Homelands for Maniria

[Nevermet]

Hi there.  I was curious if I could get some input on something.

I'm slowly working on some ideas on Maniria, trying to update it to bring it in line with RQG mechanically and setting-wise post-Guide.  In that vein, I'm starting to work on Homelands.  Here's what I have as a list of potential homelands:

1. Manirian - Rural Orlanthi tribes of interior Maniria
   • Includes the Bastis, Nimistori, Solanthi, Legrosi, Ditali, and Dokoli
      
2. Trader Prince & Citizen - Urban population linked more to the Manirian Road than the land
   • Includes most of the Trader Prince cities
      
3. Wenelian - Survivors of Slontos along the New Coast, culturally and politically distinct from the Trader Princes of the interior
   • Includes Kaxtorplose, Fay Jee, and Peelo
      
4. New Fens - Marsh-dwelling culture comprised of a blending of Ralian immigrants and Slontan survivors
   • Includes Handra
      
5. Auloring - Slontan survivor population that fled far up river 
    
6. Hsunchen
   • Pralori elk
   • Mraloti boar
   • Caroni mountain goat (very rare)
      
7. Ramalian - Slontan Survivor Population that fled to the extreme southwest of Maniria
   • Includes Valekos, Alatan, & Khorst
      
8. Veskarthan - The Volcano worshippers of the West Hills, Howler, and Pelushi that are religiously and politically affiliated with Caladraland, even if they are politically independent
   • Includes Solung

 

Part of the problem is I'm not completely sure when it is appropriate to make 2 homelands, or make 1.

For example, there appears to be a rather dramatic urban/rural split between the Trader Princes and their Manirian "subjects" that (at least for the Solanthi and Ditali) threw in with Greymane.  Another example is the Aulorings, who I could conceive of as part of the New Fens homeland, or as something distinct.

 

And yes, I realize "maximum fun" is a standard, but it's a very abstract one for this question.  Does anyone have suggestions about how to conceptualize homelands?  Does my list seem like it makes sense?

 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Nevermet

[Brian Duguid]

Not quite answering your question just yet, but Guide to Glorantha page 283 hints that a small number of Damali deer-folk are found "amongst the Pralori", so they could exist here as well. The Children of Hykim offers character generation rules for the Mraloti, Pralori, Caroni and Damali, and also for the opossum folk, who exist canonically but whose homeland is not canonically known.

For the broader question, I think what matters is Homelands in terms of their function under the rule system. They are only functionally relevant to character generation, and to certain aspects of that topic: cultural stereotype; suggested occupations; religion / cult; local modifiers to skills / Runes; base passions; family history.

Your split looks pretty reasonable on that front, although it may obscure some differences within each culture area. In Ramalia, you have both the Malkioni set of the ruling class, and the "oppressed populace". The latter worship Mralot and Zorak Zoran (? from memory), but are not proper Mraloti, so far as I can see. But differences like that are an issue anywhere, any possibly better dealt with through the occupations. City dwellers in Sartar may have quite different characteristics from the rural populace - but largely seen in the rules through through occupation and cult choice (scribe vs farmer, etc).

Edited November 11, 2022 by Brian Duguid
typo

[Gallowglass]

Your list seems good to me. It’s a lot of options but I kind of enjoy it for that, plus Maniria is a very complex place! I would actually have Alatan and Khorst be represented in their own category, separate from Ramalia. I also agree with Brian that the “Fallen Mraloti” could be their own category. 

[hipsterinspace]

Having it broken down between Entruli/Wenelian (tribal Orlanthi, maybe Trader Princes and Handra) and Slontan (more explicitly Western in worldview and way of life) might make sense if given a sort of broad brush of cultural expectations and stereotypes. You could always do local modifiers like the homelands in the core book to flesh it out more.

[Nevermet]

Hi! Thanks for the replies.  A few comments:

 

Regarding the Mraloti, I took the phrase, "These heavily-forested hills are inhabited by the degenerate descendants of Mraloti Boar Hsunchen" to mean the primary inhabitants of the Mralot Hills of Ramalia are no longer Hsunchen.  There are Mraloti all around Maniria and Ramalia, but the way I was currently thinking is something along the lines of this over-generalization: "Degenerate Mraloti" is just another name for Ramalian Brown-Caste Dronars.  But maybe I should rethink this.  Also, I plan on buying Children of Hykim next paycheck.

