If the 2nd Age Clanking City Broke the Compromise, Can it be Visited via a Heroquest?

[mfbrandi]

10 hours ago, John Biles said:

1.  All stories are true in the Godtime.  This allows every worship group to have its own versions of the myths, though there will be overlap in adjacent areas and those more visited myths will have more power …

2.  …  Normal worshippers *believe* the stories they tell and [their] belief empowers the appropriate mythic patterns.  This is worship.

This is the Tinkerbell theory of religion, right? Fairies/gods exist and have power if and to the extent that people believe in them. We say “all stories are true in Godtime” but we none of us knows what that means. However, we think we can trade in our battered notion of truth for one of the power of story: if we ship hard for a Godtime plotline, we can tap that story to produce “appropriate” effects in the mundane world of ordinary time — that looks … usable. (Don’t ask whether a story is true or false (illuminating or benighted, beautiful or ugly), ask whether it is powerful or weak. Belief is power. Might makes right. Fight! Fight! Fight!)

I take it that the idea is that:

1. illuminates and Godlearners understand that this is what is going on — gods are not people and don’t have ideas of their own;
2. ordinary theists do not — they have some crazy theory about gods being independent entities and moral exemplars.

Is that right? Does that really sound like a world that is safer in the hands of the theists than of the illuminates? Think of Donald Trump Orlanth as the id of the people and the nastiest bits of the unconscious with their hands on both the defence budget and the nuclear button. Give me a mystic prone to bouts of detachment, any day. (But on the other hand, perhaps, Zelazny’s The Dream Master and Le Guin’s The Lathe of Heaven. Possibly more Godlearnery.)

11 hours ago, John Biles said:

the Great Compromise raises up forces to enforce itself

Which sounds like giving agency/personhood to the Compromise itself. Is that your idea? Sometimes — I think — this agency is given to Arachne Solara (the face of the Compromise), “the greatest of the great gods.” Presumably, the great gods which receive little or no worship (from memory (so could well be wrong), there has been some to and fro over the years as to whether Arachne Solara is the object of active worship) and/or the Compromise itself are either powerless — doesn’t seem to be the case for AS — or not powered on the Tinkerbell model??? Only Godlearners and illuminates would know to keep enough worship tied to the myths of Comprise to keep it powered up; ordinary theists would be blindly pouring their POW into stories in which they/their gods win, right?

And the Compromise tries to lay off the “risk” of its agents being illuminates by also making them crazed fanatics. I can’t see that being a problem, at all.

If worshipers beliefs drive which Godtime stories have power, what ensures that worshipers have beliefs that preserve the world, not those which destroy it? “Morality” seems like a non-answer: if they have the “right” beliefs, world-preserving stories will be empowered — sure, but what makes the people “moral” in this sense? (Contrast with some rationalist view of religion: we know a priori that god is good, and (perhaps) god’s revelation leads the people to goodness. In Glorantha, if the people are wicked and tell stories of wickedness and destruction, the gods will follow suit, and world-destroying magics will become more available to the people, right?)

It sometimes seems that the official Chaosium “voice” is Godlearner metaphysics with theist attitude. The first bit is OK, I guess, as it facilitates explaining/understanding the game, but I never saw why we — as players or as characters — should buy into the second.

Of course, I have likely misunderstood you completely. In which case, my apologies.

[Joerg]

34 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

illuminates and Godlearners understand that this is what is going on — gods are not people and don’t have ideas of their own;

Zzabur says that the gods are (no longer) (the original, One World runic) people and don't have any free will to exert on the Mundane world (any more). What (material) Creation comes out of the Chaosium is roughly in equilibrium to what is constantly lost to Chaos, slowing the eventual deterioration enormously (unless there are cataclysmic discharges).

 

 

34 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

ordinary theists do not — they have some crazy theory about gods being independent entities and moral exemplars.

According to Zzabur (not really illuminated or a God Learner)...

Zzabur knows all about the morality of the Original Rune entities, and he exemplifies their virtues (Might Makes Right).

 

 

34 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Is that right? Does that really sound like a world that is safer in the hands of the theists than of the illuminates? Think of Donald Trump Orlanth as the id of the people and the nastiest bits of the unconscious with their hands on both the defence budget and the nuclear button. Give me a mystic prone to bouts of detachment, any day. (But on the other hand, perhaps, Zelazny’s The Dream Master and Le Guin’s The Lathe of Heaven. Possibly more Godlearnery.)

