Dwarven weapon skills

[Barak Shathur]

On 11/5/2022 at 4:27 PM, Jeff said:

As a followup thought, remember that Gloranthan dwarves are most emphatically not the Scottish-accented dwarves of the Peter Jackson movies or of most D&D campaigns. A small Gloranthan dwarf might only weigh 10 kg (22 pounds) and be 60 cm (23 inches) tall. That's about the same size as my cat (admittedly she is a Maine Coon)! Dwarfs often have grotesque (but not hideous or repulsive) facial features, disproportionate and gnarled limbs, hunchbacked and twisted.

Larger dwarves exist, of course. A large dwarf might be 140 cm tall (55 inches) and weigh 75 kg (165 pounds). So there is a bewildering variety in sizes and shapes among dwarfdom. A dwarf like Ginkizzie or The Dwarf might be almost human sized, while other dwarfs in the community are no bigger than a large house cat. 

Yes. This is one of the aspects I love about Gloranthan dwwarves, and it is obvious from one glance at the illustrations in the Bestiary. Though the example there is for a typical Iron Dwarf encountered above ground, and as such it is perhaps less likely to be SIZ 2? Again, slightly different stats for the different subtypes could be something in you were to make a dwarf supplement. 

[Barak Shathur]

20 hours ago, soltakss said:

Mostali are specialised.

However, the Mostali that we see, the Dwarves, are all Clay Mostali, so are very much alike.

Other Mostali are very different. Each of the True Mostali castes are different from the other castes, and have specialisms that help them in their tasks.

Look at the RQ3 Mostali spells and make them abilities for the True Mostali.

By Mostali I meant Gloranthan clay dwarves rather than True Mostali.

[soltakss]

19 hours ago, metcalph said:

21 hours ago, soltakss said:

Look at the RQ3 Mostali spells and make them abilities for the True Mostali.

Don't think it's helpful to tell newcomers to look at out-of-print material.  In any case the RQ3 spells referred to are pretty much the same spells given in the RuneQuest Glorantha Bestiary p61.

Ok, look at those then.

 

[JRE]

I initially considered that yes, dwarves should be bred to their caste, and I would expect bigger size and strength in Iron, higher INT for Silver and high CHA for Gold.

But then I remembered how mostali are made, and assuming the dwarves ape the nine containers, I would expect that for Decamony loyalists each version of the clay jar is associated to one of the original nine containers and is used when you need dwarves of that caste, though without the shaping ability of the metals, the end result is the same for all and they all share the same base stats.

All dwarves are refined in the Clay Jar, from a protonodule crafted with (apparently work and suffering by two dwarves (not necessarily of that same caste). I assume the quality of the protonodule and its size will determine the stats of the dwarf.  Nida will be rigid in the caste allocation, so if you came from a work order for a lead caste, lead caste you are, even if you are freakishly large and suffer claustrophobia.

You can have dumb silvers, diminute irons and tonguetied golds. It is less likely that Player characters will meet non-archetypical dwarves except when visiting dwarfholds, however, and the referees should keep that in mind, but once in a while it can be great fun. I would not have the body modifications shown in the Guide illustrations as a birth trait, but more like body replacement by the dwarves themselves or the silver magicians, to be better at their job.  

Individualists, as part of their heresy, and a possible reason for the persistence of such heresy, use common clay jars but perform a series of tests to decide what will be the best caste for them. Preference is not an option for a freshly decanted dwarf, but suitability could be. 

The first case allows you to separate the stats from the caste, and build interesting dwarves. The second allows you, if that is what you prefer, to have whole units of STR 18 SIZ 10 Iron dwarves, all the same height with three meter pikes and excellent formation maneuvering.

A SIZ 2 STR 10 iron dwarf will not march in a pike and shot regiment, but could be an excellen builder and repairer of war machines, or a sabotage infiltrator, using explosives, acids, poisoned weapons or firearms that do not rely on damage bonus. Or piloting jolanti from a small control room/cockpit.

Dwarves are extremely rich in materials, but most clay dwarves are basically worthless before they get close to diamond status. So young dwarves will usually have only the equipment they manufacture themselves. And most of the work of an iron dwarf is ironworking, so it makes sense to make a combat version of your own main tool. 

