Inland water cults

[Squaredeal Sten]

In your opinion, would every sizeable body of water have its own naiad?  Have its own water cult?

I ask because I am working on an adventure at Zatarn Lake.  I'm considering what cult a godtalker in a fishing village there, might belong to. 

I get the impression that Oslir just belongs to Oslir, Zola Fel just belongs to Zola Fel, etc..

The lake is a necessary part of the story but the godtallker is, so far, incidental.  Nevertheless because the lake is said to periodically produce monsters, the fishermen would want some magical protection.

 

[Richard S.]

Did you mean for this to be in the group read board?

I think most inland water cults are just spirit cults, led by shamans. Only the most important bodies like the rivers have full priests and temples and the like.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

In your opinion, would every sizeable body of water have its own naiad?  Have its own water cult?

I'd expect it to have a naiad, usually the child of the associated river cult (though in the case of the Elf Sea, I think that's the home of the Arcos river deity itself).

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I ask because I am working on an adventure at Zatarn Lake.  I'm considering what cult a godtalker in a fishing village there, might belong to. 

Zatarn Lake is effectively the headwaters of the Marzeel, so its deity is either Marzeel or a child of Marzeel.  I expect you could go with the latter for your adventure. 

In regards to cult, it depends on whether you are on the Bacofi side or the Kitori side.  On the Bacofi side, I'd go with Marzeel (PM me on this).  On the Kitori side, Zatarn Lake may touch deeply towards the dark waters of the Underworld.  Alternately, from the standpoint of fishers, go with the boat gods (either Diros or Kogad the Boatman).  

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Nevertheless because the lake is said to periodically produce monsters, the fishermen would want some magical protection.

This can simply take the form of propitiatory worship - i.e. there's no god-talker per se (or it is someone from the boat cult or Marzeel cult who leads it), but there are annual sacrifices of creatures to the lake.

[Squaredeal Sten]

52 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I'd expect it to have a naiad, usually the child of the associated river cult (though in the case of the Elf Sea, I think that's the home of the Arcos river deity itself).

Zatarn Lake is effectively the headwaters of the Marzeel, so its deity is either Marzeel or a child of Marzeel.  I expect you could go with the latter for your adventure. 

In regards to cult, it depends on whether you are on the Bacofi side or the Kitori side.  On the Bacofi side, I'd go with Marzeel (PM me on this).  On the Kitori side, Zatarn Lake may touch deeply towards the dark waters of the Underworld.  Alternately, from the standpoint of fishers, go with the boat gods (either Diros or Kogad the Boatman).  

This can simply take the form of propitiatory worship - i.e. there's no god-talker per se (or it is someone from the boat cult or Marzeel cult who leads it), but there are annual sacrifices of creatures to the lake.

I like the propitistory worship. Will work it in..  Will PM you about Marzeel.  I have no background on Diros or Kogad, am interested.

This is on the Bacofi side, though I have a reference to the Kitori side and intend to have Uz boats on the lake.

[Joerg]

The lakes which make the lands of Ralia "Ralios" rather than Raliela or Ralorela do have their entities of the bodies of water. In the animistic world view, even the tinies puddle will have one, but those may be below recognition threshold.

A river's headwaters are somehow different from regular lakes, as they have turned into springs after the heads of the rivers returned to Magasta's Pool. (Leaving aside problems with lland-locked basins like that brackish lake in eastern Pent.) They have ties to River Horse.

[soltakss]

On 12/14/2022 at 3:15 PM, Squaredeal Sten said:

In your opinion, would every sizeable body of water have its own naiad?  Have its own water cult?

Every body of water has a Naiad, in my Glorantha, unless it has been destroyed.

The Lunars killed a lot of their water spirits, for some reason.

I doubt if many have cults, unless they are major lakes or rivers.

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Every body of water has a Naiad, in my Glorantha, unless it has been destroyed.

The Lunars killed a lot of their water spirits, for some reason.

I doubt if many have cults, unless they are major lakes or rivers.

 

So what I did was have their prospective boat captain say in addition to salary he wanted 2L for a sacrifice to the naiad of the lake.  They accepted that, he held a ceremony on arrival at the lake,  weighted a lamb and tossed it overboard. The naiad waved.  And they won't get a monster encounter.   

Speaking of which the Bestiary is light on water monsters, so I adapted one from an American lake legend.  I've got to say, there isn't much variety in legendary lake monsters. Most run to variations on sea serpents, or to ghosts of suicides and drownings.  Regardless of culture, from North America to Russia.  

