Tell Me About Invisible Orlanth

[Nick Brooke]

"King when you're winning:
You're only King when you're winning!"

- a popular Sartarite war-chant

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, EricW said:

Argrath lit the flame of Sartar, and won victories, so Orlanth clearly approves of his dragon and sorcery weirdness.

Argrath lit the flame and won victories, so who cares what Orlanth thinks? Orlanth needs to get with the program.

Clearly, Argrath has weirdness up the yin–yang, but if Gloranthan dragons are Yang/Dragon (and I am really not sure), who in Glorantha are Yin/Tiger waiting for the right time to pounce?

[mfbrandi]

47 minutes ago, JRE said:

The Talar has Mostali and Brithini support, so this can go two ways, either a monotheist reaction against the invisible storm, which means they see the invisible storm as a threat. or the Western forces are actually on a crusade against theists, starting with the nearer ones.

In my twisted little heterodox excuse for a mind, the cult of Invisible Orlanth allows the monotheists, the pantheists, and the polytheists all to get along famously: you cannot see the Invisible God because they are Creation (the One — no extra substance required for the Three); you cannot see Orlanth (or any of their chums) because they are Nothing (the Zero — the other component of the Two) and not a jumped-up cluster of devolved runes (Burlington Burtae from Bow).

Kiss goodbye to your category mistakes and enjoy the binary lightshow as the Final Programme runs. It is true that the World Machine is grinding ineluctably toward its heat death as Chaos/the Zero nibbles away at Reality/the One, but that is the small price you pay for something — anything at all — happening, and it is no use pretending otherwise.

So we have accepted Chaos, but that always was the Great Compromise: Yelm accepts that Orlanth has a legitimate rôle: to destroy the world.

If you have swallowed that, perhaps you would like to swallow some of this tasty Kool-Aid — please avert your eyes from the child’s skull I am banging against its vat and just listen to the lovely sound it makes. What? Jonstown? I thought you said Jonestown.

[mfbrandi]

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

In turn, subjected to a very alien Carmanian worldview, and in order to keep an emergent secret slave army under control, a new hybrid Orlanth/Idovanus cult emerged, pointing out that "you can see through air, ergo, it is invisible, ergo Orlanth is invisible for He is air, ergo Orlanth=Idovanus/Makan."  It is a rudimentary theology at best, but fit for slaves

Who says slaves lack subtlety? One of the themes of second-wave feminism was that women understand men much better than men understand women. The same goes for oiks and hoorays, lions and donkeys. The powerful outsource their thinking, but the wretched of the earth don’t have that luxury. Imaginary slaves deserve your very best fake theology, and they will accept nothing less.

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

I still see little need to gild the lily with a huge exegesis on how Invisible Orlanth has "always been a thing" in Carmania … After all, at the end of the day, they're still killing Lunars right?

Not the cult of Invisible Orlanth — though that may pre-date the machinations of our Taloned friend — but the dualism we can imagine it exploits. As for killing Lunars, Yolanela would seem to have beef with the emperor, but presumably the idea that the military revitalized by IO (and there is your binary, right there in the initialism — at least, in sans-serif) should be ready to fight the Orlanthi-ordinaire rabble of Charg is not mere pretext.

[Jeff]

10 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Yeah, that’s how I wrote them. Structurally, I used Persian chrome for Carmanians because it gave us:

1) a very different feel for a monotheistic(ish) chivalrous(ish) society than we saw in the “modern” mediæval Malkioni West (Jeff’s bathwater incident was still decades in the future when I wrote this stuff): I was exploring how far pre-GL Malkionism could deviate from the modern mainstream, playing with Manichaeans and dualism, etc..

2) an initially ancient-world model (“Persians”) that could interact with “Greeks,” “Romans,” “Babylonians,” “Byzantines,” “Ottomans” etc. (that is, the then-common analogies for various Pelorian cultures) in ways that make sense and have some historical and literary depth; again, this is before the Glorious ReAscent inspired the faux-archaic “Babylonian Lunar” mistake that blighted the Hero Wars / HeroQuest era.

