Plant Rune HeroQuest

[Joerg]

There is a doubtlessly fun way to gain a plant rune, described in the Elder Secrets text on elf women...

[Ormi Phengaria]

On 12/28/2022 at 3:04 AM, mfbrandi said:

I am not attacking the IRL ritual or shamanic initiates’ right to say that they died and were brought back by their initiator. I don’t say that they are insincere, but I think the thing needs to be approached with a little subtlety.

But this is the thought experiment: a member of the shaman’s community — not a dissident or “unbelieving” member — who is not currently in an altered state finds a shaman actually eviscerating a would-be initiate and stuffing the cavity with stones; do they think (1) “business as usual”, (2) “something has gone terribly wrong”, (3) something else entirely, or (4) it depends?

Is this really a controversial take?

Disclaimer: I've only skimmed through the third page of this thread, and my own spirituality is predominantly "shamanic" (as katulunan or wuyu/very red daojiao).

Speaking of belief in these terms, where you state what it is you see as an outsider as the reality or actuality, and the received explanation being a layer of meaning-making laid atop the reality as something less essential, is the point where you will run into problems and potential controversy. To the practitioners, they are often just as literal and actual-- with outside eyes and a willingness to accept that your senses may not be absolute, it would be as though you are standing in another world where you do not and cannot witness these things occurring. And, yes, I would agree that you are, do not, and cannot. We assign different meanings to the same concepts, even if we share the words, to the point where what I am describing may be ineffable to you without one of us taking the effort to translate what is untranslatable and mix our worlds together.

With these initiations, the flesh, the inert matter, is not what is being spoken of. What is being spoken of is the living substance, the thing which is the deeper or higher reality, which is more true. This is absolutely not to say that these two categories are unrelated-- things are done to and with bodies which even you may perceive, and which may frighten, shock and/or disgust you. And it would not surprise you to learn that there have been many misunderstandings in this, to be grossly charitable, over the past several centuries.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Ormi Phengaria

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

With these initiations, the flesh, the inert matter, is not what is being spoken of.

Which was my point — although made from the POV of an outsider/unbeliever.

It sometimes seems to me that some people’s attitude to Glorantha goes a bit like this:

1. In the real world, magic and religion are bad science (and so they don’t work);
2. In Glorantha, the natural laws are different and — abracadabra! — bad science becomes good, magic works, and religion is true.

Even as a lifelong infidel, this seems to me rather hard on real-world religion — as if it were “broken” and could be “fixed” by importing some natural laws and grimoires from the Lozenge. Surely, that is not right. Surely, the real world is exactly as “magical” as it needs to be, already. And if I don’t see the world in the same way religious people do, that is not because we disagree about physics and chemistry, is it?

Dragging this back to the Aldrya initiation: I have no problem with it being hard for an animal to initiate to Aldrya; no problem with it requiring the animal to be transformed into a vegetable (even literally); if I am a little uncomfortable with the use of elements of real-world shamanism in the transformation, it is because the Gloranthan transformation looks to be very much about “the flesh, the inert matter” and so looks (to me) to be mocking real-world shamanism as bad science.

I am not here to attack or defend real-world shamanism, religion, or magic(k), but I think treating it as bad science or pseudoscience is boring and lazy.

“But in my elf game, I want to powertrip. I want to point my finger and call down the fire of the gods.” That is fine: go ahead. But the needs of our FRPs shouldn’t be allowed to distort how we see the nominally similar subject matter in the real world, should it?

[Squaredeal Sten]

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

But I take it that on the official “be more hardcore: get reborn as an elf” version of initiation to Aldrya, the character does end up with a plant rune … if they are alive at the end.

Most of this thread is speculation about what the "official" rebirth as an elf procedure(s) might be, and whether such a rebirth is required at all for a human to initiate to Aldrya.   I don't think any of the paths to initiation presented so far is official.   Whatever might be 'official" is not evident or not stated plainly  in the RQ2 gods material (although it is official that there must be some path to do it), and it will be some months before we see official RQG gods material for Aldrya.  And it may not be conclusive on these subjects then.

But it does make game mechanics sense that such an initiate must end up with a plant rune affinity, since otherwise it's likely that some of the Aldrya rune magic will not be accessible. 

It is not plain either how this would be a tradeoff with the man and beast runes, though modeling on the existing form rune mechanics an increase in Plant should require a decrease in one or both of Man or Beast.  But let's note that elves do have some man rune.  Would you zero out Beast first?

And in game terms it makes sense that acquisition of the plant rune will not be usual or easy, because it is not listed as an available form rune for starting adventurers in RQG.    I am not arguing with that conclusion.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
It is plain in RQ2 material that there is a path

[soltakss]

The Cult Compendium entry for Aldrya says for Lay Membership:

Quote

Beastmen, dragonewts, ducks, and humans may sometimes join. They must pass the Gardeners’ examination, who will also make sure, through Divination, that the foreigner has no ill intents in mind or heart. The examination may be abstracted as POW + CHA divided by 2 X 5 on D100. CHA is always minus 10 for non-Aldryami races.

