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Thanatar and Krarsht in the Lunar Empire?


EricW

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18 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Why not just use mind control on the High Priest after teleporting up on the Bat, have the it eat the Lunar Army and then for good measure, possibly fly right up the Oslir River Valley, landing on Glamour, then kill the High Priest. Done.

I'm sure that mental contact with the lunatics who control the Crimson Bat is both easy and safe.

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On 11/26/2022 at 12:55 PM, EricW said:

How does that invalidate my point?

It only invalidates it insofar as if you want to pass as a non-chaotic, you can't do so.  You're chaos tainted.  Stormbulls might sense you.  Detect Chaos spells will find you out.  You will have big problems with the "any chaos= all chaos" lobby.

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18 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Any one we want. Dominate Human, Command Human, possession of the High Priest by a friendly Ancestor's spirit... so many possibilities. Remember this is a fantasy game?

In my opinion, if it was that simple to gain control of the Crimson Bat, a monstrous demon of Chaos, then it doesn't pass my fantasy credibility test (one of the reasons I like RQ/Glorantha and not D&D). 

That said, we know it can be done.  Broyan and his heroic companions did so at the Battle of Whitewall.  But by the "historical record" (YGMV) it wasn't achieved in 1602 nor in the Dorastor setting with Hahlgrim and Paulus.  

So, if you go back to the Crimson Bat's description in Cults of Terror, we can look at some features of the Bat itself that makes this challenging:

Item 8: The Bat will absorb all the battle magic cast or in effect within the Glowspot. Priests and Rune Lords of the Bat will be unaffected.  (Sorcery wasn't around back in RQ2, but would not surprise me if that was the case.)

Item 10: The Bat absorbs all magic, battle or Rune, cast at it.  (And I'm sure sorcery would fall within this.  Of course, you're thinking of targeting the high priest, not the bat, but between this and the item above, the Crimson Bat largely negates magic in its vicinity.)

Item 9: All discorporate or unbound spirits (except fetches) which come within the Glowspot will be absorbed instantly by the Bat.  (Possession by a friendly ancestor won't work - it has to discorporate to try to possess and in the process it's absorbed.)

Item 4: The Bat never can be surprised. (One might conclude that it anticipates your attack, so it attacks you either one of its tongues, or its eye spit, or simply its chaotic keening.)

As for the Rune Priests, they know Absorption, so would naturally use that to absorb your magic if they are in a fight with you.  They can cast Bat Wings, so they can fly away or around or above you.  And they can sacrifice for Mindblast to disable you. 

What you will need:  Rune Magic or Heroic abilities.  Probably that can be cast upon yourself.  Get on the bat's back (where hopefully the eye spit and tongues won't reach you, though the giant ticks will) and hopefully have a chance to kill the Rune Priests (if they're using Absorption, they probably can't use Shield at the same time).  

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4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Item 4: The Bat never can be surprised. (One might conclude that it anticipates your attack, so it attacks you either one of its tongues, or its eye spit, or simply its chaotic keening.)

So how did the Orlanthi get on its back? Possibly they were not attacking it but the priest rather and so the attacks couldn't be detected, they were not against it directly? I suppose most Orlanthi going onto the Bat's back had heroic powers.

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Item 9: All discorporate or unbound spirits (except fetches) which come within the Glowspot will be absorbed instantly by the Bat.  (Possession by a friendly ancestor won't work - it has to discorporate to try to possess and in the process it's absorbed.)

So bound spirits or allied spirits would be ok? What about a spirit bound into say an arrowhead that attacks what it strikes?

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7 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So how did the Orlanthi get on its back? Possibly they were not attacking it but the priest rather and so the attacks couldn't be detected, they were not against it directly? I suppose most Orlanthi going onto the Bat's back had heroic powers.

King of Sartar and the Guide do not say. I believe there wsa one text indicating they probably used a Guided Teleport (Rune Magic) or similar Orlanthi magic (e.g. using the winds). It was Broyan and his immediate companions, so all heroquesters.  Basically they killed the Bat priests which resulted in the bat going out of control and returning to its Otherworld home.  The bat doesn't return until 1625/6 at the Third Battle of Chaos.

8 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

So bound spirits or allied spirits would be ok?

As long as they have bodies, and you don't free them from those.

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13 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I believe there wsa one text indicating they probably used a Guided Teleport (Rune Magic) or similar Orlanthi magic (e.g. using the winds). It was Broyan and his immediate companions, so all heroquesters.

The newer write-up (RQG Glorantha Bestiary) adds that, thanks to its many eyes, it can never be surprised, as it can see all around, including in both the Spirit Plane and the Hero Plane.