3) a neat twist on the Arkat vs. Nysalor, truth in Darkness vs. deceiving Light angle to the Gbaji Wars, which preyed on loose words used by Greg in the Zero Wane History (you’ll find them on a re-read: look for Truth, Light and Darkness, then make them core) to give them more depth and significance.

My scrappy old notes from the Before the Moon era are here; the stuff in ILH-1 and the Guide was derived from them by Greg Stafford and others.

The nice thing about dualism is that it is really easy to go from a One Invisible Prime Move to a One Invisible Prime Mover AND One Bad Maker of Bad Things. Dualism pops up naturally in the Malkioni mindset. 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Jeff

[Jeff]

So what is the Invisible Orlanth? Well the mad preacher I heard in the market at Brinnus (before the market guards chased him off) said that "Orlanth is still here even if we cannot see him. His Breath is everywhere and as Invisible as ours! He turns the world around Idovanus' pillar! Remember, he defended Castle Blue yonder, and refused to submit! Orlanth became Invisible like the Breath of Idovanus, but he is still there, still turning the world. And soon his Breath will become a mighty storm that shall knock down towers of lies and destroy the palace of Ganesatarus! He may be invisible now, but soon everyone shall see ..." At that point the market guards chased him off. 

[Eff]

11 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Yeah, that’s how I wrote them. Structurally, I used Persian chrome for Carmanians because it gave us:

1) a very different feel for a monotheistic(ish) chivalrous(ish) society than we saw in the “modern” mediæval Malkioni West (Jeff’s bathwater incident was still decades in the future when I wrote this stuff): I was exploring how far pre-GL Malkionism could deviate from the modern mainstream, playing with Manichaeans and dualism, etc..

2) an initially ancient-world model (“Persians”) that could interact with “Greeks,” “Romans,” “Babylonians,” “Byzantines,” “Ottomans” etc. (that is, the then-common analogies for various Pelorian cultures) in ways that make sense and have some historical and literary depth; again, this is before the Glorious ReAscent inspired the faux-archaic “Babylonian Lunar” mistake that blighted the Hero Wars / HeroQuest era.

3) a neat twist on the Arkat vs. Nysalor, truth in Darkness vs. deceiving Light angle to the Gbaji Wars, which preyed on loose words used by Greg in the Zero Wane History (you’ll find them on a re-read: look for Truth, Light and Darkness, then make them core) to give them more depth and significance.

My scrappy old notes from the Before the Moon era are here; the stuff in ILH-1 and the Guide was derived from them by Greg Stafford and others.

And building on this, Invisible Orlanth would seem to be in line with something like Zurvanism, as an alternate, possibly dubious tendency within the broader Zoroastrian-esque Carmanian religion. Of course, Zurvanism was fatalistic and that doesn't seem much like Orlanth, so perhaps it's somewhat closer in effect to the "Mazdaist" reaction to Zurvanism of firmly reasserting free will and denying the importance of any transcendent time-controlling deities. (With the Chariot of Lightning as the even more syncretic Manichaeism?) At least, in a Glorantha where it's not yet another anti-Lunar response. 

[mfbrandi]

43 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Well the mad preacher I heard in the market at Brinnus … said that "Orlanth is still here even if we cannot see him … And soon his Breath will become a mighty storm that shall knock down towers of lies and destroy the palace of Ganesatarus!

Yeah, but what did he know? He’d been swigging from the bottle of meths he nicked from the blue guy with the sock puppets, and I swear there were all kinds of Mee Vorala pickled in there. Oh, wait …

[mfbrandi]

This might come in handy if you want to wade into mock-Zoroastrian Carmania:

Quote

The Encyclopædia Iranica is a comprehensive research tool dedicated to the study of Iranian civilization in the Middle East, the Caucasus, Central Asia, and the Indian subcontinent.

… but it will bore others rigid.