Dwarves are immortal, so most of the survivors of the second age are still around. I consider the Decamony is extremely conservative, but the dwarves, specially as it affects their job, are all the time improving, modifying and changing their main tools. So except for young dwarves, I would still favor hammers for veteran iron dwarves, but they will be piston operated, or electrified, or blazing, or all three at the same time.

The main problem of introducing iron dwarves as opponents is that a PC victory nets them a huge fortune in iron. So make them work for it, or find a way so they cannot keep it.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

From a backgroud perspective :

I don't imagine, in my glorantha, dwarves as those who have "lust wealth / gold / diamonds / ...", those who drink, eat and sing more than other races, those who challenge the other races to demonstrate how stonger they are, hunting orcs and other Melkor's minions. Those who go to adventure to  accumulate wealth

Not in my glorantha, yes in my middle earth or d&d play (if I had those kind of play)

 

In my glorantha dwarves are focused on their tunnels and their plans no one understand. They don't care about gold or other metals as something else than material to build / repair the machine and their tools

they are as weird as dragonewt. But when dragonewt are weird because they seem too irrational, the dwarves are weird because they seem too rational.

 

In that case what should be an iron dwarf ?

a warrior able to defend the big caves ? for sure then they need a good size

a warrior able to attack some "outside" ennemies ? sometimes but not really often, then they need a good size

but that is not enough :

we need some "managers" in crisis situation, logisticians able to organize the retreat in good order, architects and engineers building the last defense to slow the invaders, etc.. they don't need to be big, if they have the skills

and of course we need those who can exploit their environment in a way the ennemies cannot feel :

those who build very small tunnels (oh a good LM would say " that is probably a ventilation system") to spray or throw  any lethal material (gaz, bomb, nail, anything)

those who can (with their hammer of course) start an avalanche of rocks* exactly when the ennemy is at the right place.

those who can lead all these little... things ? made of clay metal or flesh but "build" by the dwarves

oh these one need to be little, need to have a size < 3 they are made for that

 

tall dwarves may have to trigger avalanche too, so hammer is better than sword or spear or axe then. not to open world, but to dwarf world. they are strangers, really strangers in the open world, in my opinion

 

what about a dwarf pc ?

well i don't enjoy a lot that idea, because, in my opinion, they are not made for open world, will be accepted with difficulty, and will accept the world with even more difficulties. So my first question would be what is a dwarf ?

a small warrior, who loves beer and gold and gems ? able to "offer" big dammage ? those smith bringing disorder with them, those who hate and want to kill on sight some evil monster like orcs (hum broo ) ?

take a small human (pretty sure tolkien's dwarves are size 8+ !)

initiate him to storm bull, choose the warrior (heavy infantry with close helmet ?) occupation. Add a personal skill on smithing...

put him a big beard, my own stomach, add lust beer and lust wealth passions and you have exactly what you want

oh sure the kids from this little village will call you dwarf, probably the parents too before you open your helmet, maybe even after... and you will grumble... but wait, is grumbling the speciality of dwarfs ? ( and french too, some says ...)

 

 

of course if the choice is to play a "true gloranthan dwarf" it is something else but in that case,  as @JRE said, it cannot be a dwarf with all his iron gear.

You need, (in my glorantha, do what you want in yours for sure ! ) to define a reason why the dwarf is outside, why will he go with humans or even worst adventurers and why or when he had/will lose his gear (after few scenarii... maybe his previous mine will hunt him to get back the iron, all the iron, maybe all the material, even the dwarf material...)

 

by the way, an important point in "my" creation process, i don't roll dices for charcteristics so it helps to "build" what players want without envy or frustration random could generate, sometimes (a 12 INT sorcerer, a size 18 gimli... or a 120 pc against a 90 pc... etc)

So when the rules say 2d6 that just means to me that a dwarf pc can have a size between 2 and 12. I don't need to change the stats of the book, I just use it not as a creation process but as a creation boundary

[Bill the barbarian]

24 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

From a backgroud perspective : <snip>

Nice FDW, and JRE. Since Jeffs expose on the new Mostali I have been getting quite enthusiastic about them. And I think you both have some excellent points to ponder. Feeling incredibly ill today so I will leave the heaving thinking for tomorrow. But thanks for some interesting stuff to look forward to.

Cheers

[whitelaughter]

On 10/27/2022 at 11:07 PM, g33k said:

Cultural.

