Lodril in Sartar?

[mfbrandi]

10 hours ago, Ironwall said:

At a glance his wild tendencies could be respected by the equally wild Storm cults

Similarity is not always a basis for getting along, especially if you are competing for the same niche — husband of the earth, maybe. Think of fans of rival local soccer teams or neighbouring biker gangs. The English and the French. North and South London. The narcissism of small differences?

And it must be embarrassing for the Orlanthi to see how they rely on Lodril’s “family.” If Ernalda is a daughter/not-a-daughter of Asrelia, then perhaps Gustbran is a son/not-a-son of Lodril. Volcano god = smith god — that looks like something we’ve seen before, doesn’t it?

But they are hardly going to do without fire, warmth, and bronze, are they? Although I am reminded of a tale a college friend told of mad hippies in Australia’s Northern Territory and their splinter groups’ increasing austerities culminating in “freshairtarians” who outdid the vegans by spurning all food — there’s your self-limiting Orlanthi Radical Airy Faction, right there. It is what Glorantha needs: more religious extremism.

[Sir_Godspeed]

12 hours ago, Ironwall said:

I wonder what the Storm cults opinion on Lodril would be then. A nasty uncle who was willing to harm his nephews out of fear and jealousy? Would they be aware of any of Lodril's positive deeds they would at least know him as the father of Quiven and Ernalda (unless the myth about Lodril being her father never reached sartar). At a glance his wild tendencies could be respected by the equally wild Storm cults

I was thinking about this last night before bed, and I went back and forth. In the end I think I came down on a not so terribly exciting, but plausible answer. My impression is that most Sartarites and Heortlanders know of Lodril in mostly this way:

- He's the volcano god.

- He's one of the bad uncles who tested the sons of Umath 

- He's one of the bad uncles, and so every few years someone dresses up as him and have to learn how to make the costume and do the dance or say the lines, etc. 

- He's the father of the Lowfires. 

- He's Ernalda's dad(?) (Not sure how widespread this belief is). 

- Women or Earth-initiates might know him as a lover of the Goddess, a flawed one, I'm sure, as all the lovers are.

To me, most of these indicate that Orlanthi of south-sentral Genertela probably perceive Lodril is a fairly distant, not terribly relevant deity that plays a bit of a role in some founding myths, so more of an elder deity, and plays a bit part in the initiation of young men. He appears to at times be either beneficial or hostile, but overall is just peripheral. 

It's a bit like Hønir or someone like that in Norse myth. They're around, but have no immediate significant role in society overall.

I was debating on how the Lunars would change this, but honestly I suspect most people wouldn't know/care. There's no proselytizing. He is not a public symbol of the Empire like the 7M. Obviously this changes if they're people who are more familiar with Peloria as a whole (like some Orlanthi Tarshites, I guess), or indeed Caladraland, but these influences would probably give people different impressions.

For Esrolia the story is a little different, maybe? Southern Esrolia has a close relationship with Caladraland, and the Vent looms above them, so there's a constant reminder and probably semi-regular interation there, through trade, politicking, and general cultural exchange.

[Gallowglass]

My character is from Caladraland, although he mostly grew up in Porthomeka. From what I gather, in the homeland Lodril (Veskarthan) is treated as a war god of sorts, wild and dangerous compared to his children Caladra and Aurelion.
 

I asked the question originally because I wondered if there were any canonical shrines or temples to Lodril in Sartar. I don’t know if our campaign is going to stay in Sartar, but if it does I feel like an interesting character arc might be finding a way to start a Veskarthan temple in Sartar. If Yelmalio can exist alongside the Orlanthi, I don’t see why his dumb uncle couldn’t. He’s a fighter of Chaos, at least in the Holy Country. He has powers beyond what Yelmalio or the Oakfed spirit cult would offer. There’s also the potential for a political alliance with Caladraland if the  Veskarthan cult was allowed to flourish in Sartar.

 

[Eff]

So there are a couple of factors to consider with Lodril here.

Firstly, Lodril is the father of Quivin, who is the tutelary god of the Quivin mountains that form the geographical core of Sartar and are where Boldhome is located. In addition, we can probably presume that, since Sartar himself only receives cultic devotion from the elite as part of the "Orlanth Rex" cult, that Quivin is also the primary tutelary god of Sartar for day-to-day, ordinary people purposes. So Quivin is clearly relevant, possibly highly so.

