Lunar Retribution

[French Desperate WindChild]

54 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Well, if we have given up on hearts and minds, it may not matter whether we arrest the “right” person:

• if it is for the encouragement of the others, just kill arrest someone popular
• if it is to prevent future outrages, murder out of hand take into custody someone dangerous

Revenge and justice might require you to find the guilty party, but one is a barbarian concern and the other is for when we are in friendly territory.

that is a key point, the "reality" (img) is, if the dead lunars are not important, it is not important to punish the true murderers, the local lunar authority has just to find some scapegoats. No need of divination, no need of investigation, just enough to put a report, closed case.

[Eff]

1 hour ago, EricW said:

Even more hilarious if the copper arrests everyone who looks suspicious in rebel infested areas. Because everyone does look suspicious. They’re all barbarians.

Or if a patrol includes a psycho - “let’s kill them anyway”.

How many times have you looked and not been sure they are someone you know or have heard of? It’s this fringe of doubt the lie would act on.

I’m sure Lunars could work out a system, like putting deaf people in charge who can’t hear the lie, putting stupid people in charge who don’t understand the lie, a series of interlocking lookouts who can rush out and persuade soldiers at checkpoints they’ve been lied to. Or Yansfil cultists maintaining continuous “detect honour” spells at all checkpoints.

All hilariously consequential - especially in the trickster has multiple uses of “lie”.

What exactly is the point of all this when you could just tell a player "No you didn't" whenever they attempt to use the Lie spell, and then if or when they object, informing the players that sudden blowdarts from undetectable Lunar super ninjas have killed them all with ultra poison? The end result is the same, and it's much quicker, gets the point across easier, and the only reason I could think of to go through this whole process of "you thought you could use this option that exists within the rules to affect this situation? Think again!" would be sadistic intent against the players. 

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, EricW said:

Even more hilarious if the copper arrests everyone who looks suspicious in rebel infested areas. Because everyone does look suspicious. They’re all barbarians.

 

HEY!!!! Watch that kind of talk, buster!

 

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

To avoid further thread hi-jacking — mea culpa — people can get it out of their systems with this simple one-question poll. If anybody cares, maybe an RQ thread, but enough of this here, I think. Sorry again.

Not so off topic, you are a little stubborn but a Eurmali lie spells falls well within the aegis of avoiding the named topic..."Lunar Retribution". So, I think you are on topic if a bit stiff necked... :0

Cheers

 

1 hour ago, Eff said:

What exactly is the point of all this when you could just tell a player "No you didn't" whenever they attempt to use the Lie spell, and then if or when they object, informing the players that sudden blowdarts from undetectable Lunar super ninjas have killed them all with ultra poison? The end result is the same, and it's much quicker, gets the point across easier, and the only reason I could think of to go through this whole process of "you thought you could use this option that exists within the rules to affect this situation? Think again!" would be sadistic intent against the players. 

Yep, what she said!

Edited December 5, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Erol of Backford]

6 hours ago, Eff said:

Did the PCs know the people they killed socially? If not, interrogating their ghosts or Resurrecting them probably gets a vague description, likely to be distorted and inaccurate.

I like this approach otherwise a Divination and the like would be Uber powerful? What about Reconstruction, a video recording of thugs assaulting grandma on a bright day with no mask or hat to hide their faces.

Do PC's/NPC's lose memory once killed and resurrected?

[French Desperate WindChild]

9 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Do PC's/NPC's lose memory once killed and resurrected?

seems not, but they lost some "part" of themselves, so it may be part of memory but more probably passions, tastes (less tastes than before), etc...

imagine they may have seen something different (better "oh the peaceful light !", or worst too cold, too high, too sunny too dark). I would not play any ressurected as someone happy to be here (maybe ok to finish some mission, but at the end, at least melancolia)

[Erol of Backford]

15 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I would not play any resurrected as someone happy to be here (maybe ok to finish some mission, but at the end, at least melancholia)

Why would it be different for NPC's than PC's? Wasn't there an NPC who lives near Apple Lane who was resurrected 3 times or wait maybe twice? There are no notes that he is gloomy or like a sad puppy?

I suppose no matter the emotion the killers would need to lop off the heads and or burn the bodies so the evil vile Lunars could not track them down?

Do the Lunars know the spell Reconstruction?

[JRE]

I think there are two factors here, religious and social. I play that the normal Orlanthi response to killing a Lunar file outside a military campaign would be to tell everyone, declare yourselves outlaws, and hide or go away. You do it that way so the Lunars do not have an excuse to go after your clan or your family (though some harassing will be expected) and to show that it was not secret murder. That would allow you to keep a good status with Orlanth and keep social support, even if you will be outlawed to protect your clan and family.

