In-game learning of sorcery

[Shiningbrow]

So, it's bound to come up at some point, so how would you treat a player who wants to learn sorcery from the very basics? All sorcery currently presented presumes the character has been learning it for years.

And, it's fairly clear from the chapter on sorcery that it's a lot more than merely knowing a Technique and a Rune.

i was thinking of having a Sorcerous Potential skill, that needed to get to 100% before being able to actually use any sorcery (or even Master a Technique/Rune). But I think that won't really work too well...

Anyone have any good suggestions?

[Godlearner]

You are right in saying that as the rules currently are, it is impossible to become a sorcerer in game. My solution was very simple, I changed the experience check rules to allow learning at a much quicker pace. I allow PCs take checks weekly.

[David Scott]

20 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Anyone have any good suggestions?

It's come up in my game.

Note that the major hurdle is achieving intellectual union with the source of the magic, so that means that anyone learning cult based sorcery would need to be an initiate to have the connection to begin with. 

The first thing to note is that Lhankor Mhy only teaches their sorcery to Lhankor Mhy initiates, so that's a dead end for most.

However note that Erin Mercy in the Starter set know healing sorcery, so I used the Johnstown temple complex as a place that could potentially teach healing sorcery, and used  W&E 118 & RQG 384 and assuming a Minimum INT 13.

Become an initiate of Chalana Arroy (the adventurer was already an initiate)

Master Rune (Fertility), takes 4 weeks then INT+POW+ Ritual practices+30% for a sorcerous mentor and library (allows a single adventure). Costs 1 POW.

Master technique (Command), takes 4 weeks then INT+POW+ Ritual practices+30% for a sorcerous mentor and library (allows a single adventure). Costs 1 POW.

Learn spell. takes a season of training (or research): 

Accelerate Healing (2mps+1/level).

[JRE]

My solution is similar to Godlearner's, though a bit slower. I play at one check per skill per adventure, and so far there are around 10-15 adventures per year, plus study / training in a seasonal basis. And sorcery spells get experience checks. That also means many POW checks, which means quite a few enchantments, a must for any sorcerer.

I also added quite a few old sorcery spells as treasure in Pavis, to increase the spells choice, while controlling what spells are available. Of course the sorcerer now is quite proficient in Old Jrusteli and Old Pavic, and that also took some time. The sorcery spells he knows are language coded, but he has used the new spell creation rules to actually change the language a spell is coded in. It was that or spend effort in New Pelorian.

[Shiningbrow]

The issue I have with the above comes from RAW. For example, for the Aeolians, "Children of the wizard caste are taught from age 6 the prayers and rituals that train their mind to manipulate the Runes. At age 16, those with a minimum INT of 14 select two Runes and one technique in which to specialize and spend the next five years mastering them. At age 21, they are acclaimed as wizards."

This clearly doesn't mesh with the current rules of 1 season to master a Technique or Rune, and I would in fact presume that it takes years for someone to even be able to do the actual Mastering without many years of meditations, rituals, etc etc long before they've even been given the option.

What I really don't want is a somewhat similar situation to D&D's multiclassing. Order of the Stick had a really good take on that fairly early in its run... with a very pissed of Varsarius.

[Godlearner]

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

What I really don't want is a somewhat similar situation to D&D's multiclassing.

There is no benefit in samling RQ sorcery, even with my sped up rules. You either go in all the way, or you do not.

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 11/19/2022 at 7:28 AM, Shiningbrow said:

So, it's bound to come up at some point, so how would you treat a player who wants to learn sorcery from the very basics? .....

 

It came up in my campaign too, with two adventurers.   And I asked questions here in the forum too, because I hadn't studied the sorcery rules chapter enough to understand let alone to play it. 

 I don't think a Sorcerous Potential skill is needed, it would just add complexity.  RAW, INT is your sorcerous potential.

The rules as written are hard enough.  For an adventurer to learn sorcery in play they will have to take many seasons off to study, preferably with a mentor in Jonstown as David Scott described.

One rune and one technique won't cut it, either.  To be competitive magic users they need more, and then they need to learn or research specific spells.  Lots of skill increases are needed.

They will study each skill in accord with the general learning rules.  Mastering each rune and each technique is a separate course.  Researching from scratch is just too hard and long, they need that mentor and library.

Since that amounts to retiring the character for an extended period, they have not followed up on it.  The characters have responsibilities.

 

Edited November 20, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
4th paragraph. and spelling.