What does it mean that Lodril is Quivin's father, then? Let's say that this is an objective fact that everyone peering into the Godtime would accept, because there's none of this postmodernist materialist cynicism or what have you in decent Gloranthas. If Lodril is Quivin's father, and Quivin is a cultic presence throughout Sartar, we can presume that Lodril also has some cultic presence from his son's worship, even if it's just as an invoked name. Because everyone will know and acknowledge that Lodril is Quivin's father, even if Lodril is absent a presence in Heortland worship.

But let's say instead, with our nasty contemporary critical-theorist brains, that "Lodril is Quivin's father" is a culturally bound or subjective statement- the people of pre-Sartar looked at the facts, at the ways that they interacted with the god of the big mountains, and concluded that this guy's father was Lodril. From that, we can conclude that they know of Lodril and consider him mythologically important enough that certain mountains are his progeny- that not all the high places belong to Orlanth, some belong to Lodril (just like Stormwalk seems to belong to Storm Bull).

So either way, we come towards a position where there must be some sort of space for Lodril in Sartar. Either Lodril has a cultic space because of Quivin's position in Sartar specifically, or Lodril has a mythic space such that Quivin is understood to be a Lodril-mountain and not an Orlanth-mountain, Larnste-mountain, Kero Fin-type mountain, etc.

The primary way to interpret this so that Lodril has no presence in Sartar, then, is to assume that "Lodril is Quivin's father" is either an out-of-universe statement, a truth which exists only in player knowledge, or that it's an inorganic subjective statement- scholars, poets, or both created this relationship because Quivin needed a father or Lodril needed a son, but they had knowledge of the strange foreign gods of Caladraland and Saird in order to make their compositions, and Lodril is an alien presence on the Sartar soil.

But perhaps the most important factor here is that there is no clear way to resolve this within the ambit of our existing sources, we are dependent on an interpretative framework to make our resolutions. So ultimately, the presence or absence of Lodril in Sartar is up to you!

(Note that Lodril appears in the King of Sartar myth of "the first camp" as Veskarthan, as a friend of Umath. Note also this quote from Greg Stafford, in re "evil uncles" in the ritual of Orlanth initiation:)

 

Quote

On the given day creatures, spirits of “Those ones” show up and take the boys away. The mothers are supposed to show fear and anxiety. Indeed they ought, for sometimes the lads will never return. The creatures are men in masks and costumes who have performed rituals to be the “liminal porters.” In this role their identity is less important that their role, and so there is always variance on how these Those Ones appear. Most groups tend to be traditional, with the uncles of Orlanth being prominent among them, or with other entities of the pantheon who the boys will have seen in public rites but who are unknown. But sometimes the costumes have no known analogue in the worship, and may even seem simply bizarre (the walking haystack of Apple Lane, whose straws are colored yellow on top, green in the central band and black along the bottom is one such unique.)

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/greg-sez/orlanthi-initiation-rites/

(Of course, neither source- King of Sartar's myths, Greg Stafford- is really what you'd call a reliable one.)

[Erol of Backford]

9 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

If Yelmalio can exist alongside the Orlanthi, I don’t see why his dumb uncle couldn’t.

Moreover, I recall where farmers are repressed there is a long term festering Lodri spell (see below) that allows farmers to rise up... in secret. There are definitely Lodri shrines in the Lands of the Sun in Sun County.

We all know that in all places Glorantha one place stands out where farmers are, emotionally, sexually and financially repressed... Lodril must be there as he is what they subconsciously wish to be like.

Belvani secretly worships Lodri - the bad uncle with a big spear. Monster Man

 

Smoldering Rebellion l point
Ritual Summon, One-use
This is a secret, long-term spell which has a life of its own. When
a priest has been offended by his land’s ruler beyond recourse,
he can perform this ritual. Once POW has been put into the
spell, and the miscreant ruler named, the spell dwells on the
spirit plane. If the ruler continues in his wicked ways, other
priests and acolytes are inspired to sacrifice to this spell, which
thus feeds and grows. Naturally, with every crime the ruler
commits, more priests are inspired to put POW into this spell.
As the spell gets stronger and stronger, each point adds to the
final effect, which requires hundreds of POW points to have
any chance of acting at all. No one knows just how many points
of POW are needed, and different rulers may require different
sizes of spell. However, once initiated, it cannot be dispelled. It
waits and grows until the ruler permanently retires or dies, or
the spell activates. No one knows exactly what sets off the spell’s
effects, but “when the grey dog rises, the black cock crows thrice
at midnight, and the invisible bell tolls, all men march off to
revenge.” Only when the spell takes effect, the whole land’s
peasant population rises in revolt. The spell was last effected in

1460 (Lunar time 4/51) when Darjiin and the Lunar Heartlands
rose against Sheng Seleris. Since then the Lunar emperor has
always been careful to respect the rights and privileges of the
common people.

