask: in what sense is Lodril the father of some of the earth goddesses? Does he just bring out some aspects of the earth goddess by being the fire in/heat of the earth? Lodril’s “marriage” to the earth is just a blending of elemental powers. Sounds like it might work …

In the myth Ernalda and the Golden Age, we read:

Quote

Asrelia retired. The Queen divided up her earthly goods between her most important daughters …

Maran Gor became the goddess of … landslides, earthquakes, volcanoes, … autumn and disease …

Esrola became the goddess of the earth’s bounty. Children, food, sexual desire, and blood are her domain and she is known by many names to many peoples …

Ernalda was acclaimed Queen of the Earth for her spiritual and magical powers were far greater than her sisters. Her power is not found in solid things but in actions, rules, ceremonies and families.

Weirdly, by the Glorantha Sourcebook (pp. 89–90), Ernalda has become the bountiful patron of sex and Esrola is seemingly downgraded to mere matter. A bit of a power grab, there, as presumably Ernalda gets to keep her magical, spiritual, and social aspects. Of course, sexy Ernalda does sound more like a daughter/wife of Lodril than the Ernalda of the division of powers myth.

Is the Esrola rôle on its way out, which would leave Lodril as father-in-law of and co-husband with Orlanth — as well as the father of Caladra & Aurelion, Oakfed, Gustbran, Mahome, and Quivin, and father-in-law of Barntar (who is Orlanth, anyway? — I lose track). No wonder insecure Orlanth wants him sent up.

Edited by mfbrandi
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11 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

I anticipate images of Lodril with his phallus replaced by/depicted as a plough — or is even that too much to hope for?

Not what you were asking for, but we do have a picture of a diphallic Lodril shrine image in Citizens of the Lunar Empire.

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5 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Not what you were asking for, but we do have a picture of a diphallic Lodril shrine image in Citizens of the Lunar Empire.

Yeah, I was thinking ‘please, not another dick pic’ and you say ‘here, two for the price of one — never mind the quality, feel the …’

I bring these things on myself. Oi!

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9 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Not what you were asking for, but we do have a picture of a diphallic Lodril shrine image in Citizens of the Lunar Empire.

Its funny, but I have a soft spot for Lodril really. Is my opinion that he is more like us that most of gods "most of us like sex, drink and eat with friends and family or celebrate, even working to live not living to work" and I am eager to read the cults book to create an adventurer. 

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20 minutes ago, Jose said:

Its funny, but I have a soft spot for Lodril really. Is my opinion that he is more like us that most of gods "most of us like sex, drink and eat with friends and family or celebrate, even working to live not living to work" and I am eager to read the cults book to create an adventurer. 

Oh, the Lodril priest in Citizens is a lovely character. (Awful to his daughter-in-law, of course). "Cyriel is always ready to share his opinion on three subjects as if they were central tenets of the Cult of Lodril, as indeed they might be. Young men these days have no idea how to do a hard day's work for a fair day's pay. Men who live in Glamour are completely soft. They have no idea how hard life is back in Doblian. And a woman's place is in the home. The bosses, though, they are the worst. All back handers with the Associations or fixed by the Senate. If they carry on as they are, there'll be a smouldering rebellion, that is for sure..."   

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7 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Young men these days have no idea how to do a hard day's work for a fair day's pay. Men who live in Glamour are completely soft. They have no idea how hard life is back in Doblian. And a woman's place is in the home. The bosses, though, they are the worst. All back handers with the Associations or fixed by the Senate.

So, Alf Garnett, then?

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12 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

So, Alf Garnett, then?

No, he's in Apartment IV/5.

Quote

"... And Ureus the Trollkin. Sneaking around, spying on decent Lunar women with his 'see in the dark' vision. Troublemakers, the whole bloody lot of them. Do you know what he'd do? Crucify the whole lot of them. Nail them up, it's the only language they understand. Moonson Ignifer, now he had the right idea, and he doesn't care who knows it."

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1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

The description of Cyriel does seem somewhat poignant and yet common place by a large minority of citizens now days?

