Wolf Pirate magic etc.

[Squaredeal Sten]

It strikes me that because Harrek is a Hero with a Capital H, or maybe a superhero since he wears a god's pelt,  That some of the Wolf Pirates may actually worship him. Sacrificing MPs. And even POW.  And that he may teach them magic, for example the Berserker rune spell.  This would help explain the Wolf Pirates' military success.  And it would fit Harrek's reputation.

In tbe absence of more detail on the Wolf Pirates, my Glorantha is varying  that way.  What do you think?

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[Godlearner]

Quote

god's pelt

There you go, source of Rune magic.

[hipsterinspace]

I'd assume Harrek has some worshipers among them given his personal power, heroquesting prowess, and the fact that he seems to have "heroic immortality", but the main deity that the Wolf Pirates follow seems to be Ygg, a god of sea storms.

Edited December 25, 2022 by hipsterinspace

[jajagappa]

13 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

but the main deity that the Wolf Pirates follow seems to be Ygg, a god of sea storms.

Originally, yes, but if I recall correctly, Jeff has noted that Orlanth now is the primary Wolf Pirate deity.

[hipsterinspace]

I could see how that works, Orlanth’s magic for control over wind and storms is probably pretty helpful on the seas without being quite as specialist. l suppose it shouldn’t be a surprise with so many other groups having the primacy of Orlanth reasserted in the most recent info coming from Jeff.

[Squaredeal Sten]

The Wolf Pirates' variety of ethnicities and cults should confer advantages in combat, as it makes it hard to anticipate what is coming.  They should be the Swiss Army Knife of enemies. 

 

[Richard S.]

Orlanth has more initiates than Ygg among the pirates, but I personally think the influence of each cult within the crews would be about equal. If Harrek provides any magic to his close followers it's probably a spirit cult of the White Bear, with him as head shaman. He wouldn't provide any magic personally, being a mortal, but he'd probably still get MP and POW sacrificed to him specifically in return for temporal aid.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/wolf-pirates/

[Squaredeal Sten]

Is it your impression that the White Bear is just a spirit, or is it a god, evev a minor god?  IiRC there is a written reference to it as a god.  I will try to reference that.

[French Desperate WindChild]

28 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Is it your impression that the White Bear is just a spirit, or is it a god, evev a minor god?  IiRC there is a written reference to it as a god.  I will try to reference that.

is there realy any difference between great spirits and gods ? not sure for me

[Ironwall]

On 12/25/2022 at 1:33 PM, jajagappa said:

Originally, yes, but if I recall correctly, Jeff has noted that Orlanth now is the primary Wolf Pirate deity.

In what context is this? Is Ygg is no longer canon or is he now just another name for Orlanth or is Ygg still a thing and his cult now outnumbered from all the Orlanth worshippers joining the wolf pirates.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Ironwall

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 hour ago, Ironwall said:

In what context is this? Is Ygg is no longer canon or is he now just another name for Orlanth or is Ygg still a thing and his cult now outnumbered from all the Orlanth worshippers hoping the wolf pirates.

It is in the Well of Daliath, search for "Wolf Pirates",   Oct. 22, 2020 posting.  It has counts by nationality, keep scrolling down and you will find cults.  Also some detail.on Ygg. The cult still exists.  20% of Wolf Pirates worship Ygg.

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
Date of Well item.

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Is it your impression that the White Bear is just a spirit, or is it a god, evev a minor god?  IiRC there is a written reference to it as a god.  I will try to reference that.

I found it: Glorantha Sourcebook page 205.  ",,,became a Hero when he killed and bound his people's God. The White Bear..."

[svensson]

I don't know about outright worship, but I could see the Pelt of Rathor being a 'tribal wyter' for the Wolf Pirates. It's a valid question, what with how the Lunars treat Jar-Eel, but Sartarites don't worship Argrath directly, so we have examples that go both positive and negative.

Other than that, I can see a [very] variety of magics used by the WP's. Every ship has to have someone who can use the Open Seas Sorcery spell for one thing, and everyone who chooses to join the pirates brings the beliefs/magics they had ashore with them. Then, of course, there will be a large slice Sea Pantheon worshipers... likely Magasta and especially Wachaza converts. And I can see Humakt having a significant influence with Gunda being the Sword.

