Charisma ( CHA ) and Broo and Tusk riders ( oh my...)

[svensson]

Second comment....

Something else to remember is that RuneQuest generally and Glorantha specifically don't have a tier system for races such as is found in d20 systems. There is no kobold < goblin/halfling/gnome < orc/human/elf/dwarf < hobgoblin < bugbear system. In RQ, you take every race one at a time, accepting it as unique in and of itself, and each is able to generate opponents that will take the head off of your Sword of Humakt bad-assed Hero if he's lucky and you're not.

Think I'm wrong? Have a trollkin or baboon throw a javelin at you [1d10+half dmg bonus], get an impale result, and hit you in the head. That's an average of 6pts of damage, doubled to 12 pts. for the Special result. No matter what result you roll in a d20 game the average tribe-goblin will never get an instant kill the way it can happen in d100. Remember, in every RuneQuest fight you have a minimun 5% chance of dying outright no matter how badass you are. There is no such thing as a 'warm up fight'.

Even if a given race is ill favored in this statistic or that aspect, there's always a chance they'll kill you.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

Chaosium Scotty: Duck Wrangler 😁

More like "wrangler of the duck-obsessed".   😏
 

[Lordabdul]

On 12/10/2022 at 12:00 AM, Agentorange said:

I'm curious why these CHA scores for these and other races are so incredibly low...especially for Tusk Riders.

As David Scott says, CHA is leadership and strength of personality. Broos and Tusk Riders in particular are, basically, bullies. They have little personality besides how mean and violent their are. Their leaders lead by being the strongest and by threatening others with violence if they don't follow... not by being the most "leadership material". They lead (and generally speaking interact "socially") with STR and CON, not CHA.

 

On 12/10/2022 at 6:54 AM, Godlearner said:

The big problem I have with CHA and these creatures is that CHA limits the amount of magic one can know for both Spirit and Rune. 

While I have my problems with CHA and, in general, with RQ and BRP's characteristics, I actually love this because it explains why, in terms of world-building, the Tusk Riders need to raid other people and capture their souls in their severed hands or tails: it's because that's the only way the Tusk Riders can get more than a few points of magic.

 

For more discussion on Tusk Riders and why they're awesome, there's our podcast episode on the subject.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Lordabdul

[David Scott]

So I had a quick scan of CHA types and they fall into these levels (arranged by average). As you can see, there are 5 with very low CHA, and I've included the groups that  fall into the higher CHA groups for comparison.

1D6 (3.5)
Brollachans
Cave Trolls
Harpies
Magisaur Magnus
Tusk Riders

2D6 (7)
Broo
Gargoyle
Gorillas
Hadrosaurs
Huan To    
Maidstone Archers
Manticores
Minotaurs
Pteranodon
Satyrs
Sea Trolls
Trollkin
Unicorns
Wyverns

1D6+6 (9.5)
Magisaur Mediocris 

3D6 (11.5)
The Norm

2D6+6 (13)
Griffins
Magisaur Profundus
Mistress Race (Uzuz) Troll
Wind Children

3D6+3 (13.5)
Dragonewts—Second Stage: Beaked

4D6 (14)
Female Ludoch (males 3D6)

1D6+12 (15.5)
Fox women 

3D6+6 (17.5)
Dancers in Darkness
Dragonewts—Third Stage: Tailed Priest

2d6+12 (19)
Dryads 

3D6+12 (23.5)
Dragonewts—Fourth Stage: Full Priest 

Edited December 19, 2022 by David Scott
corrected Dragonewts—Second Stage: Beaked

[Agentorange]

On 12/10/2022 at 2:54 PM, Godlearner said:

The big problem I have with CHA and these creatures is that CHA limits the amount of magic one can know for both Spirit and Rune. 

Thank you to everybody who took the time to reply...though we don't really seem to have got closer to why some folks do get really low CHA.

My own feelings cover a bunch of stuff, this is just my thoughts. Although CHA is clearly described as being about leadership qualities, force of personality and NOT just looks - indeed as far back as RQ2 this is the case, it doesn't seem to have been applied equally across the range of creatures. looking at the very helpful Mr Scotts list above it does seem the  ah, more...homely creatures do seem to have pretty low CHA's, so there does seem to be an element of looks involved. But certainly there's other factors there as well.

But here's my problem. I don't see that Tusk rider leaders are going to have less force of personality than any other race, in fact given that they seem to be  by and large a bunch of violent thugs ( sorry if any of you come from Tusk Rider stock ) who don't respect weakness at all, it seems to me a Tusk Rider leader is going to have a force of personality so strong you could bounce rocks off of it.

At the other end of the spectrum we have Dragonewts with a CHA of 3d6+12. Yet dragonewts are often referred to as being so alien to human   understanding as to be almost incomprehensible in their motives and values. Again this doesn't sound like leadership qualities - though could well be force of personality. Yet if they are so alien to human concepts and understanding  can we truly assess their personality?

