Mythic Polynesia Now Available

[SunlessNick]

On 12/31/2022 at 7:55 PM, NurgleHH said:

Blaming the whole publisher and threaten with „I won’t buy“ because they not answered you is a very poor reaction from a member of this new cancel culture (behaving like three years old children).

The problem with this argument is it assumes a default obligation to buy something - no one has any such obligation, and it is neither poor not childish, nor part of some "cancel culture" to decide not to spend your money on a particular company's products.

On 12/31/2022 at 7:55 PM, NurgleHH said:

Minimizing their work to one release is very poor.

I was excited about Mythic Polynesia and had resolved to buy it.  This excitement was almost all on the strength of Mythic Babylon, which is an excellent product - is that very poor too, or is it ok if I like the product I'm juding them on?  Now, if they were to release, say, a Mythic India (or something narrowed down in time and space, like a Mythic Chola), I can't be as confident about it as I would have been, because I know what happened with Polynesia.

On 12/31/2022 at 7:55 PM, NurgleHH said:

And one person started a personal vendetta against them and in this impersonal times of internet you jump to it.

This is what I meant in my previous post.  The person (I assume) you're talking about isn't the only critic of the product, or the only one from the Pacific, and calling his twitter thread a "vendetta" doesn't actually refute anything he said.

[ThornPlutonius]

While I will probably not buy Mythic Polynesia, I will continue to buy TDM products.  One mistake (and a mistake made by the authors of the book, not TDM) will not deter me from continuing to buy TDM products in general.

[docfuturity]

On 12/29/2022 at 8:50 AM, SunlessNick said:

I haven't seen anyone try to counter the criticisms of the book in terms of accuracy - ie I haven't seen anyone say, "No the criticisms are off target, and the book is accurate."  The responses have always been in the form of "who cares if it's accurate, it's a gaming product" (which would be ok for a 7th Sea supplement about the cultures inhabiting a wide-flung archipelago, but Mythic Earth's selling point is, well, being Earth), conspiracy theories about the guy who wrote the longest critical twitter thread, or virtue-signalling about "anti-woke" they are.

This is a tough subject for someone to defend, because in the current discourse anyone who isn't also Maori or of Polynesian descent will not have a basis for comment. Most gamers who purchsase TDM products are not, I am willing to bet, going to fit that bill. The best I could do is point out that the author of the book probably had no idea that there was a conflict or outdated source material to begin with, and I bet he wishes he had taken the setting and fully mythologized it like he did with his other work, Perceforest (except in a twist I think he could have left out the fantastical setting and used the historical one on which Perceforest was grounded to much greater effect). If Mythic Polynesia had been called Mythic Islands of Lore I think they'd have managed to avoid comparisons to real world modern people. 

Either way, TDM is not a large publisher, so I feel for them, as this will be a financial hit no doubt. I don't know if cultural advisors would have been more useful here or simply establishing a precedent for not publishing books in which existing, living real world cultures are used is a better future strategy.

And yes, I have the book. Ordered it on day one. It strikes me as more focused on an antique version of an old world take of the cultures of Polynesia, and it needed more modern references; a cultural input would have made sense. I tried determining if the author had an academic background and could not, but based on his other work I got at the same time (Perceforest) I think he's an earnest amateur who has likely not considered that in today's day and age, reading some old stuffy tomes and using them as a resource just doesn't cut it anymore. 

 

[NurgleHH]

On 1/3/2023 at 6:10 PM, SunlessNick said:

The problem with this argument is it assumes a default obligation to buy something - no one has any such obligation, and it is neither poor not childish, nor part of some "cancel culture" to decide not to spend your money on a particular company's products.

I am nearly 90% with you, only one think I do not agree is the fact of making personal decisions to public prompts. When someone makes a personal decision not to buy something it is ok, but when someone - and this happened here - says that TDM didn‘t answer his question and so he won‘t buy anything from them, it becomes public. And his intentions is to bring more people to follow. This is not a personal decision, this is more decry someone. When I have a problem with someone I talk personal to him and won‘t do it public, except he did it (like her). When he/she won‘t answer, I have to accept it and do not try to bring bad reputation over him. Maybe a normality in this times, but unfair. 

With the rest of your post I agree. Maybe the same will happen with a mythic India or other mythic earth books. When this all is released as „fantasy“ the same people will take it as normal, because it is only „fantasy“. At the end we should think about this books as a hobby product made by fans, and no historical or political statements. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

18 minutes ago, NurgleHH said:

When someone makes a personal decision not to buy something it is ok, but when someone - and this happened here - says that TDM didn‘t answer his question and so he won‘t buy anything from them, it becomes public.

the racism here is public! why wouldn't the response be public?