Strangers who do so in secret will be hunted by the local Orlanthi clans to make sure they are not the target of any Lunar retribution. Not doing so will bring heavy handed measures, such as crucifying the headman / chieftain, depending on the importance of the Lunars killed, and sending a bunch of people away as hostages or slaves. There will be differences between Tarshite troops, who understand the clan workings and probably will work with the locals to hunt the outlaws, and Heartland troops, that may more easily use terror tactics or Irripi Ontor Crime Scene Analysts, depending on the commanding officer. That is also a good excuse to send any promising youth to Furthest or Mirin Cross to receive a proper education...

Then the game can continue as anti-lunar brigands officially outlawed (at least till the occupation is over) but helped in secret, but at risk of betrayal as the bounty gets higher, or exiles starting again where nobody knows you and what you did. Pavis is quite popular among Orlanthi, even if it is Lunar controlled, as information will arrive slowly and will be incomplete unless you did something very, very bad.

[French Desperate WindChild]

11 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Why would it be different for NPC's than PC's?

I don't make any difference between NPC and PC (except I don't play the pc if I m GM, and I don't play other PC and NPC if I'm player 😛 )

11 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Wasn't there an NPC who lives near Apple Lane who was resurrected 3 times or wait maybe twice? There are no notes that he is gloomy or like a sad puppy?

I base my "play" on two points :

- my personal opininon, death is trauma, even in glorantha, and death is tranformation, so loss and sometimes gain

- there is a npc in, I believe, a previous publication (red cow ? ..) , who was an orlanthi chief and was resurrected. And he is described with some changes because his experience. (unfortunately, i don't remember who and where exactly, I tried a search but there is too many pages for my little brain !  )

 

but in all cases, it is my personal taste, I don't say canon or not, and depending on what your table like and what may bore them, a lot of opinions may diverge 🙂

 

 

[Erol of Backford]

I like what you are saying and the old "system shock versus constitution" to see how your body "ages" after passing through so much stress.

It is a magical world but it does make one wonder is the Leader of the Black Horse Troop actually dead to have moved back-forth through Hell and the Prime Material Plane (Whatever Gloranthians call it?)

Anyway the idea here was how to prevent Lunar Retribution and by killing and destroying the body/bodies the use of resurrection to interview the victim(s) would be very low.

I do want to ask what if a descendant of the victim were to do Ancestral Worship could they not summon that/those specific spirits and interview them?

[EricW]

On 12/6/2022 at 7:04 AM, Eff said:

What exactly is the point of all this when you could just tell a player "No you didn't" whenever they attempt to use the Lie spell, and then if or when they object, informing the players that sudden blowdarts from undetectable Lunar super ninjas have killed them all with ultra poison? The end result is the same, and it's much quicker, gets the point across easier, and the only reason I could think of to go through this whole process of "you thought you could use this option that exists within the rules to affect this situation? Think again!" would be sadistic intent against the players. 

Sure, have some mercy. Like if the Lunars are so incensed they're waiting just inside the gate to kill any barbarian who vaguely fits the description, the party could meet someone who somehow escaped the kill squad who could warn them.

I doubt the Lunars would do anything like this, unless they were truly desperate, if the PCs became so powerful they were starting to threaten the Lunar occupation. Otherwise, the Lunar authorities would be complacently confident that sooner or later the bounty hunters will find the rebel scum, so no sense getting all emotional about it. If the PC party does something especially outrageous, just increase the bounty, and increase the scariness of the Lunar bounty hunters. The PCs will quickly discover they shouldn't stay in one spot too long, which makes it easier to ease them into new adventures. 

[Bill the barbarian]

18 hours ago, JRE said:

I think there are two factors here, religious and social.

<sssnnnniiiiippppp>

This is quite good. Nuanced.

 

5 minutes ago, EricW said:

I doubt the Lunars would do anything like this, unless they were truly desperate, if the PCs became so powerful they were starting to threaten the Lunar occupation. Otherwise, the Lunar authorities would be complacently confident that sooner or later the bounty hunters will find the rebel scum, so no sense getting all emotional about it. If the PC party does something especially outrageous, just increase the bounty, and increase the scariness of the Lunar bounty hunters. The PCs will quickly discover they shouldn't stay in one spot too long, which makes it easier to ease them into new adventures. 

Yep

 

Edited December 8, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Nick Brooke]

One thing to bear in mind: Drew points out in Six Seasons in Sartar that (like most Empires) the Lunars commonly lean on local allies to get things done. You killed a bunch of Provincial conscripts? The Governor-General will task the King of a friendly local tribe (and his army) with sorting you out. "Lunar retribution" doesn't necessarily mean that any Lunar troops or magics are involved: King Kangharl and his trusty Colymar warband can ruin your whole day.

