Hunting Cults and Missile Spells

[svensson]

A question came up on another thread regarding hunter cults and missile weapon spells. The big question is 'Why do most hunting cults not have missile spells?'

I think I can answer that, sort of. These answers make sense to me, but I have no proof of my suppositions one way or the other.

Firstly, if you look at the spells provided by all cults over the four major pantheons [Air/Storm, Earth, Fire/Sky, and Lunar] you'll notice that a deliberate effort was made to NOT make all spells available to all pantheons. It's fairly difficult, for example, to get Sun Strike or Mindblast as a Storm cultist, and Lightning is almost unknown amidst the Lunars. It seems obvious that that was intentional by design.

Secondly, a lot of hunter cults are focused on an animalistic deity form. Yinkin, for example, isn't anthropomorphic like the Egyptian Bast. Yinkin IS a cat, and therefore does his hunting with claws and teeth. I can see why animal idolizing cults don't have missile spells in that context.

But that doesn't explain why humanocentric deities don't have them.

With Odayla, his conquest of Sky Bear gives him the three Head, Body, and Limbs of the Beast spells. But I don't think it would break the bank if he got Sureshot as well.

Foundchild has all the archery spells you could want, save for Firearrow and Arrow Trance.

Yinkin we have already discussed.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[Godlearner]

So hunting using missle weapons such as a bow was not the standard way until the invention of firearms. Most of the weapons used by our hunter ancestors were things like spears and clubs. Use of pits and traps was also pretty common. Bows just did not have the stoping power or the accuracy needed and would be used for mainly small game, birds and fish. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

Arrow transe is in my opinion a war spell not a hunt spell so it seems to me normal to not see it in any hunter god (and you don’t need to be in transe during 15 minutes to kill a beast)

foundchill is, for me, THE human hunter god.

the others, odayla included (is it the hunter or the bear ? ) are all beast or would say bestial gods

so use spears un close combat

and @Godlearnerpoint is important too : I m not sure that a bow (not modern one) is the most efficient weapon to hunt a boar or a bear

[Rodney Dangerduck]

10 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

. Bows just did not have the stoping power

Maybe true for bronze age earth and self bows, but Glorantha has comp bows with Speedart which have good stopping power

[Godlearner]

6 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Maybe true for bronze age earth and self bows, but Glorantha has comp bows with Speedart which have good stopping power

Our world also has them as well, but they were not used for hunting. 

[Bill the barbarian]

41 minutes ago, svensson said:

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Have to say I agree on the assertions here. From the meta game design it all makes sense, and coincidentally makes sense mythologically as well. Just one comment. 

 

51 minutes ago, svensson said:

But that doesn't explain why humanocentric deities don't have them.

 

I think, for my taste, that mythology should have greater weight than good game design. There should be a myth explaining a spell, before worrying about a spell fulfilling a cult void or need explaining a spell. I get it that from a gaming point of view (and a gamer's POV for that matter) having a select spell is a no-brainer.  But the sun of the son lacks spells or gains spells for reasons explained mythologically. That is the charm of RQ... until one does not get what one wants. Then oft, it becomes nerfed/broken.

Not saying you are guilty of this, in fact you're asking a question here, not asserting a point, so definitely innocent of such charges. Good exploration to my thinking. That is my 2 bolgs worth!

39 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

So hunting using missle weapons such as a bow was not the standard way until the invention of firearms. Most of the weapons used by our hunter ancestors were things like spears and clubs.

Interesting thought, I have not dug into the history of this, so I am unsure of the truth here. Any other historians/anthropologists have a thought on this? Or good articles to parse?

 

 

[Jeff]

Foundchild provides Sureshot, Speedart, and Multimissile - which is pretty much ALL the missile spells. Arrow Trance is elf magic - Mr. Archery himself doesn't have it.

Is the questionreally why doesn't Odayla the Bear God or Yinkin the Cat God provide missile weapon spells?

[Bill the barbarian]

Just now, Jeff said:

Foundchild provides Sureshot, Speedart, and Multimissile - which is pretty much ALL the missile spells. Arrow Trance is elf magic - Mr. Archery himself doesn't have it.

Is the questionreally why doesn't Odayla the Bear God or Yinkin the Cat God provide missile weapon spells?

Thanks Jeff, I was going to mention the oft forgotten spirit magics but... forgot!