Same way farmers adapted farming implements into pole-arms (or nunchucks, or what-have you) and poachers became bowmen:  a smithying people will adapt blacksmith tools.

Personally, I allow Dwarves any "head on short haft" weapon like axes, hammers, picks, etc.

Hmm, should appropriate Craft skills give half their value as weapon skills then? I certainly wouldn't want a smith swinging a hammer at my head!

[Mugen]

2 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

Hmm, should appropriate Craft skills give half their value as weapon skills then? I certainly wouldn't want a smith swinging a hammer at my head!

IIRC, first editions of StormBringer gave an weapon skill to artesans whose tool could be used in combat,

It was random, and could be higher than a warrior's best weapon skill.

There was no connection between both scores, though...

Edited November 9, 2022 by Mugen

[Barak Shathur]

The later contributions here have been truly awesome. Again, the information contained in this thread alone would seem to justify a dwarven supplement. 

Just to clarify: I too have no interest in the Jacksonian dwarf, scottish-spouting, beer-frothing, rage-clowning. That is something quite far removed from Tolkien's Khazâd. Maybe that image is more in line with the Warhammer Fantasy universe? It's plain to me that Gloranthan dwarves are a different kind of bird. More machine-like. An iron dwarf adventurer would in my mind be an Individualist, maybe due to some freak accident in the process of creation imbued with a kind of self awareness that sets him/her apart. Kind of like the Tin Man, wandering the world searching for his heart. Or individual soul. 

[JRE]

The one time we briefly toyed with a dwarf PC (shortly after getting Elder Secrets of Glorantha) it started more or less like that, as a dwarf that had being taught by another dwarf the concept of self, and trying to follow the steps of Chark the Liberator by learning from humans how to get a soul. In true Wizard of Oz fashion, we all knew the end result would have been that the dwarf had a soul all along. We were starting with a silver dwarf, and the individualist had already learnt that part of individualism is defending yourself, despite what caste rules say. 

A stillborn game, but the discussions shaped a lot how I see Glorantha dwarves.

[JRE]

A good reason for a heretical dwarf to go out in the world is that they begin to age, so they have to leave the dwarfhold before it is remarked, as that guarantees a quick trip to the recycling vat and several tin cans. 

IMG the biggest benefit of officially becoming a diamond dwarf is that suddenly caste limitations no longer apply as long as you still work for the benefit of the World Machine, opening an interesting parallel to Hrestol and the Men-of-all.

That lets Isidilian use any weapon, if pressed. Or Battle Dress. 

True Mostali were always like that, doing what they did best because they were best at it, not because it was forbidden or for fear of any punishment. Clay mostali need to learn to focus first, before they are allowed to make decisions. 

That would make a diamond dwarf heretic still immortal, unlike lesser dwarves. 

[g33k]

13 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

Hmm, should appropriate Craft skills give half their value as weapon skills then? I certainly wouldn't want a smith swinging a hammer at my head!

I don't think it should be a universal/automatic thing, but... sure, it's a pretty widely-repeating pattern to see "weapon-apt" crafters' tools be weaponized at need.

As a GM, I'd absolutely consider this, with some reasonable limits; in particular, the "craft" or "profession" has to be reasonably strenuous, akin to that of a soldier.  For an example that I wouldn't allow:  a chef may be very adept with knives & cleavers, but they are seldom doing sustained cardiovascular activities, nor major strength-building.  They won't convert over to having an "adventurer's" combat-skills very well.

A blacksmith* (as you note) is often notably strong, and is often familiar with multiple weapons (from having crafted them).

*1 :  in Glorantha, it'd be a "redsmith" (bronze/etc) for most humans, which AFAIK is a different process & I don't know for sure if it does/doesn't include the classic blacksmith hammer&tongs work
*2 :  in some places/times, a "blacksmith" mostly makes civilian tools, and a "weaponsmith" or "armorer" is the guy who makes martial gear.

Edited November 9, 2022 by g33k

[Mugen]

3 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

Just to clarify: I too have no interest in the Jacksonian dwarf, scottish-spouting, beer-frothing, rage-clowning. That is something quite far removed from Tolkien's Khazâd. Maybe that image is more in line with the Warhammer Fantasy universe?