If you're hiding out on the territory of a hostile tribe, the Lunars and their allies will lean on that tribe to get them to surrender you to imperial justice. At which point you'll start coming under the same pressure from your hosts that you would if they were your kin, except they most likely feel less of an obligation to keep you safe, now that it's their kin who are suffering for your actions.

[JRE]

If your game really goes with Irripi Ontor CSI, Red stormtroopers everywhere and Blue moon death squads hunting rebels in secret, go for it. It sounds fun but too stressful for me. My taste in movies and RPG has changed with the years.

[Nick Brooke]

It's probably a learning point. It's well-known that in Greg Stafford's own campaign, Starbrow's doomed rebellion kicked off prematurely (and got crushed) when his players got cocky and thought fragging occupation forces was a fun sport with no downside. (Just as the genocidal Duck Hunt happened because of anti-Duck players indulging in casual racism around Greg's table)

If your players aren't teachable, it's up to you what you do when they prat around in your game. I don't think the answer is to let them think Tricksters can be relied on (Eurmal famously betrayed Orlanth in the Underworld, and Greg always said that half the time his tricks blew up in his face), or that they should always desecrate enemy corpses in specific ritual ways, because that will screw them up and make your game world an unpleasant place for anyone to inhabit.

"Relife Sickness," which @French Desperate WindChild alludes to above, was introduced in the Hero Wars book Storm Tribe:

Quote

Many people who return have the Relife Sickness. They are alive but listless, some part of them perhaps remaining dead after all. Many join Humakt, even if they had no inclination to do so before. Devotees who know the secret of their god are sustained by their experiences, and rarely have this problem. Persons raised by the Sisters have less Relife Sickness than those resurrected by other means. The famous rebel hero Asborn Fourborn was widely acclaimed because he did not suffer from the Relife Sickness despite being resurrected several times.

 (I have a theory that Arkat is the first recorded victim of Relife Sickness: he was brought back from the dead by Harmast's quest, then converted to Humakt)

[Jeff]

6 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

One thing to bear in mind: Drew points out in Six Seasons in Sartar that (like most Empires) the Lunars commonly lean on local allies to get things done. You killed a bunch of Provincial conscripts? The Governor-General will task the King of a friendly local tribe (and his army) with sorting you out. "Lunar retribution" doesn't necessarily mean that any Lunar troops or magics are involved: King Kangharl and his trusty Colymar warband can ruin your whole day.

If you're hiding out on the territory of a hostile tribe, the Lunars and their allies will lean on that tribe to get them to surrender you to imperial justice. At which point you'll start coming under the same pressure from your hosts that you would if they were your kin, except they most likely feel less of an obligation to keep you safe, now that it's their kin who are suffering for your actions.

A little more to add to this -

The Lunar Empire is not all powerful or all knowing. So let's imagine things circa 1622-1625, back when there was a Lunar Occupation. We have a governor-general (really a satrap) in charge of things. That's Tatius the Bright. If you want to travel another two weeks, you can appeal to the Provincial Overseer in Mirin's Cross.

Tatius is kind of focused on the war in the Holy Country and the consecration of the Temple of the Reaching Moon, and most Lunar resources have been committed to these two projects, as these will cement his legacy and that of the Assiday family. If he hears that some Provincial officer got killed along with his militia-followers, he's going to demand that his local allies deal with the situation rather than waste his time. Only if your actions threaten the war in the Holy Country or his temple-building project (or threaten key foundations of either - such as liberating one of the cities of Sartar) is he going to throw his own resources into the fray.

After the Battle of Auroch Hills, many tribes are effectively autonomous, as Tatius needs to focus everything he can on the war in the Holy Country. But these tribal "rebellions" are little more than large-scale banditry. The next year, Tatius sends the Lunar Army to besiege Nochet, and if that falls, who cares about pin-pricks from the Culbrea tribe? 

1624 is a nightmare year. The Lunar Army is routed in Esrolia and has to retreat a couple of hundred kilometres through Esrolia and Beast Valley to get back to Sartar. I wouldn't be surprised if detachments of the Lunar Army takes out their humiliations on any rebels it can, especially near the Royal Roads. But things are certainly getting tight from the Lunar perspective - and now Tatius is acting directly. King Broyan is killed near the Troll Woods in 1625, and a Praxian Army is defeated by the Lunar College of Magic (and its Chaotic allies) at Hender's Ruins shortly thereafter. But by Earth Season, Tatius is finally ready to deploy his masterstroke - the consecration of the Temple of the Reaching Moon, which will extend the Glowline over Dragon Pass and the Holy Country (and much of Prax). The massive magical energies of this location will be harnessed and Dragon Pass quickly pacified.

Of course things don't quite go as expected.

