Humakti and Bows

[svensson]

23 minutes ago, Soccercalle said:

Does the sword curse applies to Humakti that converts to Yanafal Tarnils and starts using scimitars (a type of sword)? Isn't Humakt converting to YT quite "common" in the canons. 

I have nothing against the sword curse but would probably only have it affect "straight" swords. (That can further explain why YT uses scimitars).

We had a great big discussion about Humakt, Yanafal, and the differences thereof and came up with YGMV.

Some thought that Humakt and YT were almost Associated cults, so close as to be indistinguishable. I and some others strongly disagreed. There are good reasons in canon for and against each position. Where I personally came down was that Humakt at his core is a Storm god and the Storm pantheon's mortal enemy is the Red Goddess [or 'Scarlet Harlot' as I called her, to some amusement]. YT helped bring Sedenya into Glorantha, thereby upsetting the Compromise, and so AFAIC Humakt and YT are completely separate cults.

What does that mean for the Sword Curse? IMG, it means that no straight blade will serve the apostate and that it is only by the intervention of YT that curved blades will serve him.

But again, YGWV

Edited November 17, 2022 by svensson

[French Desperate WindChild]

If I remember Jeff ( = canon ? I suppose ^^) answered in this topic

 

of course our glorantha may vary but if i remember (again, how bad is my memory) answer was no real link / gate between the two cults (one doesn't protect from the other's reprisals )

[Soccercalle]

12 minutes ago, svensson said:

We had a great big discussion about Humakt, Yanafal, and the differences thereof and came up with YGMV.

Some thought that Humakt and YT were almost Associated cults, so close as to be indistinguishable. I and some others strongly disagreed. There are good reasons in canon for and against each position. Where I personally came down was that Humakt at his core is a Storm god and the Storm pantheon's mortal enemy is the Red Goddess [or 'Scarlet Harlot' as I called her, to some amusement]. YT helped bring Sedenya into Glorantha, thereby upsetting the Compromise, and so AFAIC Humakt and YT are completely separate cults.

What does that mean for the Sword Curse? IMG, it means that no straight blade will serve the apostate and that it is only by the intervention of YT that curved blades will serve him.

But again, YGWV

Good arguments. The issue of apostates haven't came up in my campaign. But I would probably use the sword curse. With the add on that becoming an initiate of YT would break the curse for curved blades.

I totally agree that Humakt and YT are enemies. But I can - at the same time - see that the ockupation could lead some "sword orlanthi" to convert from Humakt to YT.

[Andrew M]

51 minutes ago, Soccercalle said:

If you really wanted a Humakti to use gifts or magic for bow (or any other weapon) you could combine YGWV and MGF and create of a myth when Humakt had lost his sword and needed to use another weapon. Perhaps a bow if the enemy was flying or far away. You could then create a subcult called something like "Humakt the archer" and make up a good story of why the PC is am member of that one. Maybe "Humakt the archer" did something that was important for your clan or so. 

If you use a subcult you dont have to change the majority of Humakti but just the ones in your subcult. That may only be worshipped in a specific area or clan.

As the PC's are undrgoing initiation quests at the moment , if I can think of something clever by Monday I will try and incorporate this

 

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

In that case, why make the bow about Humakt, and not about the Star Captain founder?

Becasue the Star Captain is tied to an entirely different sub plot for the campaign so I never considered the idea.  Which is a good one

 

36 minutes ago, svensson said:

 

- Humakt's cult weapons [those taught to initiates and required for Sword of Humakt] are swords... not axes, maces, left-handed pandy bats, nothing else.

 

- Archers already have patron deities in both Aldrya and Yelm

- Lastly, Humakt's 'spirit of reprisal' in previous editions was the Sword Curse: break faith with Humakt and no sword will ever serve you again. You lose your grip on them and they fall to the ground or even shatter in your hand... yes, even sword with bound intelligent spirits in them. I think this is one of the best religious oath-breaker penalties in any game ever and have chosen to keep it in my game.

Now, again, YOUR Glorantha is absolutely gonna be different from mine. Nothing wrong with that at all. But this is how it works in mine.

However 'Other Weapon' is one of the skills a Sword can have at 90% to qualify.