At first, I thought you were referring to Games Workshop's Steve Jackson... Obviously, WarHammer's dwarves can be described as "Jacksonian", in this context. 😄

[g33k]

24 minutes ago, Mugen said:

At first, I thought you were referring to Games Workshop's Steve Jackson... Obviously, WarHammer's dwarves can be described as "Jacksonian", in this context. 😄

Jackson's take on Dwarves was, I always thought, among the weakest bits of his movies; much less Tolkien-esque than most of the rest.

[Barak Shathur]

2 hours ago, Mugen said:

At first, I thought you were referring to Games Workshop's Steve Jackson... Obviously, WarHammer's dwarves can be described as "Jacksonian", in this context. 😄

Good catch!

[Barak Shathur]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Jackson's take on Dwarves was, I always thought, among the weakest bits of his movies; much less Tolkien-esque than most of the rest.

Yup. I made a fan edit of the Rings trilogy for myself where I tried to edit out the worst of Gimli’s nonsense to make it a little more watchable. And book-Gimli is one of my favorite characters!

[Bill the barbarian]

6 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

The later contributions here have been truly awesome. Again, the information contained in this thread alone would seem to justify a dwarven supplement. 

 

Agreed as I said above, I am really beginning to dig RQ dwarves... A LOT! Greg got me to hating them back in the 80s (?) with his "Why I hate Dwarves" Different Worlds article but some great posts here... some nice canon from Jeff, et voila!

[Baron Wulfraed]

7 hours ago, g33k said:

*1 :  in Glorantha, it'd be a "redsmith" (bronze/etc) for most humans, which AFAIK is a different process & I don't know for sure if it does/doesn't include the classic blacksmith hammer&tongs work

The primary difference is that bronze "work-hardens" -- one needs to heat it to anneal it into a less-brittle state before continuing to hammer on it. Hammering out a shape can be done with nearly cold bronze. Creating a sword edge /ends/ with hammering the edge to make it hard.

In contrast, while steel does need to be heated to work it, and cold steel doesn't move under hammering, it also needs to be quenched (temperature below working heat, but above the point where it attracts a magnet, then dipped into oil or <shudder> water) to harden the steel.

[Akhôrahil]

7 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

The primary difference is that bronze "work-hardens" -- one needs to heat it to anneal it into a less-brittle state before continuing to hammer on it. Hammering out a shape can be done with nearly cold bronze. Creating a sword edge /ends/ with hammering the edge to make it hard.

And of course you cast bronze in a mold, but not iron (for weapons).

[Baron Wulfraed]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

And of course you cast bronze in a mold, but not iron (for weapons).

Well, modern days you can cast iron -- but wouldn't want it for a steel weapon (too grainy and porous -- look at any old engine block or cast iron fry pan [or unglazed cast dutch oven].

[Akhôrahil]

6 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Well, modern days you can cast iron -- but wouldn't want it for a steel weapon (too grainy and porous -- look at any old engine block or cast iron fry pan [or unglazed cast dutch oven].

Hence the qualification about weapons. 🙂 I used my cast-iron pan just an hour ago.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[davecake]

I think a really interesting perspective on this whole issue (one which I’ve been thinking about for the East, as well as generally) is thinking about what warfare and combat look is like for Octamonist heretics, or other dwarven groups who do not have Iron dwarves for whatever reason (including OpenHandist/Individualist heretics and offshoots like the Flintnail cultists). 
What does Mostali combat look like without Iron dwarves? 
Dwarves of other castes using tools as weapons? So back to hammers and picks, largely. Mostly of bronze, manufactured by Copper dwarves. 

Much less reliance on gunpowder weapons, much more reliance on the tools of other castes - sorcery (Silver), alchemical weapons like acid or poison (Quicksilver), fire elementals and fire weapons and magic (Brass), Earth elementals, Jolanti, gremlins, etc (Tin). If making melee weapons becomes the job of Copper dwarves instead of Iron dwarves, wielding them may also be their job? A lot of use of defensive fortifications (Rock dwarves), probably also including sappers? 