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

With Odayla, his conquest of Sky Bear gives him the three Head, Body, and Limbs of the Beast spells. But I don't think it would break the bank if he got Sureshot as well.

Odayla is (or has become) a bear.  You don't see bears hunting with bows and arrows, do you?

 

[svensson]

14 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Foundchild provides Sureshot, Speedart, and Multimissile - which is pretty much ALL the missile spells. Arrow Trance is elf magic - Mr. Archery himself doesn't have it.

Is the questionreally why doesn't Odayla the Bear God or Yinkin the Cat God provide missile weapon spells?

Well, I mentioned in the top post that Yinkin is a cat. Cats don't use slingshots much 😂

From looking at things, it appears to me that hunter gods don't grant archery spells AND the beast transformation spells. It appears to be one or the other.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

With Odayla, his conquest of Sky Bear gives him the three Head, Body, and Limbs of the Beast spells. But I don't think it would break the bank if he got Sureshot as well.

Odayla is also associated with the bow in more than one myth (The Plundering of Aron; Odayla and Gavren).

[Bill the barbarian]

4 minutes ago, svensson said:

Well, I mentioned in the top post that Yinkin is a cat. Cats don't use slingshots much 😂

Mischievous children do, though... Cats being mischievous, one might be able to make a myth based on that... Dennis the Menace and Mr Wilson's cat (or how Whiskers turned the tale on that brat)?

Edited November 17, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Ludo Bagman]

In RQ2/RQ3 Odayla was just like Foundchild a subcult of the Hunter cult (with specific command spells), so the cult did have the archery spells. But this was probably too godlearnery (there is no father of all hunting gods). Now I imagine Odayla hunters more like trappers or persistence hunters - just drive the prey in a trap, river, or cliff. Note that the cult still has Speedart and is associated to Foundchild, so Multimissile can be learned at normal prices.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/prosopaedia/deities/h/hunter/

Yinkin was always the god of alynxes and is worshipped because of the hunting companion, not because he is the god of human hunters (well, he provides nifty spells that allow to hunt in the dark; bonus points if the hunter also learns Dark Walk from Orlanth.).

 

[svensson]

13 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Mischievous children do, though... Cats being mischievous, one might be able to make a myth based on that... Dennis the Menace and Mr Wilson's cat (or how Whiskers turned the tale on that brat)?

Oh great...

The Great God Hobbes and the Rune Lord are called Calvins... lol!

[Bill the barbarian]

Great, it is... yes indeed!

Edited November 17, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Dragon]

23 hours ago, Godlearner said:

So hunting using missle weapons such as a bow was not the standard way until the invention of firearms. Most of the weapons used by our hunter ancestors were things like spears and clubs. Use of pits and traps was also pretty common. Bows just did not have the stoping power or the accuracy needed and would be used for mainly small game, birds and fish. 

Prior to arrival of the horse, Native Americans used bows to finish off bison trapped in a chute. With noise, they drove the bison into prepared chutes. Then they used bows to finish off the bison. A single arrow would not have stopping power against a bison. But a trapped bison, or bunch, could be slowly hit by many arrows. Spears and clubs not so much in that example. The arrival of the horse changed how easy it was to get bison into chutes. The end result was the same, but on slightly larger masses of bison. Then the arrival of firearms changed it completely.

There are many similar lessons from Earthly history. Some of them used spears and clubs against the trapped animals.

If there is a similar myth about how to hunt big animals on Glorantha, the bow could certainly be used. But the myth wouldn't be much about how accurate Odayla or Yinkin is with a bow. The myth would be about the preparation,  e.g. traps and Devise skill, more than rune arrow magic. Note that 'traps' are a much broader category than ones that cause damage.

On another point, I watched a nature video where polar bears went after seals, big seals. The seals were congregating in huge masses and could potentially seriously injure the polar bears, or escape into the seas. But some seals had climbed the shore cliffs (the long way around). The polar bears, in groups, threatened them and chased them off the cliffs. Then they just walked the long way around and ate the crushed seals. Perhaps something similar could be the basis for an Odayla hunt scenario. No arrows involved at all.

