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How to Prevent Resurrection?


Jex

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If the assassin is serious, they're going to want to kill the soul of their victim. There are multiple ways to do this; frex a sorcerer summons the target's ghost within the Crimson Bat's Glowspot.

Reducing any stat to zero will prevent resurrection. Since characteristics decay while dead, Tapping a targets CON down to 1 is an efficient way to soften them up for a killing stroke and means you only have a day to resurrect them before they are beyond help.

 

But, the easy way - available to any PC, I'll point out - is to hit the target with Spirit Block, backed by Extension, before killing them. This both makes it easier to kill them (since they can no longer be targeted with Shield etc) but means that anyone trying to resurrect them is going to find making them lose magic points hard.

 

The fun way is to have the local Eurmalite tell everyone that the murderer is a local stray cat!

Edited by whitelaughter
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2 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

But, the easy way - available to any PC, I'll point out - is to hit the target with Spirit Block, backed by Extension, before killing them. This both makes it easier to kill them (since they can no longer be targeted with Shield etc) but means that anyone trying to resurrect them is going to find making them lose magic points hard.

While this kinda works, if you’re already doing resurrection, finding someone to Dismiss that Spirit Block shouldn’t be too hard.

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On 11/28/2022 at 6:58 AM, Jex said:

there is a priestess of Chalana Arroy in the village where the adventure takes place
...
I know resurrection requires the spirit of the deceased to be defeated in spirit combat.

Another way to do it : Do not follow the "Rune spell description" which is available to player but what is know about Resurrection by the Priestess.

What I mean is :  To do the very first ressurection, Chalana Arroy need to go to hell, find the spirit of the dead and have Orlanth (the murderer) be presented before Yelm (the victim) then after they need to convice Yelm to go back with the living (spirit combat).

For a Chalana Arroy priestess a resurrection may need/ask for some peculiars extra conditions :

  1. CHALANA ARROY accepting the Resurrection (If the body is poisoned, she may refuse as the victim may die again : go find and cure the poison first😉. Using Divination before using resurrection is mandatory for all my priest(ess) as the goddess may refuse before hand)
  2. The murderer, like Orlanth, need to be presented to the victim (Alive or not); If not the spirit combat will be harder +5/+10
  3. Someone who participate to the ritual need to convince the victim to go back to the living world (I personally choose a player with a Risk-to-lose-POW as Damocles's sword if they failed 'cause you don't play with the soul of a victim at no risk. Also a victim afraid to be killed again may be harder to deal with +5/+10 to the victim pow)
  4. The body + head need to be the good one, almost intact or healed before hand (a counterspell present may hinder the ritual as well as Eurmal's benediction or any gods/spirits malediction. idem for a shard of TrueStone with such magic).

Even If your player know about the spell, in Glorantha, their characters don't !!! a Priestess of Chalana Arroy is the one with the last word about how resurrection may work or why it may fail ! You need first to negotiate with her spending a 3 POW / SEASONS-Worth-of-BLESSING spell 💰💰💰.

Resurrection also is know to have sides effects : Memory lost (who did kill me anyway ?), Absolute rejection of death or the opposite Absolute fascination of it (Like a I will become a Humakti in glory of Lady DEATH).

These are the ways I use to prevent Abusing the gift of resurrection... Lankhor Mhy spells are much more effective in that aspect.

Edited by MJ Sadique
some tiny mistake and mispelling :p
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On 11/28/2022 at 5:58 AM, Jex said:

So, part of a RuneQuest adventure I'm working on involves the adventurers investigating who's behind a string of murders, and it just belatedly occurred to me that the availability of resurrection may be a problem.  I know not everyone who dies is resurrected, obviously—Roleplaying in Glorantha does say that "Given the small size of the cult of Chalana Arroy, only a few people are ever resurrected"—but (a) it just happens that there is a priestess of Chalana Arroy in the village where the adventure takes place, and (b) I'd think that maybe if the authorities wanted to find out who's behind a murder spree they might consider it worth it to arrange for one of the victims to be resurrected so they can ask them who killed them.  Needless to say, if that happened, that might throw a bit of a monkey wrench in the scenario.

In our RQ2 game, we made Resurrection cost 10,000L, the equivalent of 1,000L in RQG.  I would probably say, instead, that in my games, Resurrection costs the same as a Ransom. Not everyone has that kind of money and cannot be Resurrected. 