Since Broyan and his friends are all heroquesters, as you say, they might have any kind of powerful gifts and magic abilities that aren't in the rules or even are rules breaking. You don't even need to do a dangerous heroquest that provides a "Get In The Crimson Bat's Blind Spot" ability. You just need to find a workaround. For instance, it says "the Bat can never be surprised" as in "it can't be ambushed"... So maybe your ability is a magical disguise. The Bat sees you teleporting or flying on its back, but it thinks "oh hey that's Bob, my worshipper who takes care of scratching that patch of itchy skin I've got near my left shoulder, nice of him to drop by". But then, boom!, Bob drives a magical blade through the bat's skull.

Edited by Lordabdul
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Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

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18 hours ago, jajagappa said:

they probably used a Guided Teleport (Rune Magic) or similar Orlanthi magic

A line of sight teleport. Guided teleport brings you to an Orlanth temple where you sacrificed, which I doubt you will find on the back of the Bat.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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On 2/1/2023 at 10:17 AM, jajagappa said:

In my opinion, if it was that simple to gain control of the Crimson Bat, a monstrous demon of Chaos, then it doesn't pass my fantasy credibility test (one of the reasons I like RQ/Glorantha and not D&D). 

That said, we know it can be done.  Broyan and his heroic companions did so at the Battle of Whitewall.  But by the "historical record" (YGMV) it wasn't achieved in 1602 nor in the Dorastor setting with Hahlgrim and Paulus.  

So, if you go back to the Crimson Bat's description in Cults of Terror, we can look at some features of the Bat itself that makes this challenging:

Item 8: The Bat will absorb all the battle magic cast or in effect within the Glowspot. Priests and Rune Lords of the Bat will be unaffected.  (Sorcery wasn't around back in RQ2, but would not surprise me if that was the case.)

Item 10: The Bat absorbs all magic, battle or Rune, cast at it.  (And I'm sure sorcery would fall within this.  Of course, you're thinking of targeting the high priest, not the bat, but between this and the item above, the Crimson Bat largely negates magic in its vicinity.)

Item 9: All discorporate or unbound spirits (except fetches) which come within the Glowspot will be absorbed instantly by the Bat.  (Possession by a friendly ancestor won't work - it has to discorporate to try to possess and in the process it's absorbed.)

Item 4: The Bat never can be surprised. (One might conclude that it anticipates your attack, so it attacks you either one of its tongues, or its eye spit, or simply its chaotic keening.)

As for the Rune Priests, they know Absorption, so would naturally use that to absorb your magic if they are in a fight with you.  They can cast Bat Wings, so they can fly away or around or above you.  And they can sacrifice for Mindblast to disable you. 

What you will need:  Rune Magic or Heroic abilities.  Probably that can be cast upon yourself.  Get on the bat's back (where hopefully the eye spit and tongues won't reach you, though the giant ticks will) and hopefully have a chance to kill the Rune Priests (if they're using Absorption, they probably can't use Shield at the same time).  

Doable - a 400pt +/- Trickster Swallow spell, enough for the bat, the fleas and the riders. The rune magic spell is cast on the trickster, so it doesn't get absorbed. The trickster probably has some substantial bonuses to hit something as big as the bat. And when swallowed, the bat passes out of the mortal world into whatever strange realm things swallowed by the trickster end up - difficult for even the Lunars to reach.

Now all the Trickster needs is to figure out how to get the power to sacrifice for such an enormous swallow spell.

Edited by EricW
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12 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

what happens to the Baby Bat's Allied Spirits' Bats when the Bat is banished from Glorantha for any period of time do the babies go with it?

When I am in my Happy Place™, if the Big Bat is banished, each of the Little Bats grows to the size of the banished Bat.

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NOTORIOUS VØID CULTIST

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8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Guided teleport brings you to an Orlanth temple where you sacrificed, which I doubt you will find on the back of the Bat.

Yeah, but if it works, instant insight into the true nature of the Big O. — and an illumination check. 😉

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NOTORIOUS VØID CULTIST

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7 hours ago, EricW said:

Now all the Trickster needs is to figure out how to get the power to sacrifice for such an enormous swallow spell.

Easy, have communal gathering make a matrix where everyone donates some power clan-wide or after becoming lay trickster members or place into a truestone (old game no limit). Sure you'll say it 400 - 1 point spells but if its done during a worship event why wouldn't the Trickster allow it as its for their own glory, "my dude ate the Bat!"

I'd say PC's can develop more game fun ideas none of us would. You can still go along with the story arcs but slightly modified, same as "who is your Agrath" idea. Its the best role playing game out there and has been for decades...

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11 hours ago, EricW said:

Doable - a 400pt +/- Trickster Swallow spell, enough for the bat, the fleas and the riders. The rune magic spell is cast on the trickster, so it doesn't get absorbed. The trickster probably has some substantial bonuses to hit something as big as the bat. And when swallowed, the bat passes out of the mortal world into whatever strange realm things swallowed by the trickster end up - difficult for even the Lunars to reach.

