Dwarven weapon skills

[JRE]

Rockheart Veinseeker is from Greatway, so I would say he is as individualist and openhandist as you can be without being excommunicated, as should any PC dwarf.

That indeed extends to the use of human style sorcery, which in my opinion is just the changes the True Mostali did to magic so the poor clay mostali that did not regenerate POW naturally could use some magic with a certain frequency, and later were poached by humans who claimed to have discovered it themselves.

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

Something must be done. This is a travesty.

One of the PCs in my group theoretically carries a shield, but never uses it in melee. The reasons are multiple.

1. He's better at Sword than Shield. (This only increases as he doesn't use the shield.)
2. When he augments Sword, it benefits both attack and defence.
3. Damage to opposing weapons, natural weapons in particular.

So it's not merely that 2H weapons are better than Sword & Board, it's that even when you carry a shield, it's better not to use it. Considering how outstandingly good shields were considered in the real world, this is a real problem.

[Barak Shathur]

3 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

One of the PCs in my group theoretically carries a shield, but never uses it in melee. The reasons are multiple.

1. He's better at Sword than Shield. (This only increases as he doesn't use the shield.)
2. When he augments Sword, it benefits both attack and defence.
3. Damage to opposing weapons, natural weapons in particular.

So it's not merely that 2H weapons are better than Sword & Board, it's that even when you carry a shield, it's better not to use it. Considering how outstandingly good shields were considered in the real world, this is a real problem.

It’s worse than I feared then. At least in RQ3, you couldn’t parry with a one handed weapon you had attacked with, and vice versa. 

[Kloster]

26 minutes ago, Barak Shathur said:

It’s worse than I feared then. At least in RQ3, you couldn’t parry with a one handed weapon you had attacked with, and vice versa. 

You could (with the official errata), but not in the same SR.

[Scotty]

8 hours ago, davecake said:

This is absolutely a factor. Some of the rules changes in RQG have quite far reaching consequences that are not obvious as they interact with other parts of the rules. 

If there are any issues that need flagging, please add them to the Q&A thread.

[Scotty]

5 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

Regarding this, have I got this right that you actually sacrifice POW to cast dwarven sorcery? In which case it's something to only use in exceptional circumstances? In the Bestiary it says "expend" rather than "sacrifice", but I take it this means the same thing?

Yes. The POW is permanently gone. You could quite reasonably assume that original Mostali can regenerate Lost POW like Rune points, but over time. So a point a season or year (no POW gain rolls of course). 

[soltakss]

On 10/27/2022 at 1:46 PM, Barak Shathur said:

So I’m about to play an Iron Dwarf. Reading about Mostali in the Bestiary I see their preferred weapon is Warhammer, a weak weapon that, given most dwarves won’t even have damage bonus due to their small size, doesn’t benefit them whatsoever. Why would an Elder Race that is so used to war, and has so many enemies, choose to handicap themselves in this way? Can someone explain?

Iron dwarfs are smiths, and smiths use hammers.

If that doesn't suit, dwarfs should be able to use axes as well.

[Barak Shathur]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

You could (with the official errata), but not in the same SR.

Another example of when development actually is devolution. So often, new versions of games ‘fix’ things that aren’t broken, in the process breaking them. 
 

 

45 minutes ago, Scotty said:

If there are any issues that need flagging, please add them to the Q&A thread.

Wait, I can point out problematic rules and I’m not just yelling into the void? Somebody cares?

36 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Iron dwarfs are smiths, and smiths use hammers.

If that doesn't suit, dwarfs should be able to use axes as well.

Smiths use hammers for smithying. For combat, they use the best weapon available to them. In RQG, this is not hammers. 

[Akhôrahil]

I think spears make sense for dwarves as well - it would compensate for their poor reach.

[soltakss]

59 minutes ago, Barak Shathur said:

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Iron dwarfs are smiths, and smiths use hammers.

If that doesn't suit, dwarfs should be able to use axes as well.