On 11/28/2022 at 5:58 AM, Jex said:

There is specifically a Stop Resurrection spell listed in the Red Book of Magic, but it's (a) a one-use spell, which isn't really a problem for the scenario (the murderer actually could be willing to permanently sacrifice his POW to make the victims stay dead), and (b) available only to Swords of Humakt, which is a problem (the murderer is, as it happens, an initiate of Humakt (or maybe sorta an ex-Humakti; it's complicated)—but he's only an initiate, not a Sword of Humakt, and I don't think there's any feasible way he could get his hands on that spell).

Unless he gained it some other way, perhaps on a HeroQuest.

That makes him a formidable assassin.

On 11/28/2022 at 5:58 AM, Jex said:

The Resurrect spell description says the body must be healed to 3 hit points, so I'd guess there's no resurrection if the body is missing, but unfortunately it's kind of necessary for the adventure for the bodies to be found.  If the head of the corpse is missing, would that prevent resurrection?  The description of the Resurrection spell doesn't say so, but it seems like it might be reasonable.  I could have the murderer remove his victim's heads and stash them somewhere.

I guess as a last resort, I could say that the poison used in the murders has a special property of preventing resurrection, but eh, that seems like an ugly kludge; I'm hoping for a more elegant way...

Chop the head, off, burn the heart, mutilate the body in some way, cut it into 49 bits and hide them (That might not work in your game).

Or, as Nick says, come up with a reason why the Chalana Arroy cultists don't Resurrect the dead people. Perhaps they harmed a Chalana Arroy Priestess, so the cult banned then from healing them.

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On 11/28/2022 at 4:58 PM, Jex said:

I guess as a last resort, I could say that the poison used in the murders has a special property of preventing resurrection, but eh, that seems like an ugly kludge; I'm hoping for a more elegant way...

If Chalana Arroys are a major established feature of your settlement or obviously nearby in a temple a day's ride away, you should start the scenario by mentioning that this Season the clan had a major epidemic or battle, and the Chalana Arroys have used all their Rune Power healing people.

The next way to handle it is to have time elapse before the body is discovered.  You only have 7 days to Ressurrect before the damage to stats is too terrible and the character is dead.

The next way is to simply have no characters with resurrect present.

Heh, the real problem is why nobody is using Divination...  And the answer is that the gods can't see thru a mask any more than characters can.

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1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Heh, the real problem is why nobody is using Divination...  And the answer is that the gods can't see thru a mask any more than characters can.

In the HQ era, a big deal was made of the notion that gods can't really see the actions of individuals, so they have to punish whole communities for the sins of individuals and the people on the ground have to catch the specific offender. I don't think this suggestion remains in RQG, though. 

Edited by Akhôrahil
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14 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

In the HQ era, a big deal was made of the notion that gods can't really see the actions of individuals, so they have to punish whole communities for the sins of individuals and the people on the ground have to catch the specific offender. I don't think this suggestion remains in RQG, though. 

I didn't know that piece of lore (not thinking much of HQ in general).  I don't dislike the idea at all.  It's pretty good.

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19 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

In the HQ era, a big deal was made of the notion that gods can't really see the actions of individuals, so they have to punish whole communities for the sins of individuals and the people on the ground have to catch the specific offender. I don't think this suggestion remains in RQG, though. 

It is a lot of things in HQ that I incorporated in my RQ capaign back then, and that I will keep in my potential future campaign. This is one of them, it solves many magical short-circuits of classical plots, or at least change them in exciting ways.

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IMG, the Vadeli know how to make special weapons that will bind your spirit into them if they are touching you when you die (usually because you've been stabbed with them), known as Telendarian weapons (usually daggers, occasionally swords, the Vadeli could probably create lances and other things if they wanted to), thus preventing Resurrection (and Speak with Dead, Summon Ancestor, etc) until they choose to release the spirit. hey are thus great assassins weapons if you want to ensure someone isn't resurrected, or even worse nefarious purposes like making them your spiritual slave. Vadeli, being utterly devoid of morals, often cast Tap POW to destroy any such captured soul. These weapons are known to the sort of people who might want to know about them. The Vadeli may even sell such weapons for a price, certainly lend them out at least. 

(yes, they are somewhat inspired by Morganti weapons in the Vlad Taltos series)

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On 11/28/2022 at 4:58 PM, Jex said:

but (a) it just happens that there is a priestess of Chalana Arroy in the village where the adventure takes place

Here's the thing about CA priestesses - everyday life in bronze age Glorantha is perilous, and your local healer's time, skills, resources, and especially rune points are going to be constantly called upon by members of the community in need. So even if the healer was willing to perform the resurrection spell, there's a likelihood they can't, simply because they've tapped out their rune points for the time being. I wonder if any CA healers ever make it to the end of the season with rune points to spare. 