 

Also, I agree I have a lot, and possibly too many, homelands.  the core book has 6, and I'd like to get it down to about that.  But as many of you have acknowledged, Maniria is a messy place.  I really appreciate Brian reminding me about the function, mechanically, of homelands.  As such, I collapsed the Trader Princes back into the Manirians.  It's all 1 homeland, though the cultural divide between "The Land and the Road" is rather large and probably coming to a head.  I also folded the Volcanics into Maniria, as they probably have a similar lifestyle.  The two big differences are that they are religiously affiliated with Caladraland, and they have no cities.  I am sure there are some Volcano-worshipping clands that are politically affiliated with Saltcastle and Bath.

 

This means that about 60% of Maniria's population belongs to 1 homeland, which I feel is justifiable given how things are described in the Guide.

[Nevermet]

Here's a tentative new list of Homelands:

 

#1: Manirian (total population: 611,000)

• Interior of Maniria, defined by forests, North-South Rivers, and the failing rule of the Trader Princes
• Regions:
  • Bastis
    • TP Cities: Highwater, Yolanda
  • Ditali / Dokali / Swarz
    • TP Cities: Bath, Gorphing, Saltcastle, Staton, Sweet Valley
    • Non-TP Cities: Bluewater, Swarz
  • Howler Volcano
  • Legrosi
    • TP City: Tallcastle
  • Nimistori
    • TP Cities: Jaraz, Selgos, Jubal
  • Pelushi Volcano
  • Solanthi
    • TP Cities: Ferry, Fort Digger, Temple of Peace, Yellowstone
    • Non-TP Cities: Donali

#2: Ramalia: (population: 180,000)

• Isolated southwestern Maniria, coastlines uninhabited.  Lots of ruins and scars of the Sundering.  This was a hinterland of the archducky, not Kotorland like most of the Manirian homeland.
• Regions
  • Mraloti Hills (ex-Hsunchen)
  • Valekos (“Civilized” but isolated)

 

#3: Hsunchen (not a region, population: over 55,000)

• Not a geographic location
  • Caroni
  • Mraloti
  • Pralorela

 

#4: Wenelia (population: 50,000)

• The New Coast and Poison Shore, living next to an Ocean that hates you. The oceans makes it distinct from the interior homeland.
• Regions
  • Fay Jee (ruled by a Trader Prince)
  • Kaxtorplose
  • Peelo & the Maldros

 

#5: New Fens (population: 30,000)

• Geography: Marshes that define much of the Noshain River system.  Similar to the Everglades in Florida.  Marshes make it distinctive to the forested Manirian homeland.
• Regions
  • Handra (Ralian / Slontan)
  • Caratan / Aulorings (Quasi-isolationist, religiously unique)

 

#6: Khorst (Population: 22,000)

• Marsh and coastal culture west of Ramalia and south of Tarinwood.  It is defined by the ocean, distinguishing it from the Ramalian interior
• Regions
  • Alatan
  • Khorst
  • Trachodon Marsh

Edited November 13, 2022 by Nevermet

[Nevermet]

I... think that makes sense?

 

Put another way, the homelands of Maniria are

1. Forested hills and mountains, dotted by walled trading posts that people call cities
2. Post-apocalyptic folk horror
3. ANIMAL PEOPLE! (specifically, were-elk, were-boar, & were-goat)
4. Post-apocalyptic shoreline full of ruins and Sleestaks
5. Swamps with Emmet Otter & Kermit the frog
6. Swamps with dinosaurs

Edited November 13, 2022 by Nevermet

[AlexS]

Hi @Nevermet, your Maniria material sounds fantastic, can’t wait to see it on the JC!

With my co-authors (collectively we are Movement Rune Publications, though the actual publications are still in the pipeline) I have been puzzling about how to make Homelands work better, for a resource we’re developing that helps to generate family backgrounds for characters from Kethaela (i.e. the other bits of the former Holy Country as well as Esrolia). 