[davecake]

I agree with Darius and Nick that I prefer Invisible Orlanth as a new thing, and one uniquely Carmanian, rather than just being an offshoot of the Chariot of Lightning. Though it’s possible the Orgethite school of Air Rune sorcery, which was suppressed in the First Age by the True Hrestoli Movement in the First Age and ran off to the Dangan confederacy to eventually resurface as the foundation for the Chariot of Lightning movement centuries later, also was the basis for the sorcery and Malkioni theology of Invisible Orlanth, that is seriously ancient history. I think Invisible Orlanth is much more about dualist embrace of an ancient enemy god,  I have as the Spolites embraced the gods of Darkness, than just the revival of something ancient. 

[Joerg]

The Chariot of Lightning is rather recent, at most a quarter of a century old. Surantyr's discovery on Top of the World might be linked to the insights of Yolanela's son, as a new phenomenon that sooner or later would be picked up upon north of the Nidan/Rockwood chain, but other than meeting on that mountaintop or flying there and down on the other side of the range, there is little chance for contact.

IIRC the cult of IO is somehow geographically linked to the chain of castles built towards the Charg border, which might actually make it a "weapon" that is as sharp against storm opponents as it may be against Lunar ones. And I get Tarumath vibes here, although (so far) without suppressing the rest of Orlanth.

[JRE]

I just found quite a coincidence that both new cults mixing Orlanth and the Invisible God appeared in relatively close geographical areas (specially for flying individuals) in a period of some ten years. And ten year later they both get in conflict with the New Western Hegemon.

Of course the Invisible Orlanth is adapted to Carmanian sensibilities by viziers and carmanoi, so it is quite different from the barbarian admiration and Arkati Orlanth revival in Safelster. 

I really think the Carmanian satraps are sophisticated enough (and I can see a taloned hand there) that by adopting IO the Carmanians can actually have a peaceful interaction with Charg, so more than a weapon against Charg it could be a shield. 

[mfbrandi]

A couple of lame passages from the best-selling Carmanian scripture (an “adult colouring book” with a few captions), Invisible Orlanth for Masochists, translated poorly from the original gibberish:

1. Ganesatarus–Orlanth had a problem: desirous of introspection, they had no inside. But wasn’t looking out into the eternal absence the same as looking in? Confused, their head hurt, but violence was always an option, and a little self-trepanning might help. Orlanth–Ganesatarus plunged a finger into their forehead, and a beam of coherent burning light poured out. Ganesatarus–Orlanth saw inside and found the peace of the Wise Ruler.
    
2. Idovanus–Yelm had a problem: having no outside, the more they shone with wisdom, the greater the pressure grew. Their thought beams ricocheted in ever denser, more baffling patterns, and wisdom became folly. Their head hurt. The forehead of Yelm–Idovanus cracked from the pressure. Nothing blew in like a cool, refreshing wind, and their thoughts regained focus. Idovanus–Yelm was touched by the outside and knew the rush of the Void.

[Darius West]

On 10/27/2022 at 10:57 PM, mfbrandi said:

Who says slaves lack subtlety? 

It is more of a matter of slaves lacking the means to record and research these things.  Propaganda and brainwashing is extremely effective.  More cultish than cult.  If you don't believe me, ask friendly Mr. Hypnotoad.

 

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Darius West

[JonL]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Chariot of Lightning is rather recent, at most a quarter of a century old. Surantyr's discovery on Top of the World might be linked to the insights of Yolanela's son, as a new phenomenon that sooner or later would be picked up upon north of the Nidan/Rockwood chain, but other than meeting on that mountaintop or flying there and down on the other side of the range, there is little chance for contact.

The other thing that strikes me about Chariot of Lightning is that among the Ralian Orlanthi, the Bad Emperor is not Ehilm, but Malkion. Surantyr's sect is pointed squarely at dismantling the oncoming Seshnegi war machine.

[JRE]

18 hours ago, JonL said:

The other thing that strikes me about Chariot of Lightning is that among the Ralian Orlanthi, the Bad Emperor is not Ehilm, but Malkion. Surantyr's sect is pointed squarely at dismantling the oncoming Seshnegi war machine.