 

[Leingod]

Looking a bit in the Book of Heortling Mythology, Quivin's father is named both as Lodril and as Vestkarthan. On page 169, Vestkarthan has a short write-up as follows:

Quote

Vestkarthan: A great and lusty fighter of the Fire Tribe known for his ability to consume great quantities of anything. He was once a friend of Umath's, and is the father of Orlanth's half-brother Quivin, but he was defeated in the Darkness when he tried to harm the Earth that was under Orlanth's and Maran's protection

Lodril also has a write-up on page 166, but all it says is that he is an enemy god of the Fire Tribe "known for his ability to consume great quantities of anything," like Veskarthan.

Lodril is also mentioned by that name a few other times: It's mentioned that Urox gored him during the Darkness, one of many deeds that made that era worse, that he was one of those who pleaded with Yelm and Orlanth to make their bid for friendship in the Underworld (a list that also includes Issaries, Ernalda, Dendara, and Chalana Arroy).

Veskarthan has more mentions, with things like his wooing Ernalda but ultimately falling short "because of his greed." Interestingly here he is considered a member of the Earth Tribe (the myth, "Ernalda's Other Husbands," says her other Husband-Protectors besides Orlanth failed because of either jealousy, greed, or fear, and claims that greed is the failing of the Earth Tribe, as jealousy is for the Fire Tribe and fear for the Dark Tribe).  Perhaps the reference above to Vestkarthan being a friend of Umath is due to his role in the myth "The First Hospitality," which IIRC is  told in some other book with Orlanth and Quivin reprising their father's roles. His being Gustbran's father is also mentioned, and in the myth of the Dawn he is mentioned as taking over the role of tending the fire as everyone wakes up.

Quivin himself is mentioned fairly little, at least in a personified form. There's a myth where a raven was born when Quivin stared at a mountaintop and became his spy, there's the one about Thorgeir's cow that isn't really about Quivin himself, and an offhand mention of how he was defeated by Vadrus but freed by Orlanth for the sake of their shared mother, Kero Fin.

For the most part, then, Lodril/Vestkarthan is more of a name in Sartar than anything, a figure invoked in certain myths and rituals and a genealogical tie for certain deities to the Storm Tribe (i.e. mostly the Lowfires and Quivin) but not worshiped in his own right. He also seems to vacillate between foe and friend, dependent on the particulars of the myth he's in, but is nonetheless recognized as being kin. That would put him in a similar boat as the likes of Yelmalio, and so could make his worship at least grudgingly tolerable to most Sartarites. This is probably all more relevant in Heortland than Sartar, which is closer to Caladraland, but it might have been carried over nonetheless.

I seem to recall reading in older sources that some of the Vendref worship Lodril/Vestkarthan rather than Barntar. This is likely no longer the case canonically, but you could easily reintroduce it as a thing in your Glorantha if you wanted, and his worship might have a small presence in western Sartar (perhaps with a small shrine at Clearwine in its Earth Temple) as a direct result of this influence, since the western Sartarites have had at least sporadic interactions with the Vendref over the centuries.

On 10/16/2022 at 1:07 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

Yeah, I've always interpreted the comments about Lodril as basically upper-class chauvinism and classism. Of course the aristos think the peasantry and servants are lazy and indulgent. It's a meta-comment on Dara Happan/Solar society more than a comment on Lodril himself. I assume Caladralander culture contextualizes things differently. "Yeah, Lodril is the best farmer because his granary is always full and he can shower his in-laws with beer and pork. Check out that gut! What an absolute legend."

Very much so. The average Lodrili farmer has a hard lot in life. His work is long, arduous, and utterly thankless where the old Yelmic nobility is concerned. He has to take what chances for leisure he can find, and make what small joy and comfort he can create, and at every turn he's castigated and mocked for it as a lazy, lusty good-for-nothing by the stuffy, self-righteous prigs he has to call his superiors. He strips down because his work is hot and sweaty, and is reviled as lewd and shameless. He takes a break or paces himself because it's better the work get done slowly than not at all, and is punished as a shiftless layabout. He drinks and makes merry to wind down from a stressful day, and is castigated as a slovenly drunkard with no self-control.

In fact the Pelorian farmers are no less hard-working and productive (more so, even) than their Heortling counterparts, and yet the latter are, as a group, held up as exemplars in their own society, simply because the kings and nobles of the Heortlings aren't nearly so insulated from the realities of rural agriculture and so don't apply a bunch of ridiculous and unrealistic expectations to it (they instead save that for other things).

