Hunting Cults and Missile Spells

[davecake]

On 11/18/2022 at 2:56 AM, svensson said:

A question came up on another thread regarding hunter cults and missile weapon spells. The big question is 'Why do most hunting cults not have missile spells?'

I think most hunter cults do have missile magic. Because most hunter cults are variants on Foundchild, and so have Sureshot. 

I also find the stuff about Yinkin and Odayla being associated cults of Foundchild, but that get no magic only the ‘right to participate in the Great Hunt’ to be pretty odd. I think most initiates of Yinkin or Odayla who hunt (which isn’t necessary all of them) can be initiates of Foundchild if they wish. Some do, some don’t - and if course, some may choose to use Foundchild magic other than missile magic (such as Beastmaster to lure prey into position for driving them, Disruption for small game, Mobility for running down prey, etc). It wouldn’t be that unreasonable for Odayla initiates, given the number of  Odayla bow myths, to get Sureshot as an associate cult spell (Yinkin might be more of a Draw Beast type). 
 

 

 

[davecake]

I loved how in HQG Odayla had an arrangement with Kolat shamans (now not restricted to Kolat shamans maybe?) in which the Odayla cultist could be given a spirit binding animal charm by a shaman, and then hunt down the appropriate animal and catch its dying breath and bind it into the charm. 

 It’s not specifically said to apply in RQG, but Foundchild is said to have the Binding spirit magic spell in the Cults draft I have, which I assume is a typo for Spirit Binding, and I would love to this idea come back - it is a great bit of extra magic for hunters, not too powerful but very useful, and very evocative. 

I’ve found that hunters are quite popular PCs, but players tend to chafe a bit at the limited magic, and also that hunters are a fairly skill centric character concept, but are notably deprived of skills, so they tend not to be terribly good at doing hunter type stuff. Letting them earn some spirits is at least one way to help the former. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

I loved how in HQG Odayla had an arrangement with Kolat shamans (now not restricted to Kolat shamans maybe?) in which the Odayla cultist could be given a spirit binding animal charm by a shaman, and then hunt down the appropriate animal and catch its dying breath and bind it into the charm. 

this point is for me very important to "judge" a cult

we should not focus on what provide the cult but more on what provide the culd and its circles / communities / ...

we should even not focus on what is the "title" of the god

 

Odayla and yinkin worshippers may be hunters but that is not for that if they follow their gods. That because they have affinities with their way of (wild) life. They are attracted by less civilization than others. And of course among them we may find "professional" hunters. But we may find bandit too, lovers (for the cat), thieves, or just wild survivors. And all of them need to know how to survive alone sometimes, to not be found by wives / husbands / milice / owners...

So yes all have sometimes to hunt, but they are not all hunters.

 

But let's focus on our hunters.. And for those who want to use bow (as said I think a lot use bow as secondary weapon, when you are able to ambush from a tree or to challenge a bear with hands, some don't need to waste too much time with bow *).

They walk in the wild, they meet the other people who are in the wild too... Of course they discuss, of course they exchange services, helps, news...  How many of them will say... "ah sorry I'm a bowman, but I will not ask my friend the shaman to teach me how to shoot multiple arrows. I like her but you know.... no... never"

in a wild circle there is no difference to learn spirit magic from your cult or from some friends outside the cult. You make a deal and you get it **

And maybe this bear-guy, who at the end finally love to hunt will join Foundchild in addition to his survival way to be inititated to what provides  to hunter

 

 

* but that's the same with spear (bladesharp..) or other weapons.

** and that's the same in other places, maybe your cult doesn't provide what you need, but there are guilds or individuals, associated or friendly cults, or any "other" community. And you can have  business with them, if it is not forbidden, it is allowed.

[svensson]

4 hours ago, davecake said:

I think most hunter cults do have missile magic. Because most hunter cults are variants on Foundchild, and so have Sureshot. 

I also find the stuff about Yinkin and Odayla being associated cults of Foundchild, but that get no magic only the ‘right to participate in the Great Hunt’ to be pretty odd. I think most initiates of Yinkin or Odayla who hunt (which isn’t necessary all of them) can be initiates of Foundchild if they wish. Some do, some don’t - and if course, some may choose to use Foundchild magic other than missile magic (such as Beastmaster to lure prey into position for driving them, Disruption for small game, Mobility for running down prey, etc). It wouldn’t be that unreasonable for Odayla initiates, given the number of  Odayla bow myths, to get Sureshot as an associate cult spell (Yinkin might be more of a Draw Beast type). 
 

 

 

Odayla doesn't offer any archery Rune spells.

I personally think it's because he offers Bear's Head /Skin /Claws. I don't recall seeing any of the Hunter cults that offer the Transform Animal spells and archer Runes spells together, and I think that was probably a deliberate game balance choice by the devs.