Of course the Bat might do a number on the insides of said Trickster.  Might be like the vacuum monster in the Yellow Submarine when he sucks up the entire landscape and then itself.  You end up in Nowhere Land.  But that's somewhere - and getting back from there ought to be interesting.

When the Trickster swallowed the PC's in my game to help them escape from a Lunar encampment where they were prisoners, they ended up in one of the borderlands of Hell and had to escape through the Fog of Illusion.

 

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4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Of course the Bat might do a number on the insides of said Trickster.  Might be like the vacuum monster in the Yellow Submarine when he sucks up the entire landscape and then itself.  You end up in Nowhere Land.  But that's somewhere - and getting back from there ought to be interesting.

When the Trickster swallowed the PC's in my game to help them escape from a Lunar encampment where they were prisoners, they ended up in one of the borderlands of Hell and had to escape through the Fog of Illusion.

 

Mythologically Trickster is good at swallowing chaos or anything else which annoys him. Of course, there would be consequences. The trickster would jump to the top of the most wanted list, loads of people would want to join trickster, and even the Orlanthi would be worried - I mean, even if you were a light bringer, would you really want a trickster who can swallow a small town anywhere near your place of residence?

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To my recollection, the Bat is a relatively strong but far from invincible unit when it's a cardboard wargaming chit. Ethilrist + the Hound stand a good chance of instantly killing the Bat off, for example, let alone massed missile fire + a substantial melee presence. You lose a unit, of course, to that pesky Chaotic magic but sending the Bat alone against the Lunar Empire doesn't end well for the chiropteran Hero. 

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Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being.

"I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010

Eight Arms and the Mask

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36 minutes ago, Eff said:

To my recollection, the Bat is a relatively strong but far from invincible unit when it's a cardboard wargaming chit. Ethilrist + the Hound stand a good chance of instantly killing the Bat off

I think in 1602, it was a True Dragon that drove off the bat, so clearly dragons have the ability to counter or ignore it (probably because they can reshape reality).

Interesting note on the Hound - presume this would be a Doom Run?  (I.e. Ethilrist will lose the Hound for some period of time until he can regain it - so this is going to come with a high price tag for his services.)

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30 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I think in 1602, it was a True Dragon that drove off the bat, so clearly dragons have the ability to counter or ignore it (probably because they can reshape reality).

Interesting note on the Hound - presume this would be a Doom Run?  (I.e. Ethilrist will lose the Hound for some period of time until he can regain it - so this is going to come with a high price tag for his services.)

I mean, yes, the Dragonfight rules allow for a flawless defeat of the Bat, assuming the Bat doesn't make its Heroic Escape roll. Same thing for the Doom Run, which is what I was thinking of as "guy and his dog versus giant monster bat" for the smallest quantity of people that could no-sell the Bat. 

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Though a Lunar through and through, she is also a human being.

"I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010

Eight Arms and the Mask

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1 hour ago, Eff said:

I mean, yes, the Dragonfight rules allow for a flawless defeat of the Bat, assuming the Bat doesn't make its Heroic Escape roll. Same thing for the Doom Run, which is what I was thinking of as "guy and his dog versus giant monster bat" for the smallest quantity of people that could no-sell the Bat. 

Under the Corbett rules for Dragon Pass, the minimum combat strength to guarantee to splat the solitary Bat is 24 after suffering one loss from Chaotic Magic. Ethilrist on the Hound is only 16 (Ethilrist 4, Hound 10+2) which succeeds on a roll of 2 or better on a D6. If you use an Exotic power, the exotics happen before any Chaos magic. That includes the Assassins.

The Bat doesn't get a heroic escape.

All dragonfights eliminate the dragon from that game - the dragon fights, probably eats, goes back to sleep, and no wakey wakey thank you - once was enough.

 

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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Related to Thanatar: silver tarnishes if touched by Thanatar cultists or vampires or who? How fast does it tarnish and could this be a test of being chaotic if it happens over a day or two?

Say the PC's find a nice suit of silver armor (clip below from Sun County) and they love the idea that it shouldn't be worn in decent company... it always opens doors to casual conversation in taverns/inns, makes me think of Geigerian landscaps... many of which are very graphic compared to the clip posted below...

How does one clean the tarnished armor and does anyone in the Empire care if its tarnished? What poor persons would no its not just dirty armor? (sorry if this should be another thread but I thought it fit here) If you couldn't clean it black armor looks sort of cool anyway right?

Lunars wearing tarnished silver armor in Sartar would be assumed to be typical chaotic Lunars anyway wouldn't they? You'd need to get close to make out the stylized graphicness of the detail on the tarnished armor. Sounds like the makings of a Lunar love ballad.

 image.png.c6847031cd76294644a1d0453d8a6463.png image.png

Edited by Erol of Backford
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