Yelmalio Analogy for changes over the years

[Scotty]

15 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Maybe in the fuller God's book Yelmalio will gain a few good spells from his associates.

• Speak with Birds comes from Vrimak, and is a cult special anyway.
• Command Horse from Hyalor (Southern Peloria & parts of Dragon Pass)
• Clear Sight from Sun Bird (Impala & Sable Praxians)

One of my players is a yelmalio merchant, and was very excited by Command horse.

 

[Richard S.]

I think the biggest disconnect is that Yelmalio is primarily a Light god whose worshipers just happen to be soldiers, but we expect him to be primarily a soldier god whose worshipers just happen to use Light magic.

[Eff]

2 hours ago, Richard S. said:

I think the biggest disconnect is that Yelmalio is primarily a Light god whose worshipers just happen to be soldiers, but we expect him to be primarily a soldier god whose worshipers just happen to use Light magic.

I don't think that distinction means all that much on its own. For one thing, the standard sets of elemental associations from broader culture only apply infrequently in Glorantha- Fire is associated with being cool and dispassionate, Earth is associated with being cunning- and for another thing, the determination of what makes a "Light god" in Glorantha- ascetic, sex-repulsed- is plainly derived from the development of Yelmalio in the early period of Gloranthan gaming. I think it is just as valid to say "Yelmalio is a Light god, so Yelmalio should have a Rune spell that fires lasers that are mechanically similar to the Lightning spell in damage," or "Yelmalio is a Light god associated with birds, so Yelmalio spirits are likely angelic and angels famously form a heavenly army that smites people, Yelmalio should have relevant Rune magic to this." 

Answers entirely from within the "setting canon" are not especially meaningful to anyone who isn't already invested in the canon, and they also can't really explain why Yelmalio being a Light god means that Yelmalio worshipers are significantly more restricted in the boons from their god than Orlanth worshipers are. To do that, you have to step outside the setting and talk about the meaning or connections of this decision or that one. 

[metcalph]

34 minutes ago, Eff said:

and they also can't really explain why Yelmalio being a Light god means that Yelmalio worshipers are significantly more restricted in the boons from their god than Orlanth worshipers are. To do that, you have to step outside the setting and talk about the meaning or connections of this decision or that one. 

An in-glorantha answer might look like this.  Yelmalio is associated with the faraway Sky which has been separated from the Earth by Storm.  To bring themselves closer to the Light, the Yelmalion must use Truth, not in the sense of factual knowledge, but in austere knowledge of mystical wisdom.   The real question is not why Yelmalio is weaker than Orlanth but why Yelamlio is weaker than Humakt.  Death, sadly, is stronger than Light.

[Eff]

9 minutes ago, metcalph said:

An in-glorantha answer might look like this.  Yelmalio is associated with the faraway Sky which has been separated from the Earth by Storm.  To bring themselves closer to the Light, the Yelmalion must use Truth, not in the sense of factual knowledge, but in austere knowledge of mystical wisdom.   The real question is not why Yelmalio is weaker than Orlanth but why Yelamlio is weaker than Humakt.  Death, sadly, is stronger than Light.

That's not really an in-Glorantha answer, that's an out-of-Glorantha answer- Yelmalio worshipers are weak materially because the concept that Yelmalio represents is weak materially in the Gloranthan context. Mystic practice won't preserve your life against those things which might try to end it. Which is a perfectly fine answer to go with. (The weirder, loopier take on this might be that with Death as separation, Yelmalio is weaker than Humakt because embracing Humakt-Death-separation is part of mystic austerity... but that's not as good for explaining specific Yelmalio rules that aren't directly associated with Humakt.)

[metcalph]

27 minutes ago, Eff said:

That's not really an in-Glorantha answer, that's an out-of-Glorantha answer-

It is an in-Gloranthan answer in that it is one that could be made by a Gloranthan.  

27 minutes ago, Eff said:

 

 

[davecake]

On 11/17/2022 at 6:23 PM, MOB said:

Yelmalio cultists: "We win but not losing"

Less kind voices say they don’t lose only because they refuse to end the game. 

[davecake]

On 11/18/2022 at 2:32 AM, Richard S. said:

I think the biggest disconnect is that Yelmalio is primarily a Light god whose worshipers just happen to be soldiers, but we expect him to be primarily a soldier god whose worshipers just happen to use Light magic

What gets me is that Yelmalio isn’t even close to being good at ‘happening to be soldiers’. In the Cults draft he is, I think, the third best at fighting of the three different light gods that are also fighting gods in the book, after Polaris and Yelorna? Even maybe fourth, after Kargzant, which is just a slightly better sub-cult?

There seems to be a serious effort to maintain that Yelmalio must have no useful combat magic, not even spirit magic. Any reason a cult that love the bow can’t grant Speedart or Multimissile? Why a cult that loves spears can’t have Bladesharp? Why a cult whose pride, and biggest myths, are about standing firm and continuing to fight can’t have Vigor or Protection? Why, if Yelmalio are supposed to be so effective because of their perfect training and esprit de corps, why Humakt gets Morale but they don’t? 

This is one of the things that keeps being said about Yelmalio - that players are mistaken that Yelmalio is a serious fighting god. The real joke is that no, it’s Yelmalions who are mistaken that they worship a fighting god. Yelmalio obviously has no interest in having soldiers as worshippers… 

Yet the lore, before even Cults of Prax, tells us that Yelmalio troops are really dangerous an effective in battle, against any opponent, not just trolls - and then the RQ rules give us virtually no reason to think that is remotely plausible. 