Orlanth often means well, but is dreadfully impulsive, easy to anger, and bound to over-react. Slaying the Emperor both to take revenge for the dismemberment of Umath and to take his rightful place as King of the Gods is a case of meaning well rather than over-reacting, though...

The theist ability to impose (human) personality onto the deities is a powerful force. The deities are still archetypes, but less remote archetypes. "When the gods were more man-like, mankind was more god-like."

Many of the successful mystery cults have an element of incarnation, of returning as (little more than) a human interacting with humanity. (The major Elder Races don't usually need this un-distancing for their niches.)

 

 

34 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Which sounds like giving agency/personhood to the Compromise itself. Is that your idea?

Agency: yes. The Compromise is the bundle of agency of the deities participating in the Ritual of the Net, as well as representing those not directly involved.

 

34 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Sometimes — I think — this agency is given to Arachne Solara (the face of the Compromise), “the greatest of the great gods.”

Who wove it into her web.

 

34 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Presumably, the great gods which receive little or no worship (from memory (so could well be wrong), there has been some to and fro over the years as to whether Arachne Solara is the object of active worship)

Was it? The ecstatic worship at Wild Temple predates RuneQuest, IIRC.

 

 

34 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

and/or the Compromise itself are either powerless — doesn’t seem to be the case for AS — or not powered on the Tinkerbell model??? Only Godlearners and illuminates would know to keep enough worship tied to the myths of Comprise to keep it powered up; ordinary theists would be blindly pouring their POW into stories in which they/their gods win, right?

Montheistically founded Belief in the Neverland sense is different from Sacrificial Quid Pro Quo of polytheistic theism.

The Orlanthi are die-hard fans of their home colors, even when it drops into Third League, whereas the Pelorians find another Major League team if the previous one doesn't make the cut. In both cases, mass sacrifice powers the Quid for the holy people's Quo. The distribution of the Quo is different between Peloria and the Theyalans, with a lot more administrative overhead in Peloria.

With the Malkioni Quid pro Quo practically all Invisible God Quo goes into the administrative overhead handled by the wizards.

 

 

34 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

If worshipers beliefs drive which Godtime stories have power, what ensures that worshipers have beliefs that preserve the world, not those which destroy it?

Again, "belief" isn't quite right. The worshipers re-enact stories that have demonstrably worked until now. Sometimes a different story or a variation of a story works better in the context of a new problem, and successful cults adopt and adapt to those new or different versions, and sometimes an older, almost forgotten story contains answers pertinent to a current context. The older stories never have been away, but they may not have been empowered to reflect on the world of the Compromise, and the newly discovered paths would have been included in potentia from the outset of the world of the Compromise.

 

 

34 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

“Morality” seems like a non-answer: if they have the “right” beliefs, world-preserving stories will be empowered — sure, but what makes the people “moral” in this sense?

The "mores" in "o tempora, o mores" means customs and practices. Morality is behavior according to these. Ethnicities more than ethics.

 

34 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

(Contrast with some rationalist view of religion: we know a priori that god is good, and (perhaps) god’s revelation leads the people to goodness.

Demiurge?

 

34 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

In Glorantha, if the people are wicked and tell stories of wickedness and destruction, the gods will follow suit, and world-destroying magics will become more available to the people, right?)

The Mostali were not wrong when they blamed the overabundance of divine Creation for bursting the bubble of the universe, the birth of Umath taking apart the (running) World Machine, with all manner of subsequent damages emerging from this primal disruption. And they suffer from having lost access to the master copy of the World Machine blueprint, and have to make do with inferior, incomplete work orders to each of their castes. Their collective effort to set this right created the Iron caste, giving them access to world-destroying magics.

None of the gods outside of the Chaos pantheon are world destroyers - even Shargash / Zorak Zoran who destroy the world piecemeal given a chance to find release from their cultural/moral shackles went the full monte.

 

34 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

It sometimes seems that the official Chaosium “voice” is Godlearner metaphysics with theist attitude. The first bit is OK, I guess, as it facilitates explaining/understanding the game, but I never saw why we — as players or as characters — should buy into the second.

The monomyth is good for the general outline, but easily breaks down on specifics or local observations. It works best near the Theyalan source material or the material re-interpreted by the Theyalans themselves.