Smiths use hammers for smithying. For combat, they use the best weapon available to them. In RQG, this is not hammers. 

You asked for a possible reason.

Here are some others. Feel free to disregard those, too.

• True Mostali were once a lot bigger than Clay Mostali are now. So, they had a bigger Damage Bonus. Mostali are conservative, so they kept the same weapons.
• Mostali had magic that gave them damage bonuses when using hammers, but have lost that magic now.
• There is a specific foe of the Mostali that is damaged only by hammers, so Mostali still use them, just in case.

If Mostali use black powder weapons, why do they bother with Crossbows?

We can all nit-pick at various parts of the rules.

What I do is to just change bits and bobs as I go along. Even though the sample from the Bestiary has Hammer 80% and Axe 60% that doesn't mean that all Mostali should have those.

 

[Barak Shathur]

1 hour ago, Barak Shathur said:

Wait, I can point out problematic rules and I’m not just yelling into the void? Somebody cares?

I just got a moderator warning for this comment being too sarcastic, and I see now it can be read that way. I want to make it clear that was not the tone intended, or the way it sounded in my head! Rather I was trying to express, in a joking way, my incredulous delight at there being a QA thread. 

[Bill the barbarian]

7 minutes ago, Barak Shathur said:

I just got a moderator warning for this comment being too sarcastic, and I see now it can be read that way. I want to make it clear that was not the tone intended, or the way it sounded in my head! Rather I was trying to express, in a joking way, my incredulous delight at there being a QA thread. 

I have a bit of a rep for humour* (who knew?), but with humour there is a fine line twixt snark and a well needed belly laugh... Good luck in navigating it (we all need belly laughs), but if unsure, please err on the side of the obvious joke! In type it will be less easy to take offence.

 

*well at least I think I do🙂 

 

[Barak Shathur]

Yes. My post could have used a 🙂

[Jeff]

A lot in this thread. 

Dwarf Weapons. Most dwarf weapons are modified tools - hammers, clubs, axes, etc. or things constructed for the explicit purpose of killing things - crossbows, pistols, muskets, exploding barrels, etc. Dwarf society is incredibly conservative and once a thing is adopted, they tend to stick with it. Given that the average Iron Dwarf has 9 AP, and has a 70% chance of ignoring any magic cast at it, I'd not swear at them. Since they mainly fight trolls and dwarfs, their weapons are more dangerous than they look. Especially since those repeating crossbows have iron tips. 

When I handle dwarfs, they fight from a distance, using their crossbows. They almost never fight in the open ground and only enter combat once the enemy has been pounded by waves of bolts doing 2d4+2 damage (4-10 points as opposed to 2-9 for a composite bow). In their tunnels, where they sense everything with Earthsense, that's much more frightening than the waves of trollkin slingers. Also remember, they like to use Jolanti to soften foes up.  

Shields. My players all make sure they have shields and generally are reluctant to parry too often with their main striking weapon. A shield can break without dooming the character. It is useful against missile fire, etc. They aren't as indispensable as they were in RQ3, but my old sifu more than showed me why that is the case. In the end, shields are far more useful in group battle than in single combat (but can still be pretty useful in single combat). Most RQ combats are really single combats or light skirmishes.

 

[Jeff]

Just now, Jeff said:

A lot in this thread. 

Dwarf Weapons. Most dwarf weapons are modified tools - hammers, clubs, axes, etc. or things constructed for the explicit purpose of killing things - crossbows, pistols, muskets, exploding barrels, etc. Dwarf society is incredibly conservative and once a thing is adopted, they tend to stick with it. Given that the average Iron Dwarf has 9 AP, and has a 70% chance of ignoring any magic cast at it, I'd not swear at them. Since they mainly fight trolls and dwarfs, their weapons are more dangerous than they look. Especially since those repeating crossbows have iron tips. 