Edited December 22, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
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[Qizilbashwoman]

13 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So what I did was have their prospective boat captain say in addition to salary he wanted 2L for a sacrifice to the naiad of the lake.  They accepted that, he held a ceremony on arrival at the lake,  weighted a lamb and tossed it overboard. The naiad waved.  And they won't get a monster encounter.   

Speaking of which the Bestiary is light on water monsters, so I adapted one from an American lake legend.  I've got to say, there isn't much variety in legendary lake monsters. Most run to variations on sea serpents, or to ghosts of suicides and drownings.  Regardless of culture, from North America to Russia.  

don't forget mermaids and selkies. a reminder that right-minded folk know that mermaids are predators and humans are tasty

[Darius West]

On 12/15/2022 at 2:15 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

In your opinion, would every sizeable body of water have its own naiad?  Have its own water cult?

Yes.  At least one naiad per large body of water.  Maybe even a demigod.  I see naiads as being manifestations of a river's beauty, fertility and magic.  As to how they form, well we could hypothesize many things...  A reward from the water deity for faithful worship?  Spontaneously created by the deity to serve and proselytize with nearby humans so that the water deity will gain worship?  Too much fertility, spirit and man runes in the water?  Only the gods (or godlearners perhaps) really know.

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Yes.  At least one naiad per large body of water.  Maybe even a demigod.  I see naiads as being manifestations of a river's beauty, fertility and magic.  As to how they form, well we could hypothesize many things...  A reward from the water deity for faithful worship?  Spontaneously created by the deity to serve and proselytize with nearby humans so that the water deity will gain worship?  Too much fertility, spirit and man runes in the water?  Only the gods (or godlearners perhaps) really know.

the gloranthan chicken and egg is "which came first, the naiad or the local body of water"

[Squaredeal Sten]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Yes.  At least one naiad per large body of water.  Maybe even a demigod.  I see naiads as being manifestations of a river's beauty, fertility and magic.  As to how they form, well we could hypothesize many things...  A reward from the water deity for faithful worship?  Spontaneously created by the deity to serve and proselytize with nearby humans so that the water deity will gain worship?  Too much fertility, spirit and man runes in the water?  Only the gods (or godlearners perhaps) really know.

IMHO the local naiad is not the result of a purpose to interact with humans.  The naiad exists because of the principle that everything that moves must have a spirit to enable it to do so.  The rivers originally flowed upward from the sea, and when they formed in the gods age humans may not even have been around.  As there were no human witnesses, we cannot account exactly for the formation of any body of water, but it must all proceed from the water rune and that rune's original owner among the gods.

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

the gloranthan chicken and egg is "which came first, the naiad or the local body of water"

As far as I am concerned, a body of water is already a divine entity in itself, although it takes a certain size or amount of life supported for it to be worthy of worship beyond thanks for partaking in its bounty. Any form of nymph (including naiads) are spiritual emanations of a magical place (such as a hill, a meadow, or a body of water), and something separate from the physical divinity of the place. Bodies of water may have or be currents, which adds another form of water divinity to the mix, such as river deities.

Then there may be divine entities related to the sapient water beings in the water, such as the mer-kings or -queens. It takes quite a big body of water to have a sufficient population of sentient entities and such a ruler.

Does every oasis in Prax have a naiad? How about lesser water holes? One difference might lie in whether River Horse can visit or not.

Water deities can lay dormant, like the serpents (seasonal rivers) of Prax. Or Choralinthor prior to the Breaking of the World.

 

[Darius West]

17 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

IMHO the local naiad is not the result of a purpose to interact with humans.  The naiad exists because of the principle that everything that moves must have a spirit to enable it to do so.  The rivers originally flowed upward from the sea, and when they formed in the gods age humans may not even have been around.  As there were no human witnesses, we cannot account exactly for the formation of any body of water, but it must all proceed from the water rune and that rune's original owner among the gods.

Fair enough, but why take on a human-like form if that is the case?  Isn't a moving body of water infinitely more versatile?  It is so protean it can literally break into peices and reform, or create multiple appendages.  Most of the water spirits are serpents, not naiads, and I don't think that is an accident.  I don't think naiads predate the man rune.  How could they, except in a non-man-rune form?

