Mobile Orlanth/Lightbringer Temples & Shrines

[Erol of Backford]

5 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

When I talked on that subject for a podcast a couple of years back

I listened to that one specifically last week! I'll have to get some time for the others... thanks!

[Bill the barbarian]

13 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

I suppose that is correct but I was thinking on the troop of baboons being the "mobile shrine" combined with their ancestors all being worshipers. Could they not build a fire anywhere they had a shaman and dance?

In answer to the bolded and italicized point, that was the "great question" I suggested EricW post to Q&A... I was wondering about that as well! Shamans and mobile shrines...Hm! But to the first point, it has been a couple of years and I have not thought about WW since then... I seem to recall that a french publication hinted at Hender's Ruins having import to the baboons specifically, beyond it's being a gateway to other realms. Again, there was not a lot of material to hang a theory on. I wonder if Jeff would like to weigh in on that thought.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Richard S.]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

When the baboons danced and their ancestors were summoned at Hender's Ruins wouldn't it have been an example of a portable temple/holy site or would Hender's Ruins be a holy site for baboons?

I think Hender's Ruins is a holy site, which counts as a temple when enough of them gather. If I remember correctly they say it used to be the capital of a great baboon empire.

Edit: Monkey Ruins are the old capital, and it wasn't an empire sofar as I've found, though I still think Hender's Ruins are probably a holy site.

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Would the ancestors not count as worshipers as well?

Daka Fal worship ceremonies count ancestors among the initiates, so even small families can have a functional shrine to him without needing to be initiates themselves.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Richard S.

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 11/14/2022 at 5:17 PM, jajagappa said:

 ........

Issaries - yes, I can definitely see the Goldentongue caravan masters maintaining mobile shrines.

Regarding Issaries, if I recall correctly any Issaries market is also a temple according to Cults of Prax.  So not a mobile shrine per se, but for your Make Market rune spell you get a buy one, get one free deal.  And four carved staves are pretty portable. 

 Of course I can't know now how the new gods book will treat that.

Of course that does not preclude also having a mobile shrine, if you have an Issaries holy artifact or relic.  

What would an Issaries artifact/ relic be like?  How about

- Issaries' First Lunar?  Like the first dollar you will see framed at some businesses?  If not Issaries then one of his sons?

- A pot traded in the first trade described in Cults of Prax?  Or even a shard thereof?

 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
Examples of relics

[Akhôrahil]

I like mobile temples for Lokarnos (wagons) and River Gods (barges) as well.

Probably anything with a Movement rune would work - should Mastakos shrines even be allowed to be stationary? 😉

[French Desperate WindChild]

9 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Regarding Issaries, if I recall correctly any Issaries market is also a temple according to Cults of Prax.  So not a mobile shrine per se, but for your Make Market rune spell you get a buy one, get one free deal.  And four carved staves are pretty portable. 

 Of course I can't know now how the new gods book will treat that.

Of course that does not preclude also having a mobile shrine, if you have an Issaries holy artifact or relic.  

What would an Issaries artifact/ relic be like?  How about

- Issaries' First Lunar?  Like the first dollar you will see framed at some businesses?  If not Issaries then one of his sons?

- A pot traded in the first trade described in Cults of Prax?  Or even a shard thereof?

 

 

with all the doubt I have about my own memory I think the market is considered as a temporary temple (when the spell ends there is no more temple) it is more the result of the spell (sacred place for Issaries, under his protection - same than in a temple - ) than the place to worship the god (however I think, not sure, that you are able to worship the god too but the main point is the protection.)

[Erol of Backford]

19 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Hender's Ruins

Sounds like someone needs to find a particular spot to an underground temple there and they need Ernalda's Mirror to see where it is...

12 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Issaries' First Lunar

You speak blasphemy! It would never be an Issarie's relic! Maybe a guilder but not a Lunar, definitely not... Maybe a Gold Wheel Dancer in coin form or an actual Gold Wheel Dancer in its implement form? A golden Staff (I like that for sure) maybe topped with the hawk from the Golden Horde Standard or the figurine from the Lighthouse?! (here we go again...)

 

Edited November 18, 2022 by Erol of Backford

[Squaredeal Sten]

10 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

......You speak blasphemy! It would never be an Issarie's relic! Maybe a guilder but not a Lunar, definitely not... Maybe a Gold Wheel Dancer in coin form or an actual Gold Wheel Dancer in its implement form? A golden Staff (I like that for sure) maybe topped with the hawk from the Golden Horde Standard or the figurine from the Lighthouse?! (here we go again...)

 

You are right, definitely not a Lunar, that would be anachronistic.  Even a Sartarite Guilder would be from Time.  We are probably looking for a much older lump of silver.  Wasn't Issaries the inventor of money?  We must consult a Lhankor Mhy about this.

[mfbrandi]

2 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

You are right, definitely not a Lunar, that would be anachronistic.  Even a Sartarite Guilder would be from Time.  We are probably looking for a much older lump of silver.  Wasn't Issaries the inventor of money?  We must consult a Lhankor Mhy about this.