I can't help but feel the assessment of Broo and Tusk Rider CHA comes from a  subjective human perception of their qualities. From a human perception a Broo is a vile cosmic obscenity upon the good earth, no right thinking Orlanthi is going to follow a broo into battle ( example in the RQG rulebook )

But the very qualities which would cause a human orlanthi to despise a Broo are also the very qualiites that might cause one broo to follow another....

" ah, just look at old One Horn standing up there on the crag. , his chaos swollen muscles flexing away. His acid sweat glistening on his gnarled horn, the cracked skull bones of his enemies embedded in his leather armour, why you can almost see the disease spirits boiling from his mange ridden fur.

Thats a broo to follow and no doubt...."

 Now  none of this would be of anything other than academic interest..... except in RQG the ability to learn and cast spirit magic and rune magic is now tied to CHA and not POW. yet in the rule book POW is described as " POW shows the favour of the gods and integration with universe" and also " ability to work magic"

So we've got the weird situation where a Tusk Rider can have POW 18 and CHA 1. Which means he's so favoured by the gods he has no meaningful spells.

Now I get thems the rules and thats what we've got to work with - but for me using CHA for limiting spirit magic and Rune points feels like a massive fumble on the Design RPG gaming mechanism roll. Sorry ,but that's just how I feel

Edited December 15, 2022 by Agentorange
tidy up spelling and grammar

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, Agentorange said:

but for me using CHA for limiting spirit magic and Rune points feels like a massive fumble on the Design RPG gaming mechanism roll. Sorry ,but that's just how I feel

Bingo. In our games we use Int to limit spirit magic and there is no limit on amount of Rune magic one can know.

[Mugen]

16 hours ago, Agentorange said:

Now  none of this would be of anything other than academic interest..... except in RQG the ability to learn and cast spirit magic and rune magic is now tied to CHA and not POW. yet in the rule book POW is described as " POW shows the favour of the gods and integration with universe" and also " ability to work magic"

So we've got the weird situation where a Tusk Rider can have POW 18 and CHA 1. Which means he's so favoured by the gods he has no meaningful spells.

Now I get thems the rules and thats what we've got to work with - but for me using CHA for limiting spirit magic and Rune points feels like a massive fumble on the Design RPG gaming mechanism roll. Sorry ,but that's just how I feel

To me, it's symptomatic of many "quirks" in RQG "innovations". A change in rule combined with rules kept from previous editions, with unexpected results. 

[David Scott]

19 hours ago, Agentorange said:

So we've got the weird situation where a Tusk Rider can have POW 18 and CHA 1. Which means he's so favoured by the gods he has no meaningful spells.

Only if you methodically generate your NPC's. Don't you just match them up to you adventurers, deciding if they are weaker the same or stronger? A tusk rider with 7 Rune points is far more magically adept than any of my player adventurers'. I'd generally not give adversaries 18 POW, as it makes it harder for the adventurers to cast offensive magic at them. Usually I just use the eight in the GM Screen pack, I find them good enough (the one with a POW of 16 and 49 magic points is really tough though).

[Godlearner]

54 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Only if you methodically generate your NPC's.

Love advise that basically says ignore what is written and do whatever.

[David Scott]

16 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Love advise that basically says ignore what is written and do whatever.

Who has time to generate hoards of NPCs, I use what is already provided or just use my cheat sheet, in conjunction with either an NPC and or a squad sheet from the GM screen pack. I've a few simple varieties of those sheets, like a broo one, and a scorpionman one. I really like the simple NPC boxes in the starter set, so I use those for lots of npcs, much like the CoC Keeper and Malleus Monstorum Decks. 

[Godlearner]

13 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Who has time to generate hoards of NPCs, I use what is already provided or just use my cheat sheet, in conjunction with either an NPC and or a squad sheet from the GM screen pack. I've a few simple varieties of those sheets, like a broo one, and a scorpionman one. I really like the simple NPC boxes in the starter set, so I use those for lots of npcs, much like the CoC Keeper and Malleus Monstorum Decks. 

Of course, I would say everyone does that, but the point of the thread is that the rules made certain creatures, whose stats were carried over from previous editions, problematic.

[David Scott]

50 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Of course, I would say everyone does that, but the point of the thread is that the rules made certain creatures, whose stats were carried over from previous editions, problematic.

I can honestly that the very low CHA of Tusk Rider, and Cave trolls has caused no issues at all in my games (in published adventures). I can't comment on the three other types. Low personality scores and lack of leadership charisma, made the former very unlikeable and the latter pitiful. To me it just gives them almost a complete lack of social cohesion. This is opposed very nicely by the Dryad npc that is available, the complete opposite - very in control of her environment with doting followers (and she loves them). The players love her too.

Note that quite a few of these NPCs ignore the CHA limit of Rune points (one of the tusk riders, and the Dryad).