When I handle dwarfs, they fight from a distance, using their crossbows. They almost never fight in the open ground and only enter combat once the enemy has been pounded by waves of bolts doing 2d4+2 damage (4-10 points as opposed to 2-9 for a composite bow). In their tunnels, where they sense everything with Earthsense, that's much more frightening than the waves of trollkin slingers. Also remember, they like to use Jolanti to soften foes up.  

Shields. My players all make sure they have shields and generally are reluctant to parry too often with their main striking weapon. A shield can break without dooming the character. It is useful against missile fire, etc. They aren't as indispensable as they were in RQ3, but my old sifu more than showed me why that is the case. In the end, shields are far more useful in group battle than in single combat (but can still be pretty useful in single combat). Most RQ combats are really single combats or light skirmishes.

 

Iron dwarfs have no sense of honour, and have no need to fight single skirmishes. Throw Disorder Kegs and Bowling Balls to your hearts content. If the humans do something crazy enough like threaten Dwarf Mine with their armies, then out comes the Cannon Cult.

[Baron Wulfraed]

36 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 exploding barrels, etc.

Small beer stein with (tight) latching lid and you've created grenades. 🧐

[Barak Shathur]

From the Q&A thread as of today:

Change RQG page 209, W&E page 60:

Hammer, One-handed (1H) Hammer, War, Type C or I
 

Problem solved. I feel like I repaired a bit of the World Machine today 🙂

 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Barak Shathur

[Barak Shathur]

On 10/28/2022 at 6:04 PM, Akhôrahil said:

I think spears make sense for dwarves as well - it would compensate for their poor reach.

Lately I've come to think of the 15th century poll axe as the perfect dwarven weapon. It has an axe, a hammer, and a spike - a weapon for all seasons, useful in narrow tunnels as well as in the field. It's quite heavy, but dwarves have great strength so they're well suited to handling it. 

[Darius West]

On 10/27/2022 at 11:46 PM, Barak Shathur said:

So I’m about to play an Iron Dwarf. Reading about Mostali in the Bestiary I see their preferred weapon is Warhammer, a weak weapon that, given most dwarves won’t even have damage bonus due to their small size, doesn’t benefit them whatsoever. 

You think that's bad? Apparently each iron Warhammer costs 40K!

On 10/27/2022 at 11:46 PM, Barak Shathur said:

 Why would an Elder Race that is so used to war, and has so many enemies, choose to handicap themselves in this way? Can someone explain?

Dwarves are a craft-heavy race.  They make things, hence weapons that are similar to tools likely come with a hefty racial bonus to skill or some-such.  I imagine they may well have war adzes, war drills, war-awls, war spanners and so forth as well.  

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, Barak Shathur said:

dwarves have been given a blunt weapon as their primary melee weapon

Only Iron dwarves would have primary melee tools, and these dwarves would surely choose tools which are the best for the job.

Yes, other dwarves have blunt tools listed,  and dwarves are good at using their tools, but they are not the best tools for the job of war.

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Only Iron dwarves would have primary melee tools, and these dwarves would surely choose tools which are the best for the job.

Yes, other dwarves have blunt tools listed,  and dwarves are good at using their tools, but they are not the best tools for the job of war.

The Iron dwarfs adopted the tools of crafting - hammers and picks - as tools of war, and the tools of their enemies - axes and swords. It really doesn't matter to the iron dwarfs if many Clay Dwarfs are too weak to properly use these weapons to their best effect - take that up with the Decamony! That sort of Experimentalist thought is very dangerous - the same sort of logical error that resulted in the disasters of the First Age.

[davecake]

On 10/28/2022 at 5:36 PM, metcalph said:

Dwarves prefer to use gunpowder, iron and alchemy than mess about with Boon of Kargan Tor or Bladesharp. 

The Iron dwarf preference for unenchanted iron is very telling. They trust in iron, and see magic more as a problem than a help (mostly). 