[svensson]

Just now, Squaredeal Sten said:

I found it: Glorantha Sourcebook page 205.  ",,,became a Hero when he killed and bound his people's God. The White Bear..."

Harrek killed his Hsunchen people's founding spirit-god, Rathor.

[Squaredeal Sten]

45 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

is there realy any difference between great spirits and gods ? not sure for me

Gods are confined to the godtime / gods plane. Per the Great Compromise.  They operate only indirectly in Time, with mortals using the gods' powers.  Except chaotic post Compromise ones like the Red Goddess. 

Spirits operate within Time and operate directly.

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[Richard S.]

19 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Gods are confined to the godtime / gods plane. Per the Great Compromise.  They operate only indirectly in Time, with mortals using the gods' powers.  Except chaotic post Compromise ones like the Red Goddess. 

Spirits operate within Time and operate directly.

Orlanth is the air and storms, Yelm is the sun, Ernalda's body is the earth. The gods are just as present and active in the world as spirits, while also dwelling in the God Time and Hero Plane. The compromise isn't a hard and fast line, it's just an agreement to not destroy the world again. There's not a hard and fast line between spirits and gods anymore, just differences in how they're approached and how powerful they are.

[Squaredeal Sten]

26 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Orlanth is the air and storms, Yelm is the sun, Ernalda's body is the earth. The gods are just as present and active in the world as spirits, while also dwelling in the God Time and Hero Plane. The compromise isn't a hard and fast line, it's just an agreement to not destroy the world again. There's not a hard and fast line between spirits and gods anymore, just differences in how they're approached and how powerful they are.

True, I think tbeCompromise said "do what they have always done" or words to that effect.  But the gods won't take new initiatives within Time.

[Richard S.]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

True, I think tbeCompromise said "do what they have always done" or words to that effect.  But the gods won't take new initiatives within Time.

Neither will spirits, really. They just act out their natures unless something compels them to do otherwise, like a shaman making a deal or an adventurer trying to bind them. Gods behave the same way, it's just a lot harder for someone to do something which forces them to act.

[hipsterinspace]

7 hours ago, svensson said:

Other than that, I can see a [very] variety of magics used by the WP's. Every ship has to have someone who can use the Open Seas Sorcery spell for one thing, and everyone who chooses to join the pirates brings the beliefs/magics they had ashore with them. Then, of course, there will be a large slice Sea Pantheon worshipers... likely Magasta and especially Wachaza converts. And I can see Humakt having a significant influence with Gunda being the Sword.

Jeff’s breakdown puts it at roughly 20% Ygg, 33% Orlanth, 10% Dormal, 10% Humakt, with the remaining quarter or so, if you take into account origins, likely having significant numbers of Hrestoli from the 25% drawn from Fronela and other Malkioni lands. Tolat is probably worshipped by the 5% from Teshnos, especially given that their most fearsome pirates, the Amazons, worship Tolat. I’d think of the non-Dormal Water cults the biggest would be Magasta and Diros, I wouldn’t think Wachaza factors much outside of maybe the Waertegi and Triolini.

9 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Orlanth has more initiates than Ygg among the pirates, but I personally think the influence of each cult within the crews would be about equal.

Orlanth and Valind both being associates of Ygg makes those numbers interesting, it would make some amount of sense for them to be worshiped as part of an Ygg-Storm mythic complex—at the very least with lay worship—especially if the ship wyters bound in the wolf figureheads are linked with Ygg. I think it makes sense along the same lines as Jeff saying most professional warriors in Dragon Pass are going to be lay worshipers of Humakt (and it would figure most Wolf Pirates probably are too).

Edited December 26, 2022 by hipsterinspace

[Akhôrahil]

10 hours ago, Ironwall said:

In what context is this? Is Ygg is no longer canon or is he now just another name for Orlanth or is Ygg still a thing and his cult now outnumbered from all the Orlanth worshippers hoping the wolf pirates.

They started out as (mostly) Yggites, but the Wolf Pirates have recruited people from all over the place, and the original Yggites have become a minority. So the second.