[Erol of Backford]

6 hours ago, Jeff said:

Tatius is kind of focused on the war in the Holy Country and the consecration of the Temple of the Reaching Moon, and most Lunar resources have been committed to these two projects, as these will cement his legacy and that of the Assiday family.

I guess the key is getting Tatius upset isn't it? If he is focused per Mr. Riachard's comments and you distract him and kill someone he needs/cares about then likely he'd send a company or two to find an eliminate you.

I suppose if the PC's were to somehow kill Erianda they had better evacuate all of Apple Lane and its inhabitants?

If Erianda were killed, Tatius the Bright would inflict terrible reprisals on the killers and on the Sartarites in general.

[Erol of Backford]

Also, I suppose the Lunars could be harassed as they are retreating Esrolia not unlike the French as they withdrew from Russia in the winter, may stragglers killed? The bandits would be more like partisans living on the edge of the Lunar ZOC?

[Jeff]

17 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Also, I suppose the Lunars could be harassed as they are retreating Esrolia not unlike the French as they withdrew from Russia in the winter, may stragglers killed? The bandits would be more like partisans living on the edge of the Lunar ZOC?

Well the distance is MUCH shorter - it's about 180 km from Pennel Ford to Sun County (where units might be able to expect safety). compared to the 1000 km retreat of the Grande Army.

Also the weather was quite a bit better - the Battle of Pennel Ford was in Fire Season, and much of that retreat was through rich and densely populated Esrolia. But the retreating Lunars were no doubt harassed, just as the Ten Thousand were harassed on their retreat from Cunaxa.  

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Well the distance is MUCH shorter - it's about 180 km from Pennel Ford to Sun County (where units might be able to expect safety). compared to the 1000 km retreat of the Grande Army.

Also the weather was quite a bit better - the Battle of Pennel Ford was in Fire Season, and much of that retreat was through rich and densely populated Esrolia. But the retreating Lunars were no doubt harassed, just as the Ten Thousand were harassed on their retreat from Cunaxa.  

Elphinstone's retreat from Kabul is another source of possible ideas.

[Erol of Backford]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

Well the distance is MUCH shorter - it's about 180 km from Pennel Ford to Sun County (where units might be able to expect safety). compared to the 1000 km retreat of the Grande Army.

Good point, major items, season and distance as well as whatever partisans may play into this!

[Professor Chaos]

On 12/10/2022 at 4:35 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Good point, major items, season and distance as well as whatever partisans may play into this!

So just a 180 km or at most a week's march through some of the most fertile land on Glorantha - which has little in common with Napoleon's retreat from Moscow or for that matter Xenophon's anabasis after Cunaxa.

[Erol of Backford]

On 12/8/2022 at 10:22 AM, Jeff said:

Tatius is kind of focused on the war in the Holy Country and the consecration of the Temple of the Reaching Moon, and most Lunar resources have been committed to these two projects, as these will cement his legacy and that of the Assiday family. If he hears that some Provincial officer got killed along with his militia-followers, he's going to demand that his local allies deal with the situation rather than waste his time. Only if your actions threaten the war in the Holy Country or his temple-building project (or threaten key foundations of either - such as liberating one of the cities of Sartar) is he going to throw his own resources into the fray.

I noticed that this had been in the works since 1580 as directed by the Red Emperor 1557-1600 - Conflict with the Lunar Empire from the Well of Daliath.

1580	Red Emperor orders the plan for building a new Lunar Temple in Sartar funded and implemented.

Has anyone messed around with thwarting the building of the temple? Maybe they disrupt materials being shipped or mined? Maybe they steal religious artifacts? Possibly they get with some group that could actualize earthquakes and destabilize the foundations?

Possibly the PC's come up with a plot to tie down lots of troops to guard and defend against said raids so other Sartar and Heortland uprisings may have a better chance of flourishing?

Of course the PC's would be more apt to flee far and wide after creating said ruckus but it may be fun head of to the River of Cradles for a while so things cool off a bit?

Are there plans of a Lunar Reaching Moon Temple? Maybe in Imther? I recall one being done for Griffin Island which was small to scale but could be used as a basis. How would one compare to say one of the  Sun Dome Temple complexes?

Stealing the religious objets d'art for the temple would bring the dogs or should I say Lunar Hell Hounds out? What would the escort be on a partial shipment of temple goodies being sent and where would they come from in the Empire?

I mean it would be a shame if all those precious items were eaten by a dragon? Maybe they are stolen by the PC's just before the ceremonies are going to start... and since everyone is eaten the PC's get away with it and no one is the wiser?

Edited January 4, 2023 by Erol of Backford

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Are there plans of a Lunar Reaching Moon Temple? Maybe in Imther?

No.  Would have been done long before if needed, and Imther is already connected via the Daughter's Road.