The solution we came up with is the idea of Cultural Traditions. These are what produce the functional aspects highlighted by @Brian Duguid (religion/cult, suggested occupations, etc.). They are usually associated with a Homeland, but not automatically. One Homeland can have several Cultural Traditions, and people with the same traditions may live in different Homelands.

Our inspiration for this was the WF15 article ‘Tribes of Sartar’, which talks about ‘Axe Orlanthi’, ‘Earth Tarshites’ etc. for different tribes who share the same Homeland but have different cultural weapons, matrilineal/patrilineal traditions, etc.

If you go with this logic, it means that if two Manirian characters are both from Staton but one has a Ditali background and the other has a Trader Prince background they don’t have different Homeland identities, but they do have different Cultural Traditions. 

Cultural Traditions are useful to differentiate people in terms of things like religion (Orlanth, Ernalda and Entru for the Ditali, Issaries and Henotheist sorcery for Trader Princes) even when they share a Homeland, a region or a city. 

The same applies when people with the same background live in different Homelands – after all, people take their cultures with them when they move, in Glorantha just like in our world. Ditali living in Dizbos are still Ditali and Trader Princes living in Rhigos are still Trader Princes. 

However, if they’ve been there for more than a generation their Customs will be different, because of the influence of their adopted Homeland. Mechanically, this can be represented in RQG character generation by giving them a ‘Customs’ skill that reflects the Homeland where they live, even if their ‘Culture’ (or in our terms their Cultural Tradition) is originally associated with another Homeland.

Hope that is useful – happy to share the draft list of Cultural Traditions if that would help. We have over 70 possible Cultural Traditions on our list so far (!) but because we are focusing on Dragon Pass, Prax and Kethaela we only have four Manirian ones (Solanthi, Ditali, Haranding and Trader Prince), as those seemed most relevant to the people adventurers are likely to meet in Esrolia without heading further West.

[Nevermet]

8 hours ago, AlexS said:

Hope that is useful – happy to share the draft list of Cultural Traditions if that would help. We have over 70 possible Cultural Traditions on our list so far (!) but because we are focusing on Dragon Pass, Prax and Kethaela we only have four Manirian ones (Solanthi, Ditali, Haranding and Trader Prince), as those seemed most relevant to the people adventurers are likely to meet in Esrolia without heading further West.

By my count there are 9 Manirian tribes, 15 Trader Prince cities/forts/temples, 3 New Coast cultures, 4 "Slontan Survivor" cultures, and 3 Hsunchen. And then there's the "buffer states" of Kithma, Solung etc.

That means at least 34 cultural traditions.  More, actually, because I would argue that just as you could have a "darkness clan" in Sartar, there are multiple tradition among the Manirians.  IMG, Haranding are Manirian Boar Clans, and there are also Manirian Lion Clans, and several others.

As you can probably see, I was thinking about dealing with this eventually by defining it on a clan level.  So, if there was a hypothetical PC who was Nimistori, the next question is whether they come from Jaraz, Jubal, Selgos, a Lion Clan, an Elk Clan, a Deer Clan, etc.

As you can also probably see, I'm more comfortable with HQG chargen than RQG chargen, but I'm thinking things.

Sorry... I'm babbling.  The main issue, though, is that I think everyone here fully agrees that there is a large amount of diversity in Manirira (and any other region in Glorantha, honestly), and there's a need to figure out an effective way to mechanically represent that.   I thought I had a point about that issue when I started this post, but I think I was wrong LOL

[Nevermet]

As places one would end up depending on why they headed west from Esrolia... there's a bunch of different ideas there.  But yeah, assuming PCs are getting into Greymane / Trader Prince drama, your list of 4 is probably a good 4.

[AlexS]

On 11/13/2022 at 5:44 PM, Nevermet said:

there's a bunch of different ideas there.  But yeah, assuming PCs are getting into Greymane / Trader Prince drama, your list of 4 is probably a good 4

Thanks @Nevermet – and yes, one campaign storyline is a PC from Dizbos whose home village was sacked in Greymane’s Great Raid mixing revenge with politics when Samastina’s spy mistress sends the party on a Manirian mission.