OTOH, I could be 180 degs off and it's just a typo 😁

I don't think Yinkin is a Draw Beast type. Yinkin is a cat and the act of hunting is as much a pleasure to him as eating he's caught. For that reason, I think his cult prefers the chase rather than mesmerizing their prey. But YGMV.

[whitelaughter]

The myth/practicality divide is a false dilemma, given the gods are supposed to be making their cults as strong as possible. So the 'crunch' factor should be considered ingame.

And Odayla wouldn't see any benefit. His Bear's Strength spell is increasing your Manipulation modifier, and your damage bonus: which applies to thrown weapons. It's simply more efficient to encourage cultists to use Bear's Strength for both hit and damage than to waste power developing/copying a new spell.

Mind you, he should be encouraging the use of the atlatl!

[Akhôrahil]

You should be able to pick up Odayla bow magic from a hero cult.

(BoHM p. 181.)

[soltakss]

Don't forget the Night Huntress, Yelorna, who grants Silver Track, Shooting Star, and gets Catseye from Yelmalio.

Sure, she doesn't grant Peaceful Cut but is a very effective hunting cult.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

I don't think Yinkin is a Draw Beast type. Yinkin is a cat and the act of hunting is as much a pleasure to him as eating he's caught. For that reason, I think his cult prefers the chase rather than mesmerizing their prey. But YGMV.

This sounds logical. 

 

1 hour ago, whitelaughter said:

The myth/practicality divide is a false dilemma, given the gods are supposed to be making their cults as strong as possible. So the 'crunch' factor should be considered ingame.

 

Absolutely against this idea, the gods as  min/max roll players sounds horrid! I will happily play the "the myth/practicality divide" weighing on myth over practicality every time, no dilemma here for me! If you prefer otherwise, no worries, gather your table and have at it!

[svensson]

1 hour ago, whitelaughter said:

The myth/practicality divide is a false dilemma, given the gods are supposed to be making their cults as strong as possible. So the 'crunch' factor should be considered ingame.

And Odayla wouldn't see any benefit. His Bear's Strength spell is increasing your Manipulation modifier, and your damage bonus: which applies to thrown weapons. It's simply more efficient to encourage cultists to use Bear's Strength for both hit and damage than to waste power developing/copying a new spell.

Mind you, he should be encouraging the use of the atlatl!

Most gods are not making their cults 'as strong as possible'.

For one thing, they can't. The Compromise limits them to acts performed in the Godtime. The portfolios they had when Yelm rose again in the sky is all they get.

The gods support their cults within the bounds of their portfolios and their reasons for existence. Some support the cults strongly, like Orlanth and Yelm. Some gods with minor portfolios do much MUCH less. The hunter gods are of the latter variety. Where Orlanth deals with every aspect of Heortling life [except those aspects directly attributed to Ernalda], the hunter gods deal with only one aspect of life. And that aspect is pretty small fry compared to, say, Humakt or even Daka Fal.

[Shiningbrow]

On 11/18/2022 at 3:14 AM, Godlearner said:

So hunting using missle weapons such as a bow was not the standard way until the invention of firearms.

What's your source for this assertion?

There's a huge gap of years between 'hunter ancestors' and firearms.. and in that gap is the use of the self bow to hunt for small game. Sure, deer is great when you can get it, but for the most part, hunting would be for much smaller animals...  (along with the aforementioned trapping). After all, archery as a weapon of war came long after archery as a hunting weapon, and hunters were recruited into warbands for their skills - not war archers that turned to hunting out of necessity.

[PhilHibbs]

4 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

The myth/practicality divide is a false dilemma, given the gods are supposed to be making their cults as strong as possible.

Huh? No they aren't. They are what they are, if anything it's the other way around. Cults are supposed to be making their god as strong as possible, and that involves reinforcing the god's nature. Straying from that can be dangerous or detrimental. And reinforcing your god often involves making personal sacrifices.

During hard times, a cult might focus on community survival. But there will often be a tension, the interests of the god may not always be aligned with the interests of the community, and that's great scenario fodder.

Edited November 19, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

What's your source for this assertion?

Are you kidding me? Its not like I am presenting a scientific study here. Yes, I have stated that small game was hunted with bows, but the major missle weapons used for hunting were spears, boomarangs, throwing sticks and atlatl.

[svensson]

For some reason there are people on this thread that seem to think that 'hunter god/ess' seems to mean 'no technology this side of Clan of the Cave Bear', and that simply isn't so.

Hunting and hunting gods use ALL technologies and applicable magics to bring the protein to the people. Sure, it's snares for small game and pit traps for migrating herds but ALL missile weapons... everything from javelins to crossbows [OK, so darts are under-kill and arbalests... well, that just depends on what you're hunting]... are happily used as another tool to get the job done.