[John Biles]

5 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

This is the Tinkerbell theory of religion, right? Fairies/gods exist and have power if and to the extent that people believe in them. We say “all stories are true in Godtime” but we none of us knows what that means. However, we think we can trade in our battered notion of truth for one of the power of story: if we ship hard for a Godtime plotline, we can tap that story to produce “appropriate” effects in the mundane world of ordinary time — that looks … usable. (Don’t ask whether a story is true or false (illuminating or benighted, beautiful or ugly), ask whether it is powerful or weak. Belief is power. Might makes right. Fight! Fight! Fight!)

To the believer, the story is true.  This is very much a situation where only illuminates know the truth of the matter, but knowing the truth of the matter generally makes you a terrible person because you see through everything that holds you back from your worst impulses.

 

5 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

I take it that the idea is that:

1. illuminates and Godlearners understand that this is what is going on — gods are not people and don’t have ideas of their own;
2. ordinary theists do not — they have some crazy theory about gods being independent entities and moral exemplars.

The Gods aren't imaginary, but they can't act in the world on their own and the Godtime is sustained by mortals.  What precisely actually happened before the start of Time can't be known, but there were Gods, they made the Great Compromise, and changed their very nature; they now sustain Glorantha and it sustains them.

 

5 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Is that right? Does that really sound like a world that is safer in the hands of the theists than of the illuminates? Think of Donald Trump Orlanth as the id of the people and the nastiest bits of the unconscious with their hands on both the defence budget and the nuclear button. Give me a mystic prone to bouts of detachment, any day. (But on the other hand, perhaps, Zelazny’s The Dream Master and Le Guin’s The Lathe of Heaven. Possibly more Godlearnery.)

This is Glorantha, where history's greatest monsters are largely all illuminates.  The first age went down in fire because people created an illuminated god who could spread illumination like a disease.  The second age went down because dragon mystics wanted to turn everyone in central Genertla into a dragon, the Godlearners treated the godtime as a toy, and Errinoru went full Elf Hitler.  And the third age ends in a crazed mystic vs an empire of illuminates who want to play with Chaos.

Orlanth is a minor danger compared to what people with illumination do in Glorantha.  

Trump would definitely be an illuminate - he doesn't believe in anything.  Unless you can worship yourself.

 

 

5 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Which sounds like giving agency/personhood to the Compromise itself. Is that your idea? Sometimes — I think — this agency is given to Arachne Solara (the face of the Compromise), “the greatest of the great gods.” Presumably, the great gods which receive little or no worship (from memory (so could well be wrong), there has been some to and fro over the years as to whether Arachne Solara is the object of active worship) and/or the Compromise itself are either powerless — doesn’t seem to be the case for AS — or not powered on the Tinkerbell model??? Only Godlearners and illuminates would know to keep enough worship tied to the myths of Comprise to keep it powered up; ordinary theists would be blindly pouring their POW into stories in which they/their gods win, right?

And the Compromise tries to lay off the “risk” of its agents being illuminates by also making them crazed fanatics. I can’t see that being a problem, at all.

I wouldn't say it has personhood, but the Compromise exists to sustain the world and so it influences fate.  Eventually, one of those agents will likely fail and the world will go down in flames and some other solution will have to be found.

5 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

If worshipers beliefs drive which Godtime stories have power, what ensures that worshipers have beliefs that preserve the world, not those which destroy it? “Morality” seems like a non-answer: if they have the “right” beliefs, world-preserving stories will be empowered — sure, but what makes the people “moral” in this sense? (Contrast with some rationalist view of religion: we know a priori that god is good, and (perhaps) god’s revelation leads the people to goodness. In Glorantha, if the people are wicked and tell stories of wickedness and destruction, the gods will follow suit, and world-destroying magics will become more available to the people, right?)

 

There's always some people who want to destroy the world - that's Chaos.  But some people may have horrrible beliefs that don't go so far as actual world destroying.  

What makes people moral is that myths always have a moral lesson; if your religion involves around acting out morality plays, it's going to tend to infuse you with those morals.  Myths have power, but myths also have ethics imbedded in them.  

But since Glornatha doesn't actually have an objective code of morality, what is moral in one place may not be moral in another, so that cannibalism is sometimes Chaos and sometimes not.

If that doesn't work, it probably means you're illuminated.  Hopefully, you'll go contemplate your navel and try to unite with higher forces instead of deciding that your shoes are telling you to make everyone in Seshnela into a giant shoe, but...

 

 

[Akhôrahil]

On 12/25/2022 at 1:47 PM, mfbrandi said:

This is the Tinkerbell theory of religion, right? Fairies/gods exist and have power if and to the extent that people believe in them.