On 11/13/2022 at 5:42 PM, Nevermet said:

By my count there are 9 Manirian tribes, 15 Trader Prince cities/forts/temples, 3 New Coast cultures, 4 "Slontan Survivor" cultures, and 3 Hsunchen. And then there's the "buffer states" of Kithma, Solung etc.

You’re right, there’s a lot of diversity in Maniria! Then again, the same is true of Kethaela, which is where we’re focusing.

We dealt with the complexity by assuming that Cultural Traditions shape the way a clan (or House) works, the deities it worships etc. – but that doesn’t mean a different Cultural Tradition for each clan (or city, or even tribe). It is pretty much canon that Sartar has many Old Hendriki or Axe Orlanthi clans who belong to several different tribes. 

In our Glorantha, the local variations are dealt with through Customs. Northern Sartar Axe Orlanthi clans like the Red Cow have their own history (e.g with the Telmori) and do things a bit differently from Western Sartar Axe Orlanthi clans like the Ernaldori, so they have a different RQG ‘Customs (local)’ skill even though their Cultural Tradition is the same. I never played HQG but I think this is a kind of RQG take on HQG clan-based chargen.

So, the Trader Princes of those 15 different Manirian cities/forts/temples have 15 different sets of ‘Customs (local)’ – but if they all live in castles, keep wizards who practice Henotheist sorcery and claim that Castelain is their ancestor and this gives them the right to control trade along a piece of his Road, then maybe only there is only one Trader Prince Cultural Tradition?

Alternatively, you can capture diversity by conceptualising the different Homelands of Maniria (which might be just two or three, or up to six as you’ve suggested) as bigger areas divided into a set of regions (which could be up to half a dozen for big Homelands such as your ‘Interior of Maniria’ one), and focusing more on the distinctive character of each region. 

We do that for our Kethaela, and also use the idea of ‘territories’ to divide regions into the areas controlled by different tribes or cities – but that is about politics and lower-level Homeland Lore (do you know who is the tribal king or city queen?), not about culture.

As @hipsterinspace points out, the core RQG rules include ‘local modifiers’ which apply at the level of the region, not the Homeland (e.g. people from South Esrolia get Earth Rune +5% and Farm +10%). So the game assumes that it’s not only Homelands that matter in terms of variation in chargen – it’s just that while the core rules apply these modifiers at the region level we think it makes more sense to associate them with the idea of Cultural Traditions. In our version of Esrolia, a South Esrolian adventurer gets those modifiers if they are a Farmer from a Harvest-Blessed House that venerates Esrola, but they get different modifiers if they are a warrior from a Blood-Blessed House that venerates Maran (we call the Esrolian Cultural Traditions ‘Blessings’ – there is an in-world explanation for this).

Your ‘tentative new list of Homelands’ for Maniria already opens up the idea of within-Homeland chargen variation by listing regions for each of them, except for the Hsunchen, so you could go with the rulebook default and associate modifiers with the regions. 

Then again, if you go with the Cultural Traditions idea instead you can simply have (for example) Hsunchen Cultural Traditions present in various different places and associate the extra modifiers for Runes, skills, cultural weapons etc. with the Cultural Tradition not the region. 

Culture and place both matter for chargen, but we think that culture matters more, and because cultures can be found in lots of different places it makes sense to link actual modifiers to cultural traditions rather than places. 

This has the added benefit of allowing you to think of Maniria’s different Homelands and regions as multicultural – and after all, it is its diversity that makes Maniria such an exciting part of Glorantha in which to set RQG adventures.

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by AlexS
Clarifying difference between Homeland and region modifiers

[Nevermet]

On 11/15/2022 at 3:24 AM, AlexS said:

Thanks @Nevermet – and yes, one campaign storyline is a PC from Dizbos whose home village was sacked in Greymane’s Great Raid mixing revenge with politics when Samastina’s spy mistress sends the party on a Manirian mission.

Oh, that sounds fun.

Yeah, the routing of Greymane's army combined with his death and the death of his 2 sons will create massive destabilization in eastern and central Maniria, and as such, there are a million opportunities for campaigns.  A plot going into Maniria for vengeance is perfect.  On the Manirian side, a campaign about a small band of survivors trying to get home has great potential.

 

I'll think about the rest of your post later and try to respond tonight 🙂