That is why it looks like Arkati manipulation to me. At the right moment, and with the military and magical power of Lankst behind.

[mfbrandi]

I had drafted a much longer version of this, but TL;DR: how about an Invisible Orlanth modelled on the Roman cult of Mithras?

The cult of Mithras takes from Zoroastrianism (i.e. old Carmanian religion) but it is not it: where Persian Mithra/Mihr is a yazata (think RC or Malkioni saint), Roman Mithras is top banana. Think of Invisible Orlanth as a Dara Happan–Theyalan syncretism with some significant Carmanian chrome.

From @Nick Brooke’s old website:

Quote

Sacrifices to the Wise Lord are carried out on mountain tops, which are sacred to him. The King performs the sacrificial act, but a Magus is needed to chant the sacred words that attract the attention of the Wise Lord. Other sacrifices take place on ‘Fire Altars’

Mithras was born from a rock — Petra Genetrix, but let’s call her Kero Fin — with a sword (very Orlanth) in one hand and a torch (the sun) in the other. Flame of Sartar too much of a stretch?

Also:

Quote

(Some historians, of an overly-religious bent, have seen the overthrow of Lion by Bull as a re-enactment in the political sphere of Orlanth's murdering Yelm). Many of the key concerns of Carmanian religion — with ritual purity, the primacy of the Light, the unity of Truth — owe as much to their Dara Happan cousins as to their Malkioni ancestry. Some noble Carmanian houses worship Yelm, though they often assign the Sun God leonine attributes which are unfamiliar in Dara Happan worship.

So we have Bull = Dark = Storm and Lion = Light = Sun. But remember

Quote

that Mithras both is and is not the Sun, depending on context, is one of those paradoxes which religions take in their stride.

When you squint, rebel and emperor seem to coalesce. Mithras is a bull killer.

Quote

[T]he act of bull-killing does figure prominently in the Zoroastrian cosmological narratives. In the first instance it was an act of evil: Ahriman slew the primal Bull of creation. However, the destructive act was turned to good, when from the bull’s sperm, purified in the moon, sprang the domestic animals.

Well, that is one way for Urox to become father of the herds.

Note Ahriman there: the outsider who attacks creation but in doing so helps to create the world. If you like, that is the violence of Orlanth (and indeed of Kajabor) helping to create the world as we know it with its solar cycle of day and night. Here the bull is a creature of Ohrmazd/Ahura Mazda, so coded “Light”. Now Mithraic iconography has three esoteric gods: the twin Mithras clones Cautes (torch up = sunrise & ascent into immortality (out of the universe/cave)) and Cautopates (torch down = sunset & descent into mortality (into the universe/cave)), but also a “mysterious” lion-headed god. Who he? Well:

Quote

The second Iranian identity [for the lion-headed god in Mithraic iconography], first proposed by I.F. Legge (1912-15), is Ahriman — an outrageous choice were it not that the name Arimanius is attested in Mithraic epigraphy, although never in a context which makes it more than a possibility that the Mithraic lion-headed god was Ahriman … If the Mithraic lion-headed god was indeed a descendant of the Iranian Ahriman, there is no need to assume, for that reason alone, that he retained an exclusively negative and evil nature, or that, in consequence, the Roman Mithraists were devil-worshippers on the side.

So we can have a revaluation/reconsideration of our Carmanian symbolism: here the lion is not a symbol of the sun but of the supposed enemy of creation (Orlanth/Kajabor). But if we see the bull killing as not so bad after all, and if per Invisible Orlanth for Masochists, we propose an inside/outside unification of the Emperor and the Rebel, Creation and the Void, we can see how the symbolism might be unstable (or possibly revolving).

“Our” Mithras/Orlanth is a god of the balance and the soldiery (which the Carmanians should like) of oaths (per Persian Mithra, “contract”, which the Orlanthi should like) and a reconciler of Order and Chaos (which the Lunars should like, along with its “esoteric hierarchy of seven grades”). But the Uroxi barbarians? No, they will hate Invisible Orlanth.