Not belief, practice. Gloranthan gods don’t care about belief. The focus on faith and belief is a very Christian one that even most other world religions don’t replicate (you’re a believing Christian, but a practicing Muslim, or an observant Jew).

Edited December 27, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[mfbrandi]

9 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Not belief, practice. Gloranthan gods don’t care about belief.

Point taken. I don’t care about the belief–practice divide. (You have to shout that you believe in fairies — it is not enough to “believe it in your heart”.)

The point was that the tail wags the dog: if the myths gain or lose power depending on how many people replicate/visit them in heroquest, then people determine the available magic, not the nature or deeds of the gods — everything is true of the gods, but some stories have power, and the worshippers determine which those are.

And what is to stop this reinforcing “bad” myths as much as “good” ones?

(And no, I am not pushing the idea that Glorantha would be a “better” — more humane — place if the gods/available magic were worshipper-independent.)

[Akhôrahil]

41 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Point taken. I don’t care about the belief–practice divide. (You have to shout that you believe in fairies — it is not enough to “believe it in your heart”.)

To be fair, this is in the original. ”If you believe in fairies, wave your handkerchiefs and clap your hands.” 🙂

 

[Eff]

On 12/27/2022 at 6:14 AM, mfbrandi said:

Point taken. I don’t care about the belief–practice divide. (You have to shout that you believe in fairies — it is not enough to “believe it in your heart”.)

The point was that the tail wags the dog: if the myths gain or lose power depending on how many people replicate/visit them in heroquest, then people determine the available magic, not the nature or deeds of the gods — everything is true of the gods, but some stories have power, and the worshippers determine which those are.

And what is to stop this reinforcing “bad” myths as much as “good” ones?

(And no, I am not pushing the idea that Glorantha would be a “better” — more humane — place if the gods/available magic were worshipper-independent.)

Quote

Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past. The tradition of all dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living. And just as they seem to be occupied with revolutionizing themselves and things, creating something that did not exist before, precisely in such epochs of revolutionary crisis they anxiously conjure up the spirits of the past to their service, borrowing from them names, battle slogans, and costumes in order to present this new scene in world history in time-honored disguise and borrowed language.

-Karl Marx, The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte, 1852

I have a longer, more practically applicable disquisition related to this topic in the process of refinement and editing, but you're right that it would be deeply unsatisfactory if the matter was as simple as "people in Glorantha define their world through the free choice of myths". Here is what I think is better and more meaningful- it is possible to shape the world and alter it through interacting with myths, but in a constrained fashion. What has come before- what has happened- cannot be erased without resetting the entire universe. This process therefore proceeds through reinterpretation of the existing myths and through the explicit creation of new ones- which connect onto the old myths. 

There is also inevitably pushback. Acting on "the world" means the world acts on you, acting on a particular god or hero or daimon means that they act on you as well, and no one knows the consequences in advance. Nevertheless, within these limits, staggering changes may arise, cloaked in "time-honored disguise", wearing costumes borrowed from those "spirits of the past". 

[mfbrandi]

14 minutes ago, Eff said:

but you're right that it would be deeply unsatisfactory if the matter was as simple as "people in Glorantha define their world through the free choice of myths"

Free choice isn’t the issue. If people’s choices are determined by the ironclad laws of historical materialism (or whatever), that is no reason to believe naïve theists will be less dangerous than reflective godlearners or illuminates, is it? However, it seems clear that I will remain in a minority of one, so I had better let it go.

[Eff]

4 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Free choice isn’t the issue. If people’s choices are determined by the ironclad laws of historical materialism (or whatever), that is no reason to believe naïve theists will be less dangerous than reflective godlearners or illuminates, is it? However, it seems clear that I will remain in a minority of one, so I had better let it go.

That wasn't quite what was being discussed, though, so I didn't discuss it as a possibility. I actually don't think that the "naive theist" is much less dangerous, if at all, because the reality of the situation is that they will still interact with the world in a way that causes changes and upsets and disruptions, and while they may not have the capacity to have a particular level of dangerous intent, they also don't have any preventative safeguards that the "reflective illuminate" (setting aside godlearners for a moment, as they have nigh-universally been used as a pejorative from some point in the early 80s until 2020-2021 across the fandom) likely has knowledge of. And of course at the same time, the ability of the "reflective illuminate" to turn knowledge into malevolence is similarly limited by action-reaction effects. 

Or to put it another way, it's not simply a matter of a static absolute like truth nor a totally malleable void, but malleability within limits.