[Bill the barbarian]

5 minutes ago, Dragon said:

On another point, I watched a nature video where polar bears went after seals, big seals. The seals were congregating in huge masses and could potentially seriously injure the polar bears, or escape into the seas. But some seals had climbed the shore cliffs (the long way around). The polar bears, in groups, threatened them and chased them off the cliffs. Then they just walked the long way around and ate the crushed seals. Perhaps something similar could be the basis for an Odayla hunt scenario. No arrows involved at all.

I am sure Eurmal would be involved in that myth in some way.

[svensson]

On 11/17/2022 at 11:14 AM, Godlearner said:

So hunting using missle weapons such as a bow was not the standard way until the invention of firearms. Most of the weapons used by our hunter ancestors were things like spears and clubs. Use of pits and traps was also pretty common. Bows just did not have the stoping power or the accuracy needed and would be used for mainly small game, birds and fish. 

I tend to disagree with that.

In the area where I live, the Native Americans used spears and bows to hunt quite a bit. When taking large game [deer, elk, etc.], it was usually a group effort that took the better part of a day. You wounded the animal and tracked it until it was exhausted and then put it out of its misery [insert Peaceful Cut here, pun intended]. Often several hunters would 'work' the same prey, shooting and tracking the quarry and then everyone in the village would get part of the kill.

And this only got more efficient after the introduction of the horse and mounted hunting.

What's more, I submit to you that a lucky hit with a composite bow [dmg 1d8+1] backed by Speedart [dmg +3] is a highly efficient way to put meat on the table. A lucky shot on an average RQG deer [Special Success w/ piercing weapon is an Impale result: average dmg 4+1=5 doubled = dmg 10 + Speedart +3 = dmg 13] would drop it in it's tracks. ANY location hit would cripple or instant-kill even a SIZ 26 elk from the RQ Bestiary. Even cutting that down by using a self bow would still get a crippled limb and bleeding wound, thus making the prey easier to track and finish off. So for the expenditure of 1 arrow and 1 Magic Point you've brought home enough meat to feed your family for a week.

[Bill the barbarian]

10 minutes ago, svensson said:

What's more, I submit to you that a lucky hit with a composite bow [dmg 1d8+1] backed by Speedart [dmg +3] is a highly efficient way to put meat on the table. A lucky shot on an average RQG deer [Special Success w/ piercing weapon is an Impale result: average dmg 4+1=5 doubled = dmg 10 + Speedart +3 = dmg 13] would drop it in it's tracks. ANY location hit would cripple or instant-kill even a SIZ 26 elk from the RQ Bestiary. Even cutting that down by using a self bow would still get a crippled limb and bleeding wound, thus making the prey easier to track and finish off. So for the expenditure of 1 arrow and 1 Magic Point you've brought home enough meat to feed your family for a week.

If you are looking for damage, nothing beats a javelin 1D10 used by a strong guy or gal, plus 1d2 or 1d3 DB and then kick in a bit of magic and/or specials or crits... ouch!

Edited November 18, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Godlearner]

9 minutes ago, svensson said:

Speedart [dmg +3] is a highly efficient

Against a target like a deer with no armor, Multimissle will actually be better. 

[svensson]

56 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

If you are looking for damage, nothing beats a javelin 1D10 used by a strong guy or gal, plus 1d2 or 1d3 DB and then kick in a bit of magic and/or specials or crits... ouch!

Sure, but you have to be able to Track, Move Silently, and Hide at much higher levels to get into range for a javelin. Otherwise, good point.

[svensson]

53 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Against a target like a deer with no armor, Multimissle will actually be better. 

Well, according to RQ Bestiary, black-tailed deer have 1 pt and elk have 2 pts of armor respectively. You make a good point, but Speedart seems to be more commonly available than Multimissile, so that was the example I chose.

Your point is well taken otherwise.

Edited November 18, 2022 by svensson

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Against a target like a deer with no armor, Multimissle will actually be better. 

It is, but one of my players has experienced multiple times how Multimissile is the best way in the game to get fumbles. 😉

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

If you are looking for damage, nothing beats a javelin 1D10 used by a strong guy or gal, plus 1d2 or 1d3 DB and then kick in a bit of magic and/or specials or crits... ouch!

Add Atlatl and Multimissile for when you need to turn it up to 11!

[Bill the barbarian]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Add Atlatl and Multimissile for when you need to turn it up to 11!

There's a reason them thangs cost half a years wages!