[Squaredeal Sten]

Naiads, like dryads, shape their bodies at wll from their basic material: in their case water.  Or, at will, don't display bodies at all.  So the "man rune" shape is a choice.  Maybe a fashion?  A shape they can put on for man rune visitors.  Who are, after all, the most common intelligent beings a river or lake spirit will interact with in Time.  What shapes they may have used most before Time is an interesting subject but not material to the adventure.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

I see three options, and we may find more

 

 

a) the naiad is a spirit of water without any shape, but when she meet some man-rune being (troll, human, ...) she shows herself (or she is seen by the man being ) in the man being form (so a troll sees a troll, a human sees a human ...)

it could be explained by the fact that naiad expects some alliance (protection, sex, worship, something else) or at least peace from the other one (maybe the naiad is seen as a water deer by a deer after all).

 

b) the naiad has one man shape because a water god (zola fel ? heler ? styx ? ...) created her in the same way that darkness goddess created trolls. then depending on the god the man shape may be a troll shape, a human shape, ...

 

c) the naiad had no shape when she was created, but one day a man-being, probably human, decided to make alliance with the lake, the river, for any reason (fishing, ...)... and started a worship. This new thing changed the naiad, she obtain power from this first devotee, and POW after POW or mp after mp, the bond was stronger. So strong that one day (centuries age, ages ago) the naiad was "corrupted" and, when she want to be more than spirit, she must have the same shape than her first worshipper species

 

of course you may find other type of water spirit in some water source

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 12/23/2022 at 6:32 AM, Qizilbashwoman said:

don't forget mermaids and selkies. a reminder that right-minded folk know that mermaids are predators and humans are tasty

I think of mermaids and selkies as oceanic beings. After all the mer in mermaids seems to come from Mare in Latin.   But my adventure is/ was on an inland body if water.

 

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
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[M Helsdon]

31 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I think of mermaids and srlkies as oceanic beings.

Orlanthi and his kin slew all the Manthi merfolk in the inland waters during the Gods War.

[whitelaughter]

Quite likely, but the spirits of dried up water holes could get interesting - since many creatures, including humans, are going to die there during droughts. Perhaps you have spirits that are naiads when there is water, but hags when there is not?

 

Oh, linguistic question - people prefer 'billabong' or 'oxbow lake' for ponds created by a river losing a bend? (@#$ cannot see how to add a poll!)

[Squaredeal Sten]

29 minutes ago, whitelaughter said:

Quite likely, but the spirits of dried up water holes could get interesting - since many creatures, including humans, are going to die there during droughts. Perhaps you have spirits that are naiads when there is water, but hags when there is not?

 

Oh, linguistic question - people prefer 'billabong' or 'oxbow lake' for ponds created by a river losing a bend? (@#$ cannot see how to add a poll!)

oxbow lake here.  I am familiar with the word billabong but didn't know that was its meaning.

[Kloster]

6 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

oxbow lake here.  I am familiar with the word billabong but didn't know that was its meaning.

Same for me.

For information, in french, the correct term is 'bras mort'.

Edited December 27, 2022 by Kloster

[Qizilbashwoman]

15 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

people prefer 'billabong' or 'oxbow lake' for ponds created by a river losing a bend?

billabong is fun as hell to say but i think it's entirely restricted to Australia, it's a Wiradhuri loan. Oxbow or oxbow lake are standard. As long as people know what you are talking about, though, say billabong!

[JRE]

Those that do not dry up fast are usually reconnected with the main river a few times a year, whenever there is a flood. So a clear example of a child of the river, still connected with the source, but of less importance than tributary rivers.

Oxbow lakes (we have quite a few different names in Spanish, and many only local) are fertile areas, though prone to flooding and refuges for aquatic birds, but also for mosquitos and plenty of other insects. That would make them attractive for hunters but not for inhabitation. I suppose that is reflected also in the spirits that represent them.

As there will be few humans around, except hunters and river cane gatherers, I expect most interactions will be more appeasement than direct worship, though cane gatherers may have a regular thing. I would have them adopt bird form, as that is the mobile element of the domain most people will see. So a Stork or Heron, as those are usually seen as positive by humans.

It would make a great setting for Durulz, and they could well worship the spirit. In that case I would expect the spirit tends to adopt durulz shape, though as most water spirits they could adopt other shapes.

[Martin Dick]

Billabongs are where the bunyips live, not a good place to camp around, as the jolly swagman would agree for other reasons