I don't consider the existance of other dieties specialsing in archery to be a factor particularly when all of them are from different cultures, this is a game balance issue rather than a in game reason and I don't think it is a factor . Unlike all of your other points

I think that is still the spirit of reprisal and it is a factor I had not considered. I don't expect players to manage to get themselves expelled from their cult so it rarely enters my thinking.   At a minimum the blessed bow would break and quite possibly I would consider that by applying a gift to the bow they also will cause Humakt's curse to apply to their use of bows. But this may also make me rethink things

 

FAirly certian that Humakt's curse effected Yanafal Tarnils and that is why he and his cult use curved swords, so a Humakt to YT Defector in my game would not be able to use straight swords. Also the other pc's would kill him but thats a character thing not a mechanics thing

 

[svensson]

@Andrew M Well, YGMV, mon frere.

I think the subcult idea isn't a bad compromise for your game though. I don't know if it shows up in mine, though.

The benefit to a 'Bow-Humakt' subcult is that it gives Storm worshipers in your campaign access to some fairly nice archery Rune Magic [Arrow Trance, etc.] that neither Odayla or Yinkin teach.

[Andrew M]

2 minutes ago, svensson said:

@Andrew M Well, YGMV, mon frere.

I think the subcult idea isn't a bad compromise for your game though. I don't know if it shows up in mine, though.

The benefit to a 'Bow-Humakt' subcult is that it gives Storm worshipers in your campaign access to some fairly nice archery Rune Magic [Arrow Trance, etc.] that neither Odayla or Yinkin teach.

YGMV Absolutely and I have appreciated all the points made.

I doubt I will go as far as to allow things like Arrow Trance that probably goes further than I intend and in that case I would certainly have to remove things like Sword Trance, 

[Soccercalle]

29 minutes ago, Andrew M said:

YGMV Absolutely and I have appreciated all the points made.

I doubt I will go as far as to allow things like Arrow Trance that probably goes further than I intend and in that case I would certainly have to remove things like Sword Trance, 

You should to that. It would be unwise to add too many powerful things without taking away some. I would probably limit it to gifts and maybe ONE rune spell + multi missile & speedart

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Andrew M said:

Becasue the Star Captain is tied to an entirely different sub plot for the campaign so I never considered the idea.  Which is a good one

...

I find that having cross-linkages between different sub-plots is more of an asset to campaigns, than a detriment.

+1 for bows being the Star Captain thing, Swords being the Humakt thing, and a player (who wants both Sword+Bow as Cult bennies) has to join both Cults.
 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 hours ago, svensson said:

@Andrew M Well, YGMV, mon frere.

I think the subcult idea isn't a bad compromise for your game though. I don't know if it shows up in mine, though.

The benefit to a 'Bow-Humakt' subcult is that it gives Storm worshipers in your campaign access to some fairly nice archery Rune Magic [Arrow Trance, etc.] that neither Odayla or Yinkin teach.

The solution to that is to give those hunting cults some archery rune magic.

[hipsterinspace]

3 hours ago, svensson said:

- Humakt's very symbol is the sword Death... not only the Rune, not only the life condition, but the actual physical item

- Humakt's cult weapons [those taught to initiates and required for Sword of Humakt] are swords... not axes, maces, left-handed pandy bats, nothing else.

I think that if the blessed weapon was supposed to be restricted to swords (or even melee weapons), they would have written "bless specific sword" rather than "bless specific weapon". Quite explicitly "any other weapon attack" at 90% is included in the list of potential options to reach the rank of Sword. You must still have 90% in sword, but I'd say the god of killing is a pragmatist and is willing to show favor to whatever tools his followers prefer to use in carrying out his sacred work.

3 hours ago, svensson said:

- One of Humakt's geases [geasa] is 'Use no non-cult weapons'

It's also written in the core book that if they get a geas that contradicts or invalidates one of their previous gifts, they can take a different gift.

3 hours ago, svensson said:

- Archers already have patron deities in both Aldrya and Yelm

That is, if you are an Elf or if you are directly descended from Yelm in the male line, which most PCs aren't. Cult numbers point to the fact that most who practice archery in Orlanthi society are going to follow some aspect of Orlanth.

Maybe it's just because the groups I have played in and run have only ever sparingly engaged in combat encounters, maybe one in five sessions, but a lot of this stuff just seems like getting hung up on a desire to be the best warrior based on damage numbers. I have trouble seeing the problem when there's a whole social order that's built around other cults and their roles in society, with a notable degree of social realism, that make them far more interesting to play than being a sacred killer. If you want to be a killer and that's basically it, Humakt is there.