Once it has been exchanged, all money is sacred. Some say that the more a coin changes hands, the more the god is present in it. That coins left in a chest too long are cursed.

There is a breakaway sect of Issaries misers who have replaced the mobility rune with a stasis rune. The orthodox of Issaries and Mostal both think this new sect is crazy. Where the sect is taking off, GDP is through the floor.

Conversely, there is a breakaway sect of LM dedicated to the free exchange of information. Their temples always have a shrine to Arachne Solara.

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 minute ago, mfbrandi said:

Once it has been exchanged, all money is sacred. Some say that the more a coin changes hands, the more the god is present in it. That coins left in a chest too long are cursed.

There is a breakaway sect of Issaries misers who have replaced the mobility rune with a stasis rune. The orthodox of Issaries and Mostal both think this new sect is crazy. Where the sect is taking off, GDP is through the floor.....

No breakaway sect, but instead this would be heretics and cheats punished by tbe God and  possessed by the spirit of Raw Greed.

[mfbrandi]

4 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

possessed by the spirit of Raw Greed

Spirits of reprisal can be perverse (Chalana Arroy attacking the immune system), and I confess I don’t really like that. Wouldn’t it be better for Issaries’ spirit of reprisal to cause the offender to donate all her wealth to economically productive causes without any hope of seeing a return?

Raw greed might take cash out of circulation and harm the holy GDP — unthinkable!

[Squaredeal Sten]

4 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Spirits of reprisal can be perverse (Chalana Arroy attacking the immune system), and I confess I don’t really like that. Wouldn’t it be better for Issaries’ spirit of reprisal to cause the offender to donate all her wealth to economically productive causes without any hope of seeing a return?

Raw greed might take cash out of circulation and harm the holy GDP — unthinkable!

I never seen evidence of charitable foundations in the Gloranthan literature.  But anyway, none of the spirits of reprisal possess the offender to reverse their behavior.  They all seem to me to be designed to make the offenders' lives unpleasant so that they will voluntarily change (though under duress), or alternatively end the career of a player character.  that's a broad brush, and some of them don't seem very rough, while some like Mallia's will kill quickly.

We are getting pretty far off the original topic of mobile shrines.

[Erol of Backford]

11 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

We are getting pretty far off the original topic of mobile shrines.

If the currency is a relic/mobile shrine then we are on topic - OK... would Pinchining have been a mobile relic/shrine in animated form?

[jajagappa]

On 11/18/2022 at 11:19 PM, Erol of Backford said:

OK... would Pinchining have been a mobile relic/shrine in animated form?

No, Pinchining is a (once-again) living being - not something that is worshiped.

A Hero with an established Hero Cult might be considered a mobile "relic/shrine".

[Squaredeal Sten]

As I read the RQiG section on rune points, Sanctify plus a holy day is the minimum you need to regain RP.  A shrine or temple lets you regain without having to cast Sanctify, and gives you a bonus on the roll.

As I read the RQiG section on temples, a temple or shrine is usable to regain rune points even without a congregation present.  The congregation is necessary to establish a temple, and only  implicitly to keep it a temple. 

(I also deduce that making a  temple additionally  needs a wyter, and probably requires a heroquest, discussed in an older thread.  At least a big and long ceremony such as the consecration of the Temple of the Reaching Moon.  Maybe the forthcoming GM book will clarify this.  The RQiG book seems  oriented toward newer characters and starting a campaign, while establishing a temple would be for much more experienced Adventurers with enough game history to gather a congregation and to politic with a High Priest .)

Though it is not specified how long it stays a temple if the congregation is absent, I  judge that is at least a season because of the seasonal holy day function for regaining Rune Points.  YGMV.  The example of the baboons and Hender's Ruin would indicate to me that temple status degrades VERY slowly.

So, back to the original mobile temple topic: while the Mobile Orlanth temple may just be a cart and the priest's Sanctify, I can easily believe that with a temple's holy relic in the cart and a congregation, it can at least be a shrine.  And discussion of the Praxian tribes in another thread, argues that the Praxian clans must also have portable shrines, because otherwise the nomads are going to have a hard time.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
Mostly spelling. Prax.

[Erol of Backford]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

No, Pinchining is a (once-again) living being - not something that is worshiped.

But didn't Urrrggh the Ugly worship gold and Pinchining coming back to life/being reunited with mundane form was a result of said worship. I'd argue (well or not) that as Pinchining, not unlike Speaking Wheel in trumpet form/whatever after being separated from the Bright God would both be holy relics to some degree as they were created or shaped as a result of being touched by worship. Speaking wheel was part of a god was it not?

If a temple is sacred because of the worship done there would an object also have a similar reverence for the congregation even more so than a building? Interesting for me nevertheless.

[scott-martin]

On 11/18/2022 at 11:40 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

I never seen evidence of charitable foundations in the Gloranthan literature.