Well, I seem to have gone on far too long, anyway. Quotes not attributed to Nick Brooke are from the entry on Mithraism on Encylopædia Iranica, and there is more good nick-it-for-Glorantha stuff in there.

“Deus Sol Invictus Orlanatus! —  You thought I said ‘invisible’? No, ‘invincible’.”

PS: A tip of the hat to @davecake who had the foresight to say:

Quote

I think Invisible Orlanth is much more about dualist embrace of an ancient enemy god

Edited October 31, 2022 by mfbrandi
square closing bracket

[Jeff]

50 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Now, I may have this wrong — in the long run, you won’t lose money by betting against my opinions — but I thought the switch to ‘iron’ (i.e. steel) in the Mediterranean and thereabouts was due to the difficulty of maintaining supplies of the ingredients for bronze, there being few dead gods to scavenge from. Sure, steel made better — lighter, stronger — weapons, but it took more than that to push everybody over the technological hump: in the end, people shifted to iron because they had to, not because it was better.

This is a long way off talking about Invisible Orlanth. Lets return to the subject of the thread. If you want, you can always start a new thread.

[mfbrandi]

Being the one to have received the knuckle-rap for the drift off topic (and with no burning need to talk about the Late Bronze Age Collapse), perhaps it should fall to me to try to pull this back to Invisible Orlanth.

We (in playerland) know Invisible Orlanth by that name because the cult is some kind of Invisible God–Orlanth mash-up, but is there anything interesting to say from a Gloranthan point of view as to why Invisible Orlanth is invisible? That Invisible Orlanth is invisible because air is invisible seems the lamest possible answer.

We could just piggy-back on the reason why the Invisible God is not visible — presumably one of these:

• they are far, far away or not anywhere (in creation), so none of us can see them
• pantheism: (outside of mystical experience) you can never see everything
• they are hiding in plain sight
• Kajabor ate them

Not the last? Suit yourself. I am sure you can think up something much better, so barf forth your ideas!

This document did drop through a wormhole onto my desk; it seems to be some kind of videophone IVR script:

Quote

This is Invisible Orlanth. I am sorry but you cannot see me right now, because …

1. I am off in a cave somewhere killing a bull
2. this winged lion costume is very convincing
3. it is very dark out here
4. if you stare too long at the sun everything becomes invisible
5. I am everywhere and nowhere, baby
6. you can never see the void, only the things in it
7. your third eye is closed — no, don’t try to open it

… but surely Trickster wrote it.

Edited October 31, 2022 by mfbrandi
removed whitespace

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

We (in playerland) know Invisible Orlanth by that name because the cult is some kind of Invisible God–Orlanth mash-up, but is there anything interesting to say from a Gloranthan point of view as to why Invisible Orlanth is invisible?

I think it should reflect Yelm's inability to see his shadow/the "others", but now it's the Red Emperor in that position.  

We know the wind cannot be seen, so Orlanth can already travel invisibly.  But perhaps there's more now on the magical side.  If the Red Emperor is used to searching for Orlanth via invocation of Rune magic, then Invisible Orlanth may now be able to cast same magic through the aid of the Invisible God, i.e. via equivalent sorcery which the Lunar magicians cannot discern.

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

I think it should reflect Yelm[/the Red Emperor]'s inability to see his shadow …

the Red Emperor is used to searching for Orlanth via invocation of Rune magic

This is all good. The Sun see its own shadow? You wouldn’t think it could. It would take something very bright to make it cast one. But in a mystery cult, we can certainly have the cult secret of Light/the Sun casting its own Shadow. In a different context, I proposed this glyph:

… and that will do for the Sun floating above its own shadow, and for something to be chalked on walls by the weirder Invisible Orlanth cultists. Turn it on its side, and we get:

“I” for the Invisible Shadow (and Idovanus) and “O” for Orlanatus (who like Mithras is and is not the Sun) — Deus Sol Invictus Orlanatus! You cannot separate Caster and Shadow, because we are all us (and all One and all Zero). Be careful how you play with the elements of that glyph.