Edited by MOB
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12 minutes ago, MOB said:

Here's the thing about CA priestesses - everyday life in bronze age Glorantha is perilous, and your local healer's time, skills, resources, and especially rune points are going to be constantly called upon by members of the community in need. So even if the healer was willing to perform the resurrection spell, there's a likelihood they can't, simply because they've tapped out their rune points for the time being. I wonder if any CA healers ever make it to the end of the season with rune points to spare. 

On the other hand if tbe Healer has the sense to attend associated cult worship, and has a good Worship skill,  there are many opportunities to regain rune points.  Ernalda has minor services weekly.  

So IMHO your CA should only be tapped out in case of war - well maybe a big raid -or plague, or when on an adventure away from friendly settled areas.  Or. Of course. bad dice luck.  

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So IMHO your CA should only be tapped out in case of war - well maybe a big raid -or plague, or when on an adventure away from friendly settled areas. 

Chalana Arroy Healer: For me, it was Clayday.

395695926_CAHealer.png.418404609ba74911cd4e77ad97b9a528.png

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This is mechanistic, extrapolating the world from the rules, which is not recommended, but in this case I think it represents quite well the magic economy of RPs.

To regain RPs at an associate you need a seasonal or high holy day, and I would only allow it either if the associate is in the CA temple, or CA is present as an associate in the other deity's temple. CA apparently does not have minor holy days, and I do not expect them to have enough full time initiates for such a luxury. Otherwise you could have Yelmites or Storm Bullers flocking at CA temples for the seasonal holy day, and I do not think that happens except in a few temples as they will be bored to tears by the typical CA ceremonies. 

A priestess at a Great CA temple may well recover 7x1D6+1 (associates) + a full RP renewal each season, but a priestess in a normal orlanthi clan (so CA is not the associate in either Orlanth's or Ernalda's Major Temples) running a minor temple will just get one replenishment a season. It may well be worth a short pilgrimage to a bigger temple for an extra 1d6+1 RP, but that is time coming out of the scarce 10% free time. Having CA as an associate in one of the temples would give an extra 1d6+1 RP per season.

I expect a CA priestess tries to keep 3 RP for a critical Heal Body or Ressurrection, but it will be almost always used up before the next holy day for sure (just a bout of flu and they will all be gone casting Restore Health or summoning Healing Spirits), so the only other option is to go for an associate holy day in a nearby temple. If the dates, and the dice are friendly, it may be a matter of a few days. Or it may be weeks.

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Just to repeat what Nick already said - Resurrection is there to make it possible for players to revive their beloved characters after getting killed in combat, for the GM to revive favoured NPCs after something bad happened to them, and to be something the players need to work for to receive. Don't use it for investigations or "because the authorities might find it useful".

Also keep in mind of the magical economics of the setting. Assume the average priest has 10 Rune Points - that's going to be spent quickly each season to cure diseases, regrow limbs, and so on. Is she really going to reserve 3 rune points in case someone should be Resurrected instead of spending those 3 to save three people from death?

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4 hours ago, JRE said:

To regain RPs at an associate you need a seasonal or high holy day, and I would only allow it either if the associate is in the CA temple, or CA is present as an associate in the other deity's temple.

In our campaign, it has been an interesting plot device to travel to other temples, located in other clans or tribes to recover rune points on their seasonal holy days.  Makes you more aware of the calendar and seasons.  And some fun role playing too.  My Vinga worshipper once attended a Eurmal holy day, and hopes to never have to do that again!

It's one of the great mythical strengths of the Lightbringers that they have so many associates from whom to regain rune points.  And one of the main drawbacks of Humakt.

As for CA specifically, I would expect them to travel a lot to regain rune points at associate cults, cause each time they gain, on the average, one Resurrection, or 3.5 points of other very useful and specialized magic.

If we take the estimate of @Jeff that an average priest has 10 rune points, wise use of associated cults could pretty easily let them regain 6*3.5 = 21 additional rune points per season, tripling their effectiveness from 10 to 31.

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If your players routinely mutilate corpses as if any one of them could be Dracula, "eww."