That's the genius of Citizens. Seriously, if you haven't read it yet, it's well worth a look.

Citizens of the Lunar Empire, by Chris Gidlow: $19.95 for 174 pages, at the Jonstown Compendium; also available as a print-on-demand hardcover.
The book has 27  ratings and ten rave reviews.

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8 hours ago, Jose said:

Its funny, but I have a soft spot for Lodril really. Is my opinion that he is more like us that most of gods

I think you are supposed to (even though the Yelmies and the Orlanthi are always running him down). He is a bit of a Thor character — not the Marvel version, who is up himself — a sky god concerned with fertility and humanity and married to the earth. It is cheeky how Orlanth — as part of Air’s usurpation of Sky — steals functions and family from Lodril while justifying it by the awfulness of Yelm. (Dayzatar, as always, is keeping well out of it.)

But I suppose there is also a case for treating Dayzatar (completely withdrawn), Yelm (snooty), and Lodril (down the pub) as aspects of the same god — as we sometimes do with the many Earth goddesses.

Edited by mfbrandi
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On 10/13/2022 at 8:23 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

Somehow I never picked up that this is his role in the Orlanthi pantheon, I've always seen her as sorta sprung out of Asrelia through parthenogenesis or something, but then maybe the Earth temples just like to downplay that aspect in art since it's usually not hugely relevant to them?

That's the way it used to be, and the way that I prefer it. I am not really keen on the "everyone has to have a father" approach, but I suppose Lodril is as good as any.

In my Glorantha, though, they have no father.

On 10/14/2022 at 6:20 AM, Jose said:

What do you think is Tada's Cudgel? 😬

Tada's Cudgel, Lodril's Mattock, Doburdan's Addi, all are representations of the deity's endowment.

On 10/14/2022 at 2:12 PM, svensson said:

I really don't see Lodril being worshiped in Sartar at all.

But, he can still have shrines that a Lodril worshipper can visit.

Some large temples have Shrines to Associate Deities that, themselves, have Shrines to their Associate Deities.

Yelmalio is associated with Yelm, so a large enough Yelmalio Temple might have a big Yelm Shrine that has a small Shrine to Lodril.

Esrola is an Associate Deity of Ernalda, so Ernalda temples might have an Esrola Shrine that contains a Lodril Shrine.

Mahome is an Associate Deity of Ernalda, and her Shrine may well have a Shrine to Lodril and to Gustbran and Oakfed.

 

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22 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I am not really keen on the "everyone has to have a father" approach, but I suppose Lodril is as good as any.

Taken literally, I don’t like it either, but if we take the sex & gender assignments out of it, if we take the younger generation of Earth goddesses as manifestations of Asrelia (not literal daughters), and if we allow warmth = life & Fire + Earth -> earthquakes & volcanoes, then it makes a lot of sense. To the extent that I was looking through old sources trying to find Lodril cited as the father — and not just to annoy the Orlanth fanboys, obviously —, having missed it in Jeff’s comment.

But yeah, Fire/warmth or Air/breath coded male coming to blows to see who gets to bring life to poor old barren Earth coded female is a big yawn.

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6 hours ago, soltakss said:

But, he can still have shrines that a Lodril worshipper can visit.

Some large temples have Shrines to Associate Deities that, themselves, have Shrines to their Associate Deities.

Yelmalio is associated with Yelm, so a large enough Yelmalio Temple might have a big Yelm Shrine that has a small Shrine to Lodril.

Esrola is an Associate Deity of Ernalda, so Ernalda temples might have an Esrola Shrine that contains a Lodril Shrine.

Mahome is an Associate Deity of Ernalda, and her Shrine may well have a Shrine to Lodril and to Gustbran and Oakfed.

 

I'm not saying it's utterly impossible for somebody to worship Lodril in Sartar. I'm saying that it's highly unlikely that a native would worship him [his portfolio is more than adequately covered by native gods] and any foreign worshipers of Lodril are going to have very little support.... less support than even 7M or Waha worshipers would have.