I'd like to say: I also will not buy anything from TDM, it's still being actively sold: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/413791/Mythic-Polynesia

[Jakob]

56 minutes ago, NurgleHH said:

I am nearly 90% with you, only one think I do not agree is the fact of making personal decisions to public prompts. When someone makes a personal decision not to buy something it is ok, but when someone - and this happened here - says that TDM didn‘t answer his question and so he won‘t buy anything from them, it becomes public. And his intentions is to bring more people to follow. This is not a personal decision, this is more decry someone. When I have a problem with someone I talk personal to him and won‘t do it public, except he did it (like her). When he/she won‘t answer, I have to accept it and do not try to bring bad reputation over him. Maybe a normality in this times, but unfair. 

 

TDM is a business, and as far as I am concerned, it is absolutely legitimate to openly criticise business policies. I know we‘re not talking Elon Musk here, but I did nothing more than:

- Point out where I disagree with TDMs business policies (their unwillingness or inability to engage with serious criticism of a product)

- State that I won‘t buy from a company with such business policies (and that I am kind of bummed because I expected better from them).

That‘s basic stuff. I‘m not calling for a boycott – of course, I expect that people who see things like me and stumble upon my post will consider whether they‘ll continue to buy stuff from TDM. But I also don‘t expect to change the opinion of anyone who sees things differently.

In principle, it‘s not different from stating „I won‘t buy products from companies who use singular they“ or „I won‘t buy products from companies who charge extra for the PDF.“ I might not agree with either of these statements, but I consider them legitimate statements to make, privately or publicly. So please, disagree with my statement, and do so publicly, but don‘t try to silence me by claiming that making my statement here was somhow not legitimate.

[g33k]

On 12/31/2022 at 11:55 AM, NurgleHH said:

... Blaming the whole publisher and threaten with „I won’t buy“ because they not answered you is a very poor reaction from a member of this new cancel culture (behaving like three years old children).

The book is  actively racist.
It is repeating tropes  used today by racists  in order to  justify their racism .
(This is coming from multiple people, both Polynesian and not, who live & work in the region; it is amply-attested by people qualified to speak on the subject; and nowhere -- that I have been able to find -- are such well-qualified speakers defending the book (I invite citations for any such, if you have them)).

I'm not saying that TDM did this intentionally... but they did  do it, and it's incumbent on them to address it.  And now their silence is speaking quite eloquently on their behalf: as they say, "silence is consent."  This isn't merely "not answering" some random minor request or comment.

It isn't "childish" to say -- with TDM silent -- that TDM stands complicit with racism (it's a shocking thing to say -- and profoundly disappointing -- but that's where we are today).

Neither is it "childish" to say that one would rather not do any business with someone selling  any  racist products.  That's a mature, thoughtful, ethical response.

 

On 12/31/2022 at 11:55 AM, NurgleHH said:

... TDM are are great publisher and made a lot of good things. Minimizing their work to one release is very poor. And one person started a personal vendetta against them and in this impersonal times of internet you jump to it. Sorry, very poor. I won’t buy any more translation of you as reaction…

TDM  has been  a great publisher.  But they are facing a new trial, and it remains to be seen if they  continue  being a great publisher.

If one book were simply a "poor product" (badly written, badly edited, etc) that would be one thing -- an embarrassing lapse in professionalism & quality-control.
This book is not that thing (unfortunately).

But your assertion that it's all "one person" and all a "vendetta" is a classic dismissive ad hominem attack; and also factually wrong:  on this very forum, in this very thread, is a counter-example (user TrippyHippy, 11th post in-thread)
 

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by g33k

[TrippyHippy]

It may need to be double checked, but it appears that Mythic Polynesia has been withdrawn from drivethrurpg again.

Hopefully, this means progress is being made and we can all move on. I’d still appreciate an official statement to address concerns though.

 

[Raleel]

It does appear to be down. I am unable to find any reason why.

[AndreJarosch]

Still available in the STORE of TDM: 

https://the-design-mechanism.mybigcommerce.com/mythic-polynesia-pdf/

[Bromo]

I just picked up this and I am excited !!  I love settings that are set in Heroic eras in non European places.  And I scanned through the PDF (I also ordered a hardcopy) and it looks like it's going to be great !!  After reading it this is the kind of thing I would love to run !

[Ali the Helering]

On 1/17/2023 at 6:05 PM, Bromo said:

I just picked up this and I am excited !!  I love settings that are set in Heroic eras in non European places.  And I scanned through the PDF (I also ordered a hardcopy) and it looks like it's going to be great !!  After reading it this is the kind of thing I would love to run !

Have you read any of this thread?

[General Kong]

@ Bromo: Don't bother. Enjoy your game.

[g33k]

On 1/18/2023 at 2:44 PM, Ali the Helering said:

Have you read any of this thread?

I presume that was a report of disagreement with the objections voiced

.

[Ali the Helering]

21 hours ago, g33k said:

I presume that was a report of disagreement with the objections voiced

.

Yep, but I was advised that he is a troll, and not to respond further