Some players have had bad experiences with previous game masters, which lead them to take absurd measures to avoid any form of cooperation with the "enemy." ("Unless we specify that we first feed every enemy corpse through Bob's Bison-burger machine and then dissolve the mince in our off-books vat of Gorp, our GM might... I dunno... do something both entertaining and reasonable to move their campaign forwards: they're forcing us to behave like psychopaths! Incidentally, did I ever tell you how my character killed all his family and friends before the game began, so as not to provide any plot hooks for the guy running it? Good times.")

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For the record, now that I've finished writing the adventure (though I haven't finished editing and illustrating it and laying it out, so it's not up on the Jonstown Compendium yet), I can say how I ended up handling this issue in it.

I didn't want to overcomplicate things by having the murderer have special powers from Hero Quests or take extraordinary means to prevent resurrection.  He's motivated to do what he can to make the victims to stay dead, but he's limited in what he can do—this is an adventure for beginning adventurers, and the murderer isn't an extraordinarily powerful character.  So he's just been cutting off the murder victims' heads and stashing them somewhere.  (Which of course could lead to a fun red herring about suspected Thanatari involvement.)  It is possible for the PCs to find the heads and bring them back, though of course that doesn't mean they'll necessarily be resurrected.  (One of the murder victims was a Wind Lord of Orlanth, though, so he may be important enough to be worth bringing back if possible.)

As for speaking with their spirits, given that the most recent edition seems to imply that the spirits set off immediately on their journey to the Underworld, even if other editions said differently I figured there was enough wiggle room to say that not all spirits stuck by their bodies.  So... of the two murder victims who were killed before the adventure begins, one of them is still around as a ghost and is indeed still hanging around near his body, and if the adventurers include a shaman or someone else who can communicate with spirits (or if they enlist the aid of an NPC shaman), they can talk to him.  Unfortunately, he was attacked from behind and didn't see his murderer, but he can still give the adventurers some useful clues.  The spirit of the other murder victim is already on its way to the Underworld; it's possible to find him in the Spirit World (as long as the adventurers haven't taken too long and seven days haven't passed!), but it won't be easy.  If the adventurers do find him, though, he can tell them exactly who killed him.

These aren't the only ways to identify the murderer; there are other clues the adventurers can follow up on as well.  I want to reiterate, though, that the murder investigation is not the main plot of the adventure.  It's a significant subplot and possible initiating event, but there's more to the adventure after the murderer is stopped.  So even if the adventurers do solve the murder mystery relatively quickly, it doesn't cause a huge problem for the scenario.

Thanks to everyone who posted here for your comments and ideas.

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On 12/9/2022 at 1:17 AM, JRE said:

To regain RPs at an associate you need a seasonal or high holy day, and I would only allow it either if the associate is in the CA temple, or CA is present as an associate in the other deity's temple.

Nuh. The other cults are specifically written as going out of their way to help CA, and everybody goes to CA temples for healing. The first thing the CA cult is going to want is for you to ensure that they can recover RPs on your holy days. With 7 associated cults, 2 of whom can change their holy days to be more convenient, the healers are going to be getting more RPs from allied gods then from CA herself.

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Apologies for lateness...

@Darius West mentioned it very briefly, but I'll expand upon it.

The solution was extremely simple - the priestess hasn't learned the spell! End of story. End of that problem!!

To be a priest/ess, one requires only 5 Rune Points. Each RP is going to grant 1 specialised spell. CA cultists have: Comfort Song, Cure All Disease, Cure Chaos Wound, Cure Poison, Harmony, Heal Body,Healing Trance, Regrow Limb, Restore Health, Resurrect, Summon Cult Spirit (Healing Spirit).

They also get, from asscoiated cults, wonderful spells such as Bless Pregnancy, and Fight Disease.

While Resurrect is obviously a very good spell, I'm not so sure that it's going to be gained terribly quickly... and besides, you need to have at least 3RPs in order to learn it anyway, so it most definitely can't be one of the first 2.

So, I'd presume that those I've bolded above in the list would be more likely in her repertoire than a Resurrect, with a couple of the others possibly also having priority.

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On 12/14/2022 at 1:54 PM, Jex said:

As for speaking with their spirits, given that the most recent edition seems to imply that the spirits set off immediately on their journey to the Underworld, even if other editions said differently I figured there was enough wiggle room to say that not all spirits stuck by their bodies.

Possibly, but...

There's an officially published scenario in which this is part of the plot point - there's a murdered person and one can talk to their spirit days later, because they it hangs around for a week.

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