When we were all discussing Odayla vs. Yinkin as a hunter deity, @Jeff said that there were something like 300 initiates of Odayla in all of Sartar, with a like number of Yinkin initiates. And these deities have a MUCH larger footprint Sartarite culture than Lodril does. Using that as a logical base for supposition, there's probably less than 50 initiates of Lodril... probably less.

And all that is JUST FINE. You don't expect to find a Yinkin shrine in Esrolia or an Odayla shrine in Dara Happa. Those places are simply too far from the deities' center of power.

And for Orlanth's sake, WHY would there be a specific shrine to the God of Wildfires in Sartar? One combined shrine to The Lowfires would handle every bit of what little worship Oakfed has in Sartar. Mahome and Gustbran are FAR more culturally important than the Patron of Forest Fires in Dragon Pass.

Seriously, why are we even having this 'Outlier Oddball Deity of the Day' debate? What's next? Somebody deciding that Dorasta ought to have a full priestess at Clearwine and that Ompalam requires more representation in Boldhome?

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3 hours ago, svensson said:

Seriously, why are we even having this 'Outlier Oddball Deity of the Day' debate? What's next? Somebody deciding that Dorasta ought to have a full priestess at Clearwine and that Ompalam requires more representation in Boldhome?

We’re discussing what role (if any) Lodril has in Sartar (and elsewhere) to empower players and game masters to do original and creative things in Glorantha. Not to crush them beneath the dead weight of orthodoxy. I’ve learned some interesting things from this two page chat, and I hope you have too.

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I'm not trying to 'crush' anyone, Nick.

Since we are discussing 'what role, if any' I'm supporting my position of 'logically Lodril would have little or no role'.

I'm an absolute fan of 'YGMV' and Rule One, if something makes your game more fun then have at it with my enthusiastic blessing [not that you need it]. After all, no set of game rules or milieu writing survives contact with player characters anyway.

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5 hours ago, svensson said:

my position of 'logically Lodril would have little or no role'.

The sensual or lazy, lust-ridden farmer.  🙂 

While we all know that Orlanth Thunderous and Barntar are the favored farmers gods, Lodril warms and plows the Earth.  This is his position throughout Peloria.  But for those PC's in Sartar who happen to have a high Fire Rune that would work.  Maybe it's a rare individual, maybe it's one family in a clan, and the magic is weak as there's only the shrine for Lodril as Husband-Protector at the Earth temple, but the individual or family have the honor of serving as one of the Wicked Uncles who gathers the boys for initiation (e.g. see 2 – The Uncles – Prince of Sartar ).

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1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

The sensual or lazy, lust-ridden farmer.  🙂 

While we all know that Orlanth Thunderous and Barntar are the favored farmers gods, Lodril warms and plows the Earth.  This is his position throughout Peloria.  But for those PC's in Sartar who happen to have a high Fire Rune that would work.  Maybe it's a rare individual, maybe it's one family in a clan, and the magic is weak as there's only the shrine for Lodril as Husband-Protector at the Earth temple, but the individual or family have the honor of serving as one of the Wicked Uncles who gathers the boys for initiation (e.g. see 2 – The Uncles – Prince of Sartar ).

6 hours ago, svensson said:

 

I think Eurmal and Yinkin have 'lazy' pretty well covered and Orlanth can give lessons on 'lusty' to anybody. 🤣

I'm not saying it's impossible for Lodril to have some representation. How much representation is entirely up to you and your group. IMG, I'd guess about 25-50 initiates in all of Sartar, with one Husband-Protector shrine in one of the tribal Ernalda temples and one actual Priest associated who is able to initiate followers. And maybe one roving God-Talker who tries to get around the the steadings of worshipers once a season or so.

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3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The sensual or lazy, lust-ridden farmer.