[JRE]

I would expect that to be unusual but not unheard of, specially if they get a nice bow as a heirloom. However I would be clear that if they lose the specific bow they lose the benefit, and bows are much more fragile than swords. Depending on the type of bow, even getting it too wet or in a fire, not to mention a deliberate weapon attack, can end it. Not that I would do it deliberately as a GM, but it is  better to warn the character.

I would use the geases themselves as what is Humakt's reaction. Use no non-cult weapons, that bow is a bad idea. Do not eat vegetables, Mistrust Uz, Mistrust Mostali, Humakt wants you to be an elf-friend. And so on.

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

The solution to that is to give those hunting cults some archery rune magic.

I agree. In my opinion adding some archery magic to hunting cults would be less of a change or disruption to canon than adding bows to the cult of Humakt. But that's not what we were discussing.

But you know, I think I'll start a separate thread on that, now that you mention it.

[JRE]

I would expect Orlanthi hunters to use mostly spears, javelins, slings, traps and nets. Bows are not weapons for wooded hills at all, and I do not see them as having normally any bow better than self bow. I know that the rules gives them composite bow as a racial weapon, but a people of rain and storm lovers should not use a weapon that can disintegrate (that glue) in a downpour. 

Nomads in dry areas (Prax, Pent) with little wood, long lines of sight and no use for stealth, those use composite bows.

YGWV certainly, but I see Yinkini as ambush melee fighters mostly, as the Alynxes themselves. Odayla as more of set spear and let them kill themselves. Foundchild yes, but it is an outsider brought from the chaparral.

[whitelaughter]

On 11/17/2022 at 2:52 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

Humakt is Death 100% agreed

 

Death is a sword... not for me : Sword is Death Yes true, 100%

Sword is the rune of death yes 100% agreed,

sword is a humakt cult weapon yes for sure.

 

But is sword the only "media" of death, no. Death is multi form. Humakt is carried and spread by Humakt but Humakt is carried and spread by other gods, with other weapons.

So my answer is not binary sword white, not sword black, but sword white, not sword grey

All true, but a sword is *only* useful for combat.

Hammers, axes, knives and mauls are all tools.

Spears and bows are hunting implements.

"sword white, not sword grey" still covers this of course.

 

[soltakss]

On 11/16/2022 at 1:50 PM, g33k said:

I fall into Jeorg's camp here, I think:  Humakt doesn't seem the god who would bless any weapon whatsoever.

Humakt defeated many opponents, so his worshippers can use most weapons.

I think that Humakt often blesses swords, but not always.

Where he thinks that a weapon shouldn't be used, he provides a geas for it.

One of the Adventurers in our Arganauts Campaign performed the Styx Shore HeroQuest, where he went to the Styx and forged a new Sword. He took a gift and geas, and almost opted to take the geas "Never use a Hammer of any kind" until I very kindly asked how he was going to forge a sword without using a hammer, so he changed it to Whips.

 

[Shiningbrow]

/rant on/ Why is it that MGF tends to boil down to "just give the players whatever they want"? One of the reasons I really like RQ is that there is the concept of sacrifice - that you can't just (simply) get everything you want. This way leads to Chalana Arroy priests who charge into battle wielding greatswords, hacking and slashing at any- and everything... And I personally dislike D&D for this very reason. /rant off/

I wouldn't allow it, for the mythic reasons written above. Not as a simple gift chosen at initiation.

If they want something on their bow, then either create a great reason for it (ie, sub-cult, or similar), or go and Heroquest for it! (and that latter, I consider to be much more MGF than saying "ok, have whatever you want").

There is another option here... create a character that's actually a Grazelander who's ended up in Orlanthi lands.

[Shiningbrow]

On 11/17/2022 at 3:50 AM, hipsterinspace said:

While that form is a sword mythically and it's the most important cultic weapon, to exclude other means is arbitrarily narrow and silly to me, it's not MGF.

I think the first part of your sentence explains why it's not "arbitrarily" narrow... It's decidedly reasoned and justified in its narrowness.