Oh you guys. Community philanthropy is the heart of every temple or shrine that accepts (or demands) public donations. What they do with the income is a factor of the cult in question. 

But this is really an excuse to glorify Issaries. Yes, every sanctified Market is still a portable shrine at least. The business of the Market is more comfortably pursued from a stationary position so most merchants prefer to travel to a fresh site, hammer in the pegs, set up the shingle and then you can "pray" before striking site and moving on to the next campground. But if you're rolling slowly enough or can pause to make transactions there's nothing theologically wrong with running a truly mobile 24/7 operation from a barge or wagon or whatever. If you can make orders and take the money remotely you can in theory run the shrine as a delivery service, always on the go. Obviously this has tactical ramifications for sick or suppressed lightbringer cultists who need a shrine to come to the door bearing staples but also friendly rune point replenishment.

IMG Raw Greed is increasingly a self-policing factor within the monetary supply itself, a poison chase card of sorts that is only magically effective on repeat or prolonged exposure. We see a lot of fancy rocks in the course of the day but every one you covet raises the odds that you're going to overdo it and suffer the effects of Unfree Unexchange or hoarding. But it's all just statistics and the luck of the draw, really. God doesn't say "this one over here is pushing the margins, send the rock." If you push the margins too hard, you tend to acquire the rock that takes you down. And there are various therapies. I like the notion of the countercult whose job it is to take surplus cash out of circulation and seed the treasure cycle to come.

There are other "chase coins," Issaries is indeed the father of silver so why not set various tribes of currency circulating around the world, fetishized commodities with their own little uncanny spirits each a little less fungible than their dumb cousins.

Hyena is the real spirit of reprisal IMG and is also managed by the cult bigwigs. If you get the pelt and can't turn it around, you basically need to settle your earthly affairs and liquidate all your crap to fund the Desert Track ahead. I like to think this can be good for people (the ones who come back are healthier and get their groove back) but there's usually great wailing and gnashing of teeth. And many simply never come back.

Edited November 20, 2022 by scott-martin
more magic coins

[Bill the barbarian]

7 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Oh you guys. Community philanthropy is the heart of every temple or shrine that accepts (or demands) public donations. What they do with the income is a factor of the cult in question. 

I was going to mention the Teelo Nori (is it?) poor house in Pavis. Of course some of the callous might call it a front for the empire.

[Ali the Helering]

18 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I was going to mention the Teelo Nori (is it?) poor house in Pavis. Of course some of the callous might call it a front for the empire.

There is an element of it involved with clan wyters, or other 'community spirits'.

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

Hyena is the real spirit of reprisal IMG and is also managed by the cult bigwigs. If you get the pelt and can't turn it around, you basically need to settle your earthly affairs and liquidate all your crap to fund the Desert Track ahead. I like to think this can be good for people (the ones who come back are healthier and get their groove back) but there's usually great wailing and gnashing of teeth. And many simply never come back.

I have started a fake hyena skin racket for middlemen who want to drop out of the rat race — there is a secret drop off point for all that deep desert kit they don’t need, and I have a cousin who will sell them a new identity for a new town (and hum Bowie tunes while doing it).

[scott-martin]

17 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

there is a secret drop off point for all that deep desert kit they don’t need

DUMB THEORY:

There are no desert trackers. Those people out there are doing something different. There is no economically viable trade route across the Genert Wastes. When we talk about What Caarith Did we're really talking about something else, one of those complicated concepts of identity that you just can't uh communicate in any normal combination of Harmony + Change. You need to invest in a special rune for this stuff.

[Squaredeal Sten]

5 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I was going to mention the Teelo Nori (is it?) poor house in Pavis. Of course some of the callous might call it a front for the empire.

Well OK that's sort of a charitable foundation.  Which doesn't prevent it also being a front for the empire.

[Bill the barbarian]

Well, that's because it was....

😉

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

I think the emphasis on cults with ties to the Mobility rune is misguided.  Since one of the first mobile shrines was the Wooden Sword, for a cult that has nothing to do with Mobility.

[Erol of Backford]

7 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I was going to mention the Teelo Nori (is it?) poor house in Pavis. Of course some of the callous might call it a front for the empire.

Of course its a front or are you thinking the Lunars are like the Gracchi brothers in Rome and that they are pushing for Ager publicus, kind and generous, share the wealth... labor reform and all that? Nutz. They get the pour and sick to come in and then they deport them to be used as Bat Food. Its the real goings on with the whole Teelo thingy.

And of course its related to the thread, the Bat is the biggest of all mobile shrine/hero cults well isn't it?

6 hours ago, scott-martin said:

There are no desert trackers. Those people out there are doing something different. There is no economically viable trade route across the Genert Wastes.

I agree they are Indiana Jones treasure hunters... nothing more but hey that's cool and there are lots of ancient artifacts to hunt in the Wastes...  though I recall reading about a trade route to Su Lo Cha in the far Northeast... (I'll start another thread...)