You can likely find completely oddball cults among the Wolf Pirates.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

Jeff’s breakdown puts it at roughly 20% Ygg, 33% Orlanth, 10% Dormal, 10% Humakt, with the remaining quarter or so, if you take into account origins, likely having significant numbers of Hrestoli from the 25% drawn from Fronela and other Malkioni lands. Tolat is probably worshipped by the 5% from Teshnos, especially given that their most fearsome pirates, the Amazons, worship Tolat. I’d think of the non-Dormal Water cults the biggest would be Magasta and Diros, I wouldn’t think Wachaza factors much outside of maybe the Waertegi and Triolini.

I doubt the Wolf Pirates recruit from the Amazons in any significant numbers as the latter are quite content with plundering their own neighbourhood.  More likely Teshnan recruits would be from Melib in general.

Kinda dubious about the wolf pirates from Malkioni lands are Hrestoli.  Gunda and Mularik the best known two, aren't Hrestoli (Humakti from Jonatela and Arkati from Tanisor).  I think it more likely the prospective wolf pirates from Malkioni lands wouldn't be representative of their societies but of their criminal subclass.  

 

 

[hipsterinspace]

18 hours ago, metcalph said:

Gunda and Mularik the best known two, aren't Hrestoli (Humakti from Jonatela and Arkati from Tanisor).  I think it more likely the prospective wolf pirates from Malkioni lands wouldn't be representative of their societies but of their criminal subclass.

I was under the impression that Mularik was still a Hrestoli, just like Arkat himself.

[metcalph]

31 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

I was under the impression that Mularik was still a Hrestoli, just like Arkat himself.

I'll be brief to avoid thread drift:

Hrestoli: Follower of Hrestol who seeks unity with the Hidden Mover.  Avoids worshipping other Gods.  Found mainly in Fronela.

Arkati:  Follower of Arkat whose spiritual goal is unknown.  Actively worships other Gods.  Found mainly in Ralios.

Calling an Arkati a Hrestoli is true in one way but false in many others.

More importantly, it's easy to imagine an Arkati being a Wolf Pirate because they have a long history of violent resistance to tyrannical authorities.  For the Hrestoli of Loskalm, not so much.  

[Richard S.]

12 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Hrestoli: Follower of Hrestol who seeks unity with the Hidden Mover.  Avoids worshipping other Gods.  Found mainly in Fronela.

Those are New Hrestoli. As far as we know, there aren't any original Hrestoli left; the last of them died with the god learners.

[hipsterinspace]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

I'll be brief to avoid thread drift:

Hrestoli: Follower of Hrestol who seeks unity with the Hidden Mover.  Avoids worshipping other Gods.  Found mainly in Fronela.

Arkati:  Follower of Arkat whose spiritual goal is unknown.  Actively worships other Gods.  Found mainly in Ralios.

Calling an Arkati a Hrestoli is true in one way but false in many others.

More importantly, it's easy to imagine an Arkati being a Wolf Pirate because they have a long history of violent resistance to tyrannical authorities.  For the Hrestoli of Loskalm, not so much.  

Hrestoli, the so-called Men-of-All, would be within rightness worshiping a deity as an emanation of the Invisible God, the God Learners—probably the most prominent Hrestoli group of all—did quite a lot of that. As for New Hrestoli, the Irensavalists, I wouldn't think there are many Loskalmi Wolf Pirates. I'd think the very syncretic Jonatelans are likely to have a few Hrestoli, especially given the role of the Talor cult (Talor himself being a Hrestoli). With the Jonatelans there's also the question of where their cultural hero Jonat Big Bear fits with Harrek, which could be a rather interesting mythic relationship. I'd think some Hrestoli Navigationalists probably count among the 5% of "Malkioni Heretics" who are part of the Wolf Pirates given their whole mytho-religious preoccupation with naval metaphors.

20 hours ago, metcalph said:

I doubt the Wolf Pirates recruit from the Amazons in any significant numbers as the latter are quite content with plundering their own neighbourhood.  More likely Teshnan recruits would be from Melib in general.

I wouldn't think they're Amazons, I'd imagine the Amazons are likely to kill anyone who would even attempt to go to Trowjang to recruit them, but their worship of Tolat makes very clear that he's a god who is very effective for pirates to worship. Tolat is also worshiped elsewhere in Teshnos, and the protection of his worship is mentioned in the Guide as part of the history of Melib.