[hipsterinspace]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Why is it that MGF tends to boil down to "just give the players whatever they want"? One of the reasons I really like RQ is that there is the concept of sacrifice - that you can't just (simply) get everything you want. This way leads to Chalana Arroy priests who charge into battle wielding greatswords, hacking and slashing at any- and everything...

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I think the first part of your sentence explains why it's not "arbitrarily" narrow... It's decidedly reasoned and justified in its narrowness.

I resent my invocation of MGF being taken in the most bad faith possible way. I'm not just giving someone whatever they want without cause, I have followed rules as written and I think I gave my justification pretty clearly:

On 11/17/2022 at 12:08 PM, hipsterinspace said:

I think that if the blessed weapon was supposed to be restricted to swords (or even melee weapons), they would have written "bless specific sword" rather than "bless specific weapon". Quite explicitly "any other weapon attack" at 90% is included in the list of potential options to reach the rank of Sword. You must still have 90% in sword, but I'd say the god of killing is a pragmatist and is willing to show favor to whatever tools his followers prefer to use in carrying out his sacred work.

It doesn't mean swords aren't still important, they are clearly the most important cultic object regardless and a 90% is still required to become a Rune Lord, but I'm with soltakss here: Humakt has learned death in many forms and defeated many other gods, if Humakt didn't want someone to use a particular weapon he would give them a geas preventing its use. Almost all of his magic is still dedicated to the use of swords, so taking a gift on a bow is going to give you a lower return if you're just looking to be a munchkin.

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

There is another option here... create a character that's actually a Grazelander who's ended up in Orlanthi lands.

There's a notable Humakt subcult among the Grazelanders, Hiia Swordsman, who serve as the bodyguards of the Feathered Horse Queen. I'm guessing they fight as heavy cavalry given their way of life and the duties they are expected to carry out, and as such I'd assume some of them would have a gift for a bow or lance as their preferred tool of Humakt's will.

[Shiningbrow]

11 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

 if Humakt didn't want someone to use a particular weapon he would give them a geas preventing its use

8ut, he has!

Humakt also has the Truth Rune, and wants his followers to tell the truth at all times, and not be dishonrouable. For some, this has been specifically geased - but not for others. To suggest that he's ok with assassination and ambushes would be silly just because someone wasn't specifically geased against them.

Granted, this would also imply that his followers shouldn't trust a lot of different races, or ever wear any armour....  But I'd put that in the same category as above - not fully geased, but certainly "how to show your devotion".

Looking at the geas table, we'll see that the geases are not all equally distributed.  Some are at only 1% (eg, never lie), some go as high as being 5% (never ambush). "Use no non-cult weapons)" has a 4% range. This indicates that the sword is a pretty big thing, and non-cult weapons are also a pretty big thing. (Shields don't have it very good either!)

12 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

There's a notable Humakt subcult among the Grazelanders, Hiia Swordsman, who serve as the bodyguards of the Feathered Horse Queen. I'm guessing they fight as heavy cavalry given their way of life and the duties they are expected to carry out, and as such I'd assume some of them would have a gift for a bow or lance as their preferred tool of Humakt's will.

I wouldn't automatically jump to that conclusion... Especially given their title, and the history of Hiia. Perhaps after they've taken some gifts for their sword may they then take up other weapon gifts.

(not completely relevant, but IRL, ranged weapons aren't considered very sporting to those who primarily engage in melee combat. And bows are the weapon of choice for ambushes)

 

Another possible compromise... a gift on a non-cult weapon incurs an increased geas penalty...

[Shiningbrow]

12 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

There's a notable Humakt subcult among the Grazelanders, Hiia Swordsman, who serve as the bodyguards of the Feathered Horse Queen. I'm guessing they fight as heavy cavalry given their way of life and the duties they are expected to carry out, and as such I'd assume some of them would have a gift for a bow or lance as their preferred tool of Humakt's will.

BTW, from Storm Tribe, in the entry for the Hiaa Swordsman sub-cult - "Worshippers fight with sword and shield, even when mounted."

Similarly, in the Kargan write-up - "Despite their protestations, only their swords, and not their other weapons, glow with the Death Light of the Shining Sword."

Edited November 20, 2022 by Shiningbrow

[metcalph]

13 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

There's a notable Humakt subcult among the Grazelanders, Hiia Swordsman, who serve as the bodyguards of the Feathered Horse Queen. I'm guessing they fight as heavy cavalry given their way of life and the duties they are expected to carry out, and as such I'd assume some of them would have a gift for a bow or lance as their preferred tool of Humakt's will.