Certainly, some societies are more primitive in their technologies than others. These societies will portray the hunter god as throwing spears and driving herds off cliffs. Other societies are far more sophisticated and will show the hunt as using beaters to drive prey into the kill zone for missile users.

[Godlearner]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Don't forget the Night Huntress, Yelorna, who grants Silver Track, Shooting Star, and gets Catseye from Yelmalio.

Sure, she doesn't grant Peaceful Cut but is a very effective hunting cult.

Shooting Stars are effective for killing and the rest of her spells are useful in hunting, but her association with Fire/Sky/Light just seems wrong for a hunter cult.

[SDLeary]

8 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Are you kidding me? Its not like I am presenting a scientific study here. Yes, I have stated that small game was hunted with bows, but the major missle weapons used for hunting were spears, boomarangs, throwing sticks and atlatl.

... and in some areas, bows. It's a regional and/or cultural thing.

A bow is certainly higher on the tech tree than a boomerang/throwing stick, so the period in Time matters. Once Bows were thing, then they were, well, a thing! You might not use the bow (early bows anyway) to take down large game, but your group might use them to ring the game in from a distance and harry them, while others move in with heavier weapons for the kill.

In areas that were resource poor, say wood or appropriate wood poor, then things like slings might take up the slack. At least until some enterprising person, with an obvious knowledge of archery, managed to come up with the Composite Bow.

SDLeary

[soltakss]

36 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Shooting Stars are effective for killing and the rest of her spells are useful in hunting, but her association with Fire/Sky/Light just seems wrong for a hunter cult.

Her Runes, in the Cult Compendium, are Fire/Sky and Death.

So, she shares the common Rune of Death with all Hunters. 

[PhilHibbs]

19 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Against a target like a deer with no armor, Multimissle will actually be better. 

I think Speedart is better for a hunter than Multimissile. The objective of the hunter is to either kill the animal or for it to escape unharmed. It serves nobody for an animal to run off wounded.

[Godlearner]

11 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think Speedart is better for a hunter than Multimissile. The objective of the hunter is to either kill the animal or for it to escape unharmed. It serves nobody for an animal to run off wounded.

It is a hunter’s ethical responsibility to stop the hunt and search for any wounded animal. However, I am not sure this was the same view in the past when people depended on hunting for survival. A wounded animal was easier to track and eventually take down.

In comparing Speedart to Multimissle we should also compare how much Multimissle since its a variable spell. If we are discussing Multimissle 1 the advantage is to Speedart, but if we are talking Multimissle 4 then there is no doubt that it is better. So, the question is Multimissle 2 better than Speedart? I would say yes, assuming low armor targets, but that is my opinion.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Godlearner
spelling

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Huh? No they aren't. They are what they are, if anything it's the other way around. Cults are supposed to be making their god as strong as possible, and that involves reinforcing the god's nature.

Nice!

 

1 hour ago, svensson said:

Hunting and hunting gods use ALL technologies and applicable magics to bring the protein to the people. Sure, it's snares for small game and pit traps for migrating herds but ALL missile weapons... everything from javelins to crossbows [OK, so darts are under-kill and arbalests... well, that just depends on what you're hunting]... are happily used as another tool to get the job done.

 

Dwarven cannons for the win!

 

1 hour ago, svensson said:

Certainly, some societies are more primitive in their technologies than others. These societies will portray the hunter god as throwing spears and driving herds off cliffs. Other societies are far more sophisticated and will show the hunt as using beaters to drive prey into the kill zone for missile users.

I was with ya all the way until this point, so that is not so bad. One has to ask about the tech level of those who used buffalo jumps, such as "Head-Smashed-In Buffalo Jump" just down the road a few hours from my home. I believe scientific thought was that the jump was used by a technologically sophisticated and very modern (as all the first nations being around 14000 years old in this area of the world would be considered) folk. The first nations folk of the area would agree.

 

1 hour ago, SDLeary said:

A bow is certainly higher on the tech tree than a boomerang/throwing stick, so the period in Time matters. Once Bows were thing, then they were, well, a thing! You might not use the bow (early bows anyway) to take down large game, but your group might use them to ring the game in from a distance and harry them, while others move in with heavier weapons for the kill.

 

Yep!

 

48 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

The objective of the hunter is to either kill the animal or for it to escape unharmed. It serves nobody for an animal to run off wounded.

Quite so!

 

35 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

It is a hunter’s ethical responsibility to stop the hunt and search for any wounded animal. However, I am not sure this was the same view in the past when people depended on hunting for survival. A wounded animal was easier to track and eventually take down.

 

This does seem plausible, I would imagine that the hunt would not end until the wounded, dangerous to the tribes, and precious food source prey was run to ground!