If the Red Emperor were to look for Orlanth — or the IO cult — using magic attuned to the Air rune, he would fail as IO is not an Air cult. If he found magic that did work, then — if his Solar credentials are legit — he would find that IO is in the room (but unlike in Aliens, not in the ceiling).

Can IO still be a wind deity? Sure. What makes the wind blow? Heat from the Sun to make the air molecules runes jiggle about. A Void for them to blow into (low pressure). I think we have both of those covered. So IO makes the wind blow — and the Solar Wind, too — but they are not a windbag, a goatskin taut with flatus. Much better.

But that IO is a Celestial/Cosmic cult with all kinds of crazy Solar notions (like the Sun Inside) and crazier Lunar ideas (balance, reconciliation, 7 degrees, and whisper it … the Void) does not mean that it could not end up in conflict with the Empire: “What do you mean you are the Sun and so is your wife? I am the Emperor. Only I get to be the Sun, and don’t you forget it!” And they are bound to have problems with that smelly lot from Charg: “A picnic with the Sun on the freshly flayed skin of what? I don’t think so!”

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

Heat from the Sun to make the air molecules runes jiggle about. A Void for them to blow into (low pressure). I think we have both of those covered.

Mythically this is covered by Aether fathering Umath.

 

[Eff]

5 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

We (in playerland) know Invisible Orlanth by that name because the cult is some kind of Invisible God–Orlanth mash-up, but is there anything interesting to say from a Gloranthan point of view as to why Invisible Orlanth is invisible?

Here's another possible answer- "invisible" might mean, especially in the crossover zone of Carmania, something that's on the far side of the Sky Dome where you can't see it, like the Invisible God logically would be (being outside of the universe), and like Annilla, the invisibility-granting Blue Moon, definitely is. Invisible Orlanth's name may be derived from the behavior of the Broken Plant/Orlanth's Ring, and claiming that the regular emergence from Stormgate is because Orlanth moves on the far side of the sky, in the invisible realm, or this may be retrofitted onto the belief that Orlanth has encountered the Invisible God and thus stepped outside of the universe. 

What does this mean? Well, it implies some things about Annilla and the Blue Moon and those mysterious blue sorcery-users who were in Pelanda long before the Malkioni started colonizing and migrating, but it also suggests we can identify potential other "invisible" entities by looking for strangely-behaving planets and stars. This also may be the operating metaphor of the Lodril Invisible Spear secret society- even though Lodril has no visible presence in the heavens, he can affect them, just as peasant revolutionaries can affect elite politics. 

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Eff said:

Here's another possible answer- "invisible" might mean, especially in the crossover zone of Carmania, something that's on the far side of the Sky Dome where you can't see it, like the Invisible God logically would be (being outside of the universe) … or this may be retrofitted onto the belief that Orlanth has encountered the Invisible God and thus stepped outside of the universe. 

I refer your honour  to Exhibit A — which has Orlanth outside the universe, though they didn’t go there: it is just what they are.

As I — feebly! — grasp it, IG has at least two functions: (a) to be removed from Creation (although I prefer to ditch the Three and embrace pantheism); (b) to be top god, above mere saints and burtae. So I made Yelm/top god the Inside and Orlanth the Outside. The One and the Zero. Then Orlanth’s blow against Yelm was reimagined as an act of mutual benefit, an opening of communication between Inside and Outside, rather than a murder. None of this would be accepted by orthodox Malkioni, Orlanthi, or Yelmies, of course; they would rightly say that it does violence to their subtle, beautiful, and true cosmologies.

All the astrological/astronomical stuff and the stepping outside of the universe fits with the plundered Mithraism, too. (Though, again, not in-keeping with real Mithraism, whatever the hell that was like.)

And we all know what we find outside the universe … [cue spooky music]

Edited October 31, 2022 by mfbrandi
added parenthesis on pantheism

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Mythically this is covered by Aether fathering Umath.

And generational collapse — or at least telescoping — is always hovering in the background.