[French Desperate WindChild]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

The issue I have with the above comes from RAW. For example, for the Aeolians, "Children of the wizard caste are taught from age 6 the prayers and rituals that train their mind to manipulate the Runes. At age 16, those with a minimum INT of 14 select two Runes and one technique in which to specialize and spend the next five years mastering them. At age 21, they are acclaimed as wizards."

This clearly doesn't mesh with the current rules of 1 season to master a Technique or Rune, and I would in fact presume that it takes years for someone to even be able to do the actual Mastering without many years of meditations, rituals, etc etc long before they've even been given the option.

What I really don't want is a somewhat similar situation to D&D's multiclassing. Order of the Stick had a really good take on that fairly early in its run... with a very pissed of Varsarius.

I see a difference : when the aeolian wizards start (adventuring) they know the runes/techniques AND some spells > 30% those are the standard wizards

you may create an adventurer knowing only the theory (runes and techniques) without any practical spells (well without a reasonable chance of success) but this one would certainly not be acclaimed wizard

 

but in all cases before allowing the first technique , I would request maybe one year to learn « philosophy » (any cult knowledge + read/write) 

of course finding something in some more magical plane (hero / logic / etc…) may « enlighten » the pc (not as a illuminate just oh I understand now)

[Soccercalle]

I hope that none of my players wants their PCs to learn sorcery until there is more printed information about sorcery and/or the Invisible God. I can "make up" a strong NPC sorcerer for a scenario but in reality we still only have two magic schools in RQG. Jeff has written somewhere that there will be such a production in the future. Including the Arkat cult. (Arkat will not be described in the upcoming Cults book as it needs Invisible God).

[Shiningbrow]

18 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I see a difference : when the aeolian wizards start (adventuring) they know the runes/techniques AND some spells > 30% those are the standard wizards

you may create an adventurer knowing only the theory (runes and techniques) without any practical spells (well without a reasonable chance of success) but this one would certainly not be acclaimed wizard

 

but in all cases before allowing the first technique , I would request maybe one year to learn « philosophy » (any cult knowledge + read/write) 

of course finding something in some more magical plane (hero / logic / etc…) may « enlighten » the pc (not as a illuminate just oh I understand now)

Your "maybe 1 year" doesn't gel with the idea that kids are taken at about 6 years old to be trained... and then at age 21 they have only 1-2 Runes and 1-2 Techniques, plus maybe 6 spells (especially given that you need the Runes & Techniques before you can learn the spells). Meaning, that 30% or so (or, maybe, higher) for your spells really only comes in the last 5 years or so... there's a good decade before that to train the mind to be able to Master those Rs & Ts.

One could even argue that if you try to learn sorcery from scratch at an older age, the mind has a harder time adapting (a not uncommon theme in fantasy texts... or to become a Jedi).

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Your "maybe 1 year" doesn't gel with the idea that kids are taken at about 6 years old to be trained... and then at age 21 they have only 1-2 Runes and 1-2 Techniques, plus maybe 6 spells (especially given that you need the Runes & Techniques before you can learn the spells). Meaning, that 30% or so (or, maybe, higher) for your spells really only comes in the last 5 years or so... there's a good decade before that to train the mind to be able to Master those Rs & Ts.

One could even argue that if you try to learn sorcery from scratch at an older age, the mind has a harder time adapting (a not uncommon theme in fantasy texts... or to become a Jedi).

my point is not to fit exactly with the background there but if you consider that your player can see her character being a sorcerer after 7 years (in game) you have only one acceptable choice : propose your table to not play these 7 years.

I'm not able to say a player "in 7 years (= 35 adventures ?) you will be able to cast one spell, now let's play the next season..." 😛

so i try to simulate the "waste of time to study" with one year (aka 5 adventures ?)

[Darius West]

On 11/20/2022 at 12:28 AM, Shiningbrow said:

So, it's bound to come up at some point, so how would you treat a player who wants to learn sorcery from the very basics? All sorcery currently presented presumes the character has been learning it for years.

And, it's fairly clear from the chapter on sorcery that it's a lot more than merely knowing a Technique and a Rune.

i was thinking of having a Sorcerous Potential skill, that needed to get to 100% before being able to actually use any sorcery (or even Master a Technique/Rune). But I think that won't really work too well...

Anyone have any good suggestions?

You don't need enormous skills.  You use meditation and sympathetic magic to boost your sorcery skill usage.  Sorcery is always time intensive, but it makes up for it with having potentially enormous durations.  You get your tick and you roll your up.

Edited November 22, 2022 by Darius West