But I don’t think this disdain for magic extends to Silver dwarves. While Mostali allegedly act as a perfectly unified society, and of course largely do cooperate at least within a single community, all of them have their own biases towards their own expertise and way of doing things, and some (slow and considered, probably only happening with the approval of Diamond dwarves) innovation within their fields. Silver Mostali will cheerily use sorcery beyond the bounds of traditional Maker magic, just as Iron dwarves use gunpowder, Golden dwarves build new alliances, Quicksilver dwarves create innovations like the Alchemical transformer, Tin dwarves create new creatures such as gobblers, etc. While this idea of slow technological innovation is not the same as religious or social innovation (Mostal himself was of course the greatest innovator, and the arch-conservatives of Nida were at the forefront of innovations like gunpowder), it will often be linked to it, especially OpenHandism and Individualism, but it happens. The Silver dwarves may have learnt some sorcery originally from others (likely from their long alliance with the Vadeli, in their ancient Storm Age alliance), or worked out its principles through observation, but I think they make some use of it now in addition to Maker magic. 

 

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, davecake said:

But I don’t think this disdain for magic extends to Silver dwarves.

I do.  Silver Dwarves can be sorcerors with the same antipathy towards magic as their colleagues.  

Firstly a couple of Data Points.  

"They say they made the Red Moon." Guide p84

Guide p297 has a map with two dwarven magical suppression zones.

Silver Dwarves IMO do not see magic as a positive force but a negative one to be soaked up and neutralized or expended.  Enchantments are good because they embed magic within matter.  Tapping is bad in that it destroys matter to create magic.  This also applies to sentients.  With uninhibited access to magic, the inhabitants of the surface world are surly and violent.  When equipped with a device that restricts their magic, like a slave collar, they become meek and compliant.  

I think all the Silver Dwarf spells are variations on the technqiues in RQ Glorantha Bestiary p61 and require the expenditure of POW to cast.  This impels them to cast massive spells rather than little ones like the humans would consider.

 

[JRE]

Going back to the original questions, another factor to keep in mind is that, similarly to the Brithini Horali, many iron dwarves may have centuries of training but limited practical experience, as there have been few open dwarf armies in the Third Age and even the civil wars were stopped before the end of the Second Age. So yes, a few veterans with experience on the surface still carry out "special forces" (or PC) like missions, but most of the iron armies are either in storage or endlessly training and crafting weapons. That is another reason to simplify if you have not really toushed anything besides a hammer for years.

As for Crossbows. dwarves have learnt from the copy of their design to hide their most interesting designs. So most young iron dwarves are allowed only weapons that are not secret. As they get more experienced they are allowed to learn how to make and use more sophisticated weapons. At iron diamonddwarves IMG  have powered battle suits, repeating heavy guns with fire elemental ignition systems and nilmerg auto loading, and their main melee weapon is a power fist.

As for magic, I mostly agree dwarves dislike magic and mostly use Maker magic, except for individualists, who see the value of each single dwarf and also of themselves, so they have a quite different attitude. As usual, it is all Arkat's fault and why it is a serious heresy. They use less POW intensive magics and are willing to use many resources or techniques to improve their individual survivability. Human style sorcery fits perfectly well. And it is helful with the Dragon Pass focus that both Dwarf Mine and Greatway are the main individualist strongholds.

And why I propose all dwarf PCs are individualists.

[davecake]

On 11/1/2022 at 2:35 PM, metcalph said:

think all the Silver Dwarf spells are variations on the technqiues in RQ Glorantha Bestiary p61 and require the expenditure of POW to cast.  This impels them to cast massive spells rather than little ones like the humans would consider.

Leaving aside we have an obvious philosophical divide here - I think Silver dwarves use something like conventional sorcery, you think they only use Maker magic (and that always means POW sacrifice) - the Bestiary literally says that the Mostali use techniques beyond those mentioned in the Bestiary, and that some of them more closely resemble standard sorcery ones

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It is widely known that these are not the only techniques used by the dwarfs. The Silver dwarfs are believed by some Malkioni to be the source of the Tap technique, while Tin dwarfs have some technique to breathe life into inanimate things. 

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