[Jeff]

16 hours ago, Leingod said:

Looking a bit in the Book of Heortling Mythology, Quivin's father is named both as Lodril and as Vestkarthan. On page 169, Vestkarthan has a short write-up as follows:

Lodril also has a write-up on page 166, but all it says is that he is an enemy god of the Fire Tribe "known for his ability to consume great quantities of anything," like Veskarthan.

Lodril is also mentioned by that name a few other times: It's mentioned that Urox gored him during the Darkness, one of many deeds that made that era worse, that he was one of those who pleaded with Yelm and Orlanth to make their bid for friendship in the Underworld (a list that also includes Issaries, Ernalda, Dendara, and Chalana Arroy).

Veskarthan has more mentions, with things like his wooing Ernalda but ultimately falling short "because of his greed." Interestingly here he is considered a member of the Earth Tribe (the myth, "Ernalda's Other Husbands," says her other Husband-Protectors besides Orlanth failed because of either jealousy, greed, or fear, and claims that greed is the failing of the Earth Tribe, as jealousy is for the Fire Tribe and fear for the Dark Tribe).  Perhaps the reference above to Vestkarthan being a friend of Umath is due to his role in the myth "The First Hospitality," which IIRC is  told in some other book with Orlanth and Quivin reprising their father's roles. His being Gustbran's father is also mentioned, and in the myth of the Dawn he is mentioned as taking over the role of tending the fire as everyone wakes up.

Quivin himself is mentioned fairly little, at least in a personified form. There's a myth where a raven was born when Quivin stared at a mountaintop and became his spy, there's the one about Thorgeir's cow that isn't really about Quivin himself, and an offhand mention of how he was defeated by Vadrus but freed by Orlanth for the sake of their shared mother, Kero Fin.

For the most part, then, Lodril/Vestkarthan is more of a name in Sartar than anything, a figure invoked in certain myths and rituals and a genealogical tie for certain deities to the Storm Tribe (i.e. mostly the Lowfires and Quivin) but not worshiped in his own right. He also seems to vacillate between foe and friend, dependent on the particulars of the myth he's in, but is nonetheless recognized as being kin. That would put him in a similar boat as the likes of Yelmalio, and so could make his worship at least grudgingly tolerable to most Sartarites. This is probably all more relevant in Heortland than Sartar, which is closer to Caladraland, but it might have been carried over nonetheless.

I seem to recall reading in older sources that some of the Vendref worship Lodril/Vestkarthan rather than Barntar. This is likely no longer the case canonically, but you could easily reintroduce it as a thing in your Glorantha if you wanted, and his worship might have a small presence in western Sartar (perhaps with a small shrine at Clearwine in its Earth Temple) as a direct result of this influence, since the western Sartarites have had at least sporadic interactions with the Vendref over the centuries.

Very much so. The average Lodrili farmer has a hard lot in life. His work is long, arduous, and utterly thankless where the old Yelmic nobility is concerned. He has to take what chances for leisure he can find, and make what small joy and comfort he can create, and at every turn he's castigated and mocked for it as a lazy, lusty good-for-nothing by the stuffy, self-righteous prigs he has to call his superiors. He strips down because his work is hot and sweaty, and is reviled as lewd and shameless. He takes a break or paces himself because it's better the work get done slowly than not at all, and is punished as a shiftless layabout. He drinks and makes merry to wind down from a stressful day, and is castigated as a slovenly drunkard with no self-control.

In fact the Pelorian farmers are no less hard-working and productive (more so, even) than their Heortling counterparts, and yet the latter are, as a group, held up as exemplars in their own society, simply because the kings and nobles of the Heortlings aren't nearly so insulated from the realities of rural agriculture and so don't apply a bunch of ridiculous and unrealistic expectations to it (they instead save that for other things).

A few points on the "vendref" - the cultural material on the Grazelands in KoS is largely from the Pony Breeders perspective from before the Feathered Horse Queens became rulers. So although Lodril is mentioned as one of the "vendref deities," this is likely a reference to Pelorian lowlanders that fled to Dragon Pass during the wars of Sheng Seleris. For more than a hundred years, the fortunes of the Grazelanders were closely linked with the of Sartar - it is worth remembering that every Feathered Horse Queen since the first has been a descendant of Sartar. In fact, Inkarne is a generation closer to Sartar than Argrath is (and like Inkarne, Argrath's descent from Sartar is primarily matrilineal)!

In the Hero Wars era, the farmers who support the Pure Horse People have a lot more freedom than KoS (and some of my previous material based directly on KoS) would suggest. To the extent Lodril is worshiped at all in the Hero Wars era, it is mainly in conjunction with the other Lowfires.