People say he is lazy — and we all like to laze about from time to time — but mostly it is his detractors who say this. I mean, he made the Gods Wall, and that seems like a bit of an undertaking. Fire types are not big on praising change/innovation (because Air associated?), but when we read things like “made the first cylinder seal” (GRoY — somewhere), I think we are probably not going too far if we say invented the cylinder seal. So a deity of farming, but also of invention, innovation, civil engineering (irrigation), and generally getting the job done. If getting the job done with minimum effort, all the better. I hadn’t given Lodril much thought before this thread, but he does seem to be a maligned character.

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On 10/13/2022 at 11:05 AM, Jeff said:

Lodril is deeply involved in the myths of Asrelia, a comic rival of Orlanth (who gets depicted as a fat red-faced drunken fool whose phallus drags on the ground), and is the father of Ernalda and Maran Gor.

What about Greg's statement in WF#9 that all the Earth goddess births were parthenogenic? Did he change his mind on that later, or is it one of those "both are true" situations?

Edited by Richard S.
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2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

People say he is lazy — and we all like to laze about from time to time — but mostly it is his detractors who say this. I mean, he made the Gods Wall, and that seems like a bit of an undertaking. Fire types are not big on praising change/innovation (because Air associated?), but when we read things like “made the first cylinder seal” (GRoY — somewhere), I think we are probably not going too far if we say invented the cylinder seal. So a deity of farming, but also of invention, innovation, civil engineering (irrigation), and generally getting the job done. If getting the job done with minimum effort, all the better. I hadn’t given Lodril much thought before this thread, but he does seem to be a maligned character.

Yeah, I've always interpreted the comments about Lodril as basically upper-class chauvinism and classism. Of course the aristos think the peasantry and servants are lazy and indulgent. It's a meta-comment on Dara Happan/Solar society more than a comment on Lodril himself. I assume Caladralander culture contextualizes things differently. "Yeah, Lodril is the best farmer because his granary is always full and he can shower his in-laws with beer and pork. Check out that gut! What an absolute legend."

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58 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Both are true.

Or all three things. Or it depends how you look at it. Or … Even within the WF9 article (p. 4), we have:

  • “An aetiological myth from the western lands tells that Genert fathered many goddesses upon his sister Gata, and that they are the local earth goddesses found everywhere.”
  • Sisters (dark/light) and the three generations (daughter/mother/crone) “in myth and religion” may be treated as one entity … or different entities.
  • “Finally, all of the births of the different goddesses by each other are parthenogenetic, or virgin births.”

If I’d looked harder, I would possibly have found more perspectives.

The in-game takeaway is likely that which story gets told depends on who is telling it, the purpose for which they are telling it, and on the context in which they are telling it — cult secrets; different (incompatible) tales for different public rites of the same cult; different aetiological myths depending on what you are trying to explain; und so weiter … — so just jam on the themes as required.

Up here in the metaland of playerville, we don’t have to think there is one or any “really true truth”. Just root for what will wind up your rivals and enemies … just like your characters in-game.

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9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Yeah, I've always interpreted the comments about Lodril as basically upper-class chauvinism and classism. Of course the aristos think the peasantry and servants are lazy and indulgent. It's a meta-comment on Dara Happan/Solar society more than a comment on Lodril himself. I

I wonder what the Storm cults opinion on Lodril would be then. A nasty uncle who was willing to harm his nephews out of fear and jealousy? Would they be aware of any of Lodril's positive deeds they would at least know him as the father of Quiven and Ernalda (unless the myth about Lodril being her father never reached sartar). At a glance his wild tendencies could be respected by the equally wild Storm cults

Edited by Ironwall
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In a practical sense, the shrines to Lodril in Sartar are likely to be tucked into the corners of temples to the Lowfires, an associated cult of all as their father, and even they are going to be pretty rare because most temples to the Lowfires are only going to be shrines anyway. Mahome barely exists as an independent cult most places (though ubiquitous as an Ernalda subcult), Oakfed exists mostly temporarily when some shaman gets a spirit cult together, usually when something or somebody needs burning. Practically, you are mostly looking at cities large enough to have a minimum of 400+ people who are smiths and potters (or at least connected enough to those industries to be lay members) to create at least a major temple to Gustbran.  

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