(IMG, Yelmalio regimental wyters tend to grant something like Morale, just to give them a chance. Or even just mass Fanaticism, as their defensive abilities are not needed if they just keep the shield wall strong. Face Darkness, analogous to Face Chaos, would make a pretty good Yelmalio sub-cult spell)

 

Edited November 19, 2022 by davecake

[Darius West]

I also think that a warrior cult that has no weapon enhancement Spirit spells is dubious.  Obviously Yelmalio can't have firearrow, but it should have multimissile and speedart, and definitely Bladesharp.  It probably wouldn't hurt if they had some sort of defensive spell as well.

I know that Yelmalio gets gifts, and they include weapon masteries, but having access to a few other spirit spells won't seriously unbalance this cult. 

[Russ Massey]

The Sun Dome Templars are a professional fighting force. In large scale fighting this should give them major advantages against non-professionals such as tribesmen and barbarians. This is not easily represented in the skirmish level actions typically seen on the RPG table top, but if you created a random action chart for non-professional warriors (so one could cast a defensive spell, while his mate fires a bow and a third man charges the eneny, and the fourth chants his augmenting war song) while the Yelmalions can act uniformly and in perfect sync (like PCs always tend to) then you'd see the advantage in action. It's the Roman army vs the Gauls, where professionalism can defeat a numerical advantage with relative ease.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

There seems to be a serious effort to maintain that Yelmalio must have no useful combat magic, not even spirit magic. Any reason a cult that love the bow can’t grant Speedart or Multimissile? Why a cult that loves spears can’t have Bladesharp? Why a cult whose pride, and biggest myths, are about standing firm and continuing to fight can’t have Vigor or Protection

If Yelmalio losing his fire to Zorak Zoran means that his worshippers can not use fire magics, what does losing his weapons to Orlanth mean?  

But Ernalda provides Strength and Vigor while Aldrya and Yelorna provides Speedart and Multimissile.  All three will be present at the Sun Dome temple in Sun County.  What Yelm provides and whether he is also there is unclear.  Since there is no categorical prohibition on Bladesharp (which I'm not sure is useful for spears) or Protection, it doesn't follow that Yelmalions won't have it.  

But IMO standing in formation with a big pike trumps most spirit magics that their opponents have.

 

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

The real joke is that no, it’s Yelmalions who are mistaken that they worship a fighting god. Yelmalio obviously has no interest in having soldiers as worshippers… 

you don't understand 😛

 

Yelmalio, by luck, intelligence and skills, survived when the other gods were dead

but one day, the other gods came back from Hell

and here is the issue and the explanation

 

Yelmalio, the only one, of course seduced a lot of wives, of course as there was no competitor, and life (and lust) must go on.

but  they came back...

on his left, he saw Lodril, what can he do to compete with big oak spear ?!

on his right, he saw Orlanth, what can he do to compete with a poet warrior king ?!

... confine his wives

 

so you understand what provide Yelmalio to his worshippers .. ability to keep their wives at home (command hawk, the day, when they work outside to alert them if their wives are suspect), survey them the night (catseye) to follow them if they did something. And sunbright to show the fault to all and obtain a rightful judgement

you have even the magic anti-competitor like cloud clear against Orlanth...

Yelmalio was a very powerful war god... but too jalous now, he is focused on other affairs

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, davecake said:

Yelmalio obviously has no interest in having soldiers as worshippers… 

Yelmalio is a Golden Age warriors' cult, stranded in the Gods War and History.

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Since there is no categorical prohibition on Bladesharp (which I'm not sure is useful for spears) or Protection, it doesn't follow that Yelmalions won't have it.

Absurdly minimalist. We know that Yelmalians are happy to work with Humakti, and vice versa. There's your Bladesharp.

(And Bladesharp works on "any cutting, stabbing or hacking weapon." How exactly are you wielding your spear? That may be the problem)

Edited November 19, 2022 by Nick Brooke

[Jose]

I  think like Dave, Yelmalio is not about war, is about persistence and resilience. The Light which survived against all odds. If you are under the dominion of an Empire which consort with chaos, try to pervert your culture, tax your goods, and have powerfull magic units that sweep you away from the battlefield... If I were a young man of that clan/tribe/country... Maybe Yelmalio gives me the answers I desperately need. 

"When the wind stops, 

When the earth and waters are quiet,

When the fires are ashes, 

And the Crimson shadows grow strong... 

The time has come for the Last of lights to Shine! 

Come forth Yelmalio! Last light of Hope!"

Unknown poet, third age. 

 

Edited November 19, 2022 by Jose

[Jeff]

5 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Absurdly minimalist. We know that Yelmalians are happy to work with Humakti, and vice versa. There's your Bladesharp.

(And Bladesharp works on "any cutting, stabbing or hacking weapon." How exactly are you wielding your spear? That may be the problem)

Yeah, Yelmalio can learn Bladesharp by being a lay member of Humakt. Which is easy to do and IMG most warriors are lay members of Humakt for exactly that reason. At least most warriors capable of following Humakt's Code of Honor (which is supported by the cults of Orlanth and Yelmalio anyways) do.

[Baron Wulfraed]

15 hours ago, davecake said:

 Why a cult whose pride, and biggest myths, are about standing firm and continuing to fight can’t have Vigor or Protection? Why, if Yelmalio are supposed to be so effective because of their perfect training and esprit de corps, why Humakt gets Morale but they don’t? 

I could suggest it is that selfsame "pride" -- "We don't need no stinking magic assistance!"