The existence of the dwarven magic for making dangerous obsidian/sharpened stone blades/axes (showing up as the Diamond Edge spell in the RBoM) implies that at at least some point such weapons were used by Mostali, probably Rock dwarves (as its the same magic used to empower stone cutting tools). Maybe Rock dwarves would often be the first to encounter subterranean threats like troll tunnels or krarshtkid tunnels, and would have a protocol for emergency dealing with such threats, involving creating emergency weapons and boosting their effectiveness using the spells they already used? 

Besides thinking about what it’s like dealing with the dwarves of Diamond Mountain, and other smaller Octamonist enclaves, it’s also worth considering that encountering dwarves in contexts other than small military groups of only Iron dwarves will involve all these tactics - Iron dwarves are always a minority, and the rest of the Mostali would not be entirely unprepared to defend themselves. 

Also, while cannons and bombs are clearly very powerful and effective, the Mostali undoubtedly know of other siege weapons. The masters of the crossbow undoubtedly also are capable of making interesting variants on the ballista. Repeating ballista, perhaps cocked by Jolanti, for example. And catapults and trebuchets, perhaps flinging not just rocks but also alchemical payloads. Though dwarves would prefer weapons that have a fairly flat arc (including ballista) rather than a high arc like catapults or trebuchets, at least for defensive purposes. 
 

(an aside relevant to Heortling history - Culgak the mighty magical trebuchet that throws buckets of fire, that is the great weapon of the Liornvuli in the early First Age seems very incongruous in Heortling history, but makes a lot of sense as a Mostali creation. It is possibly relevant that Culgak was used by the Liornvuli against the Stravuli, and the Stravuli ruling line seem to have notably close relations with the Aldryami - which might go some way to explaining why Mostali might supply a great magical weapon to Orlanthi)

 

[JRE]

Iron mostali are presented as an innovation that allows the mostali to go into the offensive (to recover secrets taken by others and to destroy their enemies in their own terrain). I am sure all castes are used to and useful on the deffensive, and I expect self-defence is allowed to non-iron castes.

I agree with all your caste ideas. However I would expect dwarves to use a lot of containment and long range weapons, as well as use of constructs and other artificial beings to avoid putting dwarven lives in danger. I agree rock dwarf excavators will have protocols and have magic and equipment to face typical underground menaces, including Krashtkids and Uz. I expect that they are aware the most likely solution is to collapse the tunnel on themselves to protect the dwarfhold. 

Gunpowder is known to almost all dwarf cities and made by the Quicksilvers, so bombs, mines and demolitions will be typical tactics of Octamonists.  

I expect catapults and similar high arc weapons are supplied to surface allies, and as such not treated as dwarven secrets, though they can be useful in the defence of the surface portion of dwarven strongholds.

I suppose dwarves are still mostly shortsighted, but glasses are within the lead dwarves ability to make.

Isidilian was already around in the First age, but a flaming trebuchet looks like it should come from volcano powered Gemborg, in Maniria, and something Martaler of the Iron Forge could have given to a Heortling clan. Besides fighting elves, as Gemborg was trying to stay independent from the Only Old One, it could also be an effort to find support among independent minded Heortlings. I would expect the flaming projectiles were supplied by the dwarves, so when the alliance breaks, the Heortlings are left with a trebuchet without ammo they cannot maintain.

[SDLeary]

18 hours ago, JRE said:

Gunpowder is known to almost all dwarf cities and made by the Quicksilvers, so bombs, mines and demolitions will be typical tactics of Octamonists.

Of course! Blackpowder is a tool! Charges are used to create initial voids for new halls and workspaces. Much easier to excavate once you have set off a charge or two to loosen things up a bit. Work smarter, not harder! 

SDLeary

[Barak Shathur]

On 11/4/2022 at 2:37 PM, Jeff said:

Dwarfs in RQ2 are the same as in RQG. The only change with humans is that their SIZ now averages 13 instead of 11. They have one hit point less than the average human despite being 6 SIZ points smaller.

Again, this is not a problem in our eyes. Dwarves are not intended to be combat monsters, any more than ducks are. And their ranged weapons and explosives should be far more threatening than fighting them up close where humans longer reach and greater SIZ gives them an advantage.

Part of this is how we look at the dwarfs. I view the dwarfs as being less like Gimli or Thorin Oakenshield and more like:

Follow up! In the Bestiary, it says an average dwarf is 115 cm and 45 kg. Average SIZ is 7, which is slightly over half of the human average of 13. So is an average human just under 230 cm tall?