[Rodney Dangerduck]

13 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Note that quite a few of these NPCs ignore the CHA limit of Rune points

So the rules cause "no issues" if you ignore some of them?  🙂

(It is good, practical advice)

[Godlearner]

Rules, we don't need no stinking rules! 🤪

[JRE]

As said above by lordabdul, low CHA gives a very good reason for the nasty side of Tusk Riders and stealing magic. It also makes Broo less well-rounded, but you can always add a chaos feature, +4d6 to CHA if you need a charismatic broo, or a magical powerhouse. Magisaurs used to be dumber the more POWerful they were, so it makes sense it is now CHA too. Once again it fits with their sad story.

I confess I add magic because it fits the game, and do not count if it fits with CHA (as I usually do not note the CHA of NPCs). In one case that the players noticed something fishy I just added a tattoo matrix keyed to the NPC (as some players will easily mutilate a corpse and wear human tanned hide if they see a benefit on it).

[Kloster]

On 12/12/2022 at 11:08 PM, David Scott said:

3D6+3 (14.5)
Dragonewts—Second Stage: Beaked 3D6+3

Just for info, the average of 3D6+3 is 13.5, not 14.5.

[PhilHibbs]

On 12/15/2022 at 6:06 PM, Godlearner said:

Love advise that basically says ignore what is written and do whatever.

Where in the rules does it say that you have to roll dice to generate NPCs?

If I want a warrior for my characters to fight, I'm not going to roll dice! Warriors will be among the tougher members of a population. Should I keep rolling until I get stats for a person who would become a warrior? No, I'm going to say "STR 15 CON 13 DEX 12 done!"

If I want a Rune Lord of the Bloody Tusk, I'm not going to roll stats until I get one who is good enough. I'm going to say "POW 15 CHA 7 done!"

This contradicts no printed rules.

Edited December 19, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Godlearner]

34 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Where in the rules does it say that you have to roll dice to generate NPCs?

Where in the rules does it say you have to use the rules?

[Mugen]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

If I want a Rune Lord of the Bloody Tusk, I'm not going to roll stats until I get one who is good enough. I'm going to say "POW 15 CHA 7 done!"

This contradicts no printed rules.

Sure. I see Character Creation section as guidelines rather than "rules".

But a poster above suggested to ignore the limit on CHA as a solution to the problem, which is not the same.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Mugen

[Eff]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Where in the rules does it say that you have to roll dice to generate NPCs?

If I want a warrior for my characters to fight, I'm not going to roll dice! Warriors will be among the tougher members of a population. Should I keep rolling until I get stats for a person who would become a warrior? No, I'm going to say "STR 15 CON 13 DEX 12 done!"

If I want a Rune Lord of the Bloody Tusk, I'm not going to roll stats until I get one who is good enough. I'm going to say "POW 15 CHA 7 done!"

This contradicts no printed rules.

Well, the dice range does matter for the rules outside of generating NPCs, because Tusk Riders, with 1-6 CHA, would, by the rules, only ever be able to know 6 points of spirit magic spells and have 6 RP dedicated to a cult, and this should affect how they interact with the PCs. Now, we could always say that NPCs don't follow the the rules for limits on total magic, but in that case, what's the purpose of the rule? 

And more broadly, what does the CHA range rule convey? Cave trolls, who are on the fringe of social existence, have low CHA, and by extension not much magic, which fits their place in the imagined world. Should Tusk Riders also be people with limited magic? Their position in the world is as a danger and a nuisance, but they do have the social world of the Bloody Tusk. I don't think there's a firm answer there, but it is a serious question to ask about something as "minor" as stat distributions. To go over to the higher end of things, dryads and evolved dragonewts, capable magicians, have that reflected in their higher CHA. There's a similar kind of sensibility to it that allows the numbers to convey meaning at the table- I can read a big number on this stat, or a small number on another stat, and know "this kind of being can have many types of magic handy", or "this kind of being has limited reserves of magical power". 

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, Eff said:

Well, the dice range does matter for the rules outside of generating NPCs, because Tusk Riders, with 1-6 CHA, would, by the rules, only ever be able to know 6 points of spirit magic spells and have 6 RP dedicated to a cult, and this should affect how they interact with the PCs.

The maximum CHA for Tusk Riders is 7, not 6 (max of d6 plus 1 per die used). 

2 hours ago, Eff said:

Should Tusk Riders also be people with limited magic?

They are not.  Look at the magics of the Cult of the Bloody Tusk.  They get spirit magic and magic points (via Death Binding) from the people they have killed (Bestiary p71).  And since it's their victims' spirits casting the magics, the chances of success are higher.

 

[Jeff]

Other than error trappings sometimes missing the maximum number of Rune Points and spirit magic a NPC can have, I've not seen a problem here. We used to have the same problem error-trapping RQ3 (just that the limit was INT).

The Tusk Riders get around their CHA limits for spirit magic through Death Biding. They torture unfortunates to death, and bind their spirits into their tails or hands using Death Binding. The victim's spirit is trapped and bound, and the Tusk Rider can use the victim's magic points and cast their spirit magic spells, if any. The number of spirits a tusk rider can have is limited to their CHA and not their CHA/3.

Unfortunately, I had not written up the current cult when I wrote the GM Adventures booklet. But it really makes no impact on the scenario.