They could be foot-soldiers as they are recruited from the Vendref rather than the Grazers. 

Hiia's cult is described as having

Quote

chopped down a volley of magic Light Arrows, and then slew seven Golden Bow archers with thrown swords. The swordsmen pledged loyalty to the Feathered Queen, in life and death

KoS p94

However the swords-only tradition among his worshippers is not totally established because there's also this: 

Quote

There is another tale of Hiia Swordman, an outlaw whose exile brought him to Dragon Pass
even earlier, and who met the Pure Horse People in the hills and guided them to Ironhoof. This
swordsman was reincarnated in a cult of weaponsmasters in the time of the Feathered Horse
Queen. He shunned the bow because he had lost his left hand, and he made himself a breastplate
of turtleshell, which was later copied in the metal, bone, and wood cuirasses of the cult.

KoS p191

Rather than Hiia being a Humakti subcult, I think it probable that the Vendref worship Hiia and supplement it with Humakt worship whereas they could do so for other warrior deities (ie Hiia with Yanafal, Hiia with Storm Bull etc)

[hipsterinspace]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

BTW, from Storm Tribe, in the entry for the Hiaa Swordsman sub-cult - "Worshippers fight with sword and shield, even when mounted."

Similarly, in the Kargan write-up - "Despite their protestations, only their swords, and not their other weapons, glow with the Death Light of the Shining Sword."

The writers of the current edition don't seem to give much credence to Storm Tribe, it's no longer part of the canon and for me isn't a compelling case against running with the rules as written. I'll continue to give my players the flexibility within the rules as written in the core book, you're free to do otherwise.

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

They could be foot-soldiers as they are recruited from the Vendref rather than the Grazers. 

It's rather difficult to protect a mounted leader while on stuck marching on foot, and I'd imagine the Feathered Horse Queen is likely to be mounted. It just seems to me like a rather bad idea to go into battle or travel long distances without a bodyguard who can keep pace with you.

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Rather than Hiia being a Humakti subcult, I think it probable that the Vendref worship Hiia and supplement it with Humakt worship whereas they could do so for other warrior deities (ie Hiia with Yanafal, Hiia with Storm Bull etc)

Everything I've seen lists Hiia as a hero cult of Humakt (including the Well of Daliath entry). It seems like they're a very specialized subcult, bodyguards of the Feathered Horse Queen, in another thread it's mentioned that they're the ones who get the Strongblade rune spell.

Edited November 20, 2022 by hipsterinspace

[soltakss]

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

17 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

 if Humakt didn't want someone to use a particular weapon he would give them a geas preventing its use

8ut, he has!

Geases are individual and not cult-wide restrictions.

Humakt forbids his worshippers from learning and using the mace and maul, however any other weapons are broadly acceptable.

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

To suggest that he's ok with assassination and ambushes would be silly just because someone wasn't specifically geased against them.

If the whole cult should not use assassinations and ambushes, why is there a need for a geas?

The fact that there is a geas means that the activity geased against is allowed by the cult as a whole.

 

[Shiningbrow]

41 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Geases are individual and not cult-wide restrictions.

Humakt forbids his worshippers from learning and using the mace and maul, however any other weapons are broadly acceptable.

If the whole cult should not use assassinations and ambushes, why is there a need for a geas?

The fact that there is a geas means that the activity geased against is allowed by the cult as a whole.

 

As I wrote, I'd lean the other way, with the word "tolerated" (possibly only barely) being used for any things that are geased, but not on the individual. I take a geas to be along the lines of "I'll be paying very special close attention to you on this matter".

[JRE]

I propose there are two factors at play, Humakt the deity and Humakt the cult. The gifts and geas make clear the kind of things the deity does not want, but the lists are what a local temple will emphasize, and it will be different (IMG) in another temple. The gift and geas will always be mediated by a Sword that is expected to know the taker well. That is also important.

If the player is well known locally as an archer, has a heirloom bow as a worthy recipient of the gift, and is known not to be just a cowardly skirmisher, I see no reason not to allow the gift on the bow. 

One of the duties of the priesthood, but not of Humakt, is that the gift does not harm the community that supports the temple. That requires a certain control of choices.