 

35 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

In comaring Speedart to Multimissle we should also compare how much Multimissle since its a variable spell. If we are discussing Multimissle 1 the advantage is to Speedart, but if we are talking Multimissle 4 then there is no doubt that it is better. So, the question is Multimissle 2 better than Speedart? I would say yes, assuming low armor targets, but that is my opinion.

I have seen foes levelled with the toss of one javelin and MM 3 (and a wee bit of strength) when similar foes would take MR after MR of time to drop with melee weapons. Oh and the foes had okay armour, but the first MM is still able to crit or special and the Javelins are still 1D10!

Edited November 19, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Akhôrahil]

44 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think Speedart is better for a hunter than Multimissile. The objective of the hunter is to either kill the animal or for it to escape unharmed. It serves nobody for an animal to run off wounded.

A hail of Multimissile tends to be extremely deadly, though. 🙂 

Makes a lot of holes in the fur or skin, though…

Edited November 19, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[HreshtIronBorne]

8 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

have seen foes levelled with the toss of one javelin and MM 3 (and a wee bit of strength) when similar foes would take MR after MR of time to drop with melee weapons. Oh and the foes had good armour, but the first MM is still able to crit or special and the Javelins are still 1D10!

This has been the case for our groups. A Bear's Strength plus a Strength spell makes any Javelin toss or Sling stone do deadly damage. I dunno if RAW has sling get half DB but, we do at our table. 

 

Our odaylan started with a bow but, quickly disliked it so the GM let him switch to javelin. Been kicking butt ever since. Lol.

[Bill the barbarian]

5 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

This has been the case for our groups. A Bear's Strength plus a Strength spell makes any Javelin toss or Sling stone do deadly damage. I dunno if RAW has sling get half DB but, we do at our table. 

 

Yes, according to a question I asked Scotty that now resides in the Well of Daliath.

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, svensson said:

For some reason there are people on this thread that seem to think that 'hunter god/ess' seems to mean 'no technology this side of Clan of the Cave Bear', and that simply isn't so.

a difference with me :

In my opinion Odayla is not a hunter god, he is a god who hunts, of course, but that is no its "definition"

Quote

Odayla The Sky Bear

Odayla is the son of Orlanth and the Lady of the Wilds. He is best known for his hunt of the great Sky Bear. One slew the other and took his skin to wear, fooling the ignorant.

phase 1) young boy, he was teached by his mother how to live and, as son of Lady of the wilds, he provides useful  material to survive outside. I think that is his best talents.

So there are hunters who follow his path ( without any technology by the way, mum has not after all).

For the same reason / right, he partipates to the great hunt. But that doesn't mean he is mainly a hunter.

 

2 hours ago, svensson said:

Hunting and hunting gods use ALL technologies and applicable magics to bring the protein to the people

is it the same for war gods ? then why a war god expects some of his followers  to no wear armor on random location ? is it for efficency ?

 

no the gods are the gods, they acts as they acts (capacities, passions, value, nature) and they provide "magic" they have.

 

But again, that doesn't mean their followers must do exactly what their gods do, must use exactly what their god used.

A bear hunter can use bow, just does not ask the god to provide bow magic, and manage to improve it (if they want) with other people :

 

phase 2) After all Odayla is Orlanth son, and when, adult or strong boy, he went back to his father's community, he was able to discuss with people not like him, and able to learn from them (raid, bow, spear, sword, anything provided by the "air tribe"). No reason his worshippers are not able to do it. They are the wild near / in the civilization, they  may merge both, but their "first" power is wildness, they are bear with human face or human with bear skin.

 

Quote

Initiates know the truth of course: that there were never two at all, but that the hunter and the hunted are always part of one being.

We may even seen it as   Orlanth was the hunter, Lady of the wild the hunted - in a bear shape -  and when they "meet" the result was one being Odayla their son.

 

After all a wise person said :

4 hours ago, svensson said:

Most gods are not making their cults 'as strong as possible'.

For one thing, they can't. The Compromise limits them to acts performed in the Godtime. The portfolios they had when Yelm rose again in the sky is all they get.

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Odalya as a "Bear who happens to hunt" has to be the one of the least appealing Gloranthan god concepts.  Imagine the recruiting materials.

The Orlanth Brochure:
"Roam the world having many adventures, throwing lightning, slaying dragons and mighty beasts.  Woo and bed countless beautiful women and goddesses.  Then lead the most famous heroquest, save the world, get The Girl, and become King of the Gods"

The Odalya Brochure:
"Be a bear"

 

[Akhôrahil]

BoHM: "Odayla: God of Hunting in all its fashions: the chase
from horseback, the stalk with bow and arrow, the
stampede of herds over cliffs, the capture of great monsters
in pits or with humble traplines and deadfalls."