For Initiates, it says:

Quote

Candidates for Initiation must prove themselves to be ready for adulthood in the tribe. They must have been Lay Members for at least 2 years (for outsiders) and know all of the skills listed for Lay Members at least 50%, plus at least 1 point of all three spells. They also must prove themselves to the council of Elders. This is done by making a roll of POW + INT + CHA divided by 2 X 5 on D100.

Note that non-Aldryami races must subtract 10 from their CHA for being from a foreign race. After Initiation, though, they will always measure their CHA as if they were an elf, and will have the penalty when using CHA in relation to non-Aldryami.

So, no mention of a rebirth into Aldrya.

The Kyger Litor cult, in comparison, says:

Quote

A non-troll passing this exam will undergo a ritual rebirth ceremony and afterwards be addressed as a troll by all cult members. They need pass no exams other than those required of all members.

So, I don't see why humans joining Aldrya need to undergo a rebirth ceremony to become an Elf. They are accepted as Aldryami simply by being initiated. As such, they learn the Plant Rune, as Initiates of a Plant Rune Cult.

[Ormi Phengaria]

19 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Which was my point — although made from the POV of an outsider/unbeliever.

It sometimes seems to me that some people’s attitude to Glorantha goes a bit like this:

1. In the real world, magic and religion are bad science (and so they don’t work);
2. In Glorantha, the natural laws are different and — abracadabra! — bad science becomes good, magic works, and religion is true.

Even as a lifelong infidel, this seems to me rather hard on real-world religion — as if it were “broken” and could be “fixed” by importing some natural laws and grimoires from the Lozenge. Surely, that is not right. Surely, the real world is exactly as “magical” as it needs to be, already. And if I don’t see the world in the same way religious people do, that is not because we disagree about physics and chemistry, is it?

Sometimes it can be. I worried about including the singular line you quoted for all of the reasons I outlined in the rest of the post; you are substituting your own understanding of the distinction when I speak of it. Your read of magic in Glorantha is suffering from the same problem. It is not taking the magic out and putting it back in. It does not share the necessity of a divide where people "really did this" and were declared "lunatics" on the one side, and the Great Hallucination/Metaphor/Symbolism/Whatever on the other side. It is always exactly as literal, actual, and real as it needs to be for its participants to experience it and wield it. The wonderful opportunity Glorantha gifts to us is instead the opportunity to see and experience these other perspectives with far greater ease. If you'd like, you could imagine roleplaying to be its own kind of altered state.

[Nick Brooke]

Black Elf “adoption ritual” inspiration?

 

[mfbrandi]

10 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

you are substituting your own understanding of the distinction when I speak of it

Thanks for your comments, and I am more than happy to concede that:

• I may have gotten people’s attitudes to FRP magic wrong;
• I don’t understand real-life shamanism.

However, it would seem crazy to apologise for saying that IRL shamans can tell the difference between:

• on the one hand, (what I would recognise as) murder and mutilation;
• and on the other, their own rituals (however ill-equipped I am to understand them).

At this point, I should definitely shut up.

[mfbrandi]

10 hours ago, soltakss said:

So, I don't see why humans joining Aldrya need to undergo a rebirth ceremony to become an Elf.

I am not demanding it, it is just that when David said:

On 12/19/2022 at 9:58 AM, David Scott said:

Initiation into the cult of Aldrya is not a casual event for a non-elf, just follow this 16 step plan detailed in the upcoming cults book

… and went on to give the 16-point plan which included being reborn as an elf, I took it he was speaking from advance knowledge of forthcoming official material. He did not state it there, but I assumed that the successful initiate would lose their beast rune and gain a plant rune. If I have any of that wrong, my apologies to all concerned.

[David Scott]

You could always create an elf adventurer using the Bestiary and say you were once a human. No need to get into the whole metamorphosis thing. In game is a little more complex admittedly, but if a player want's to do it, and their adventurer has all the prerequisites, I'd have no problem with it. The unspeakable crime is likely to be a problem if discovered though. 

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

The unspeakable crime is likely to be a problem if discovered though. 

I really handwave that of as being an Agatha Harkness "atrocity" rather than a massacre of innocents or other unpleasantness.

 

[Brian Duguid]

2 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Black Elf “adoption ritual” inspiration?

 

That one is already in hand, although nothing the discomfort this discussion has caused, I'm looking at describing two alternative outsider initiation rites for my planned black elf book. 😉. 

[Ormi Phengaria]

To comment on the topic at large, I'm not entirely sure I like the straightforward shamanic analogy for humans-in-Aldrya. On the one hand, there are elements in this which are assuredly appropriate, as "forest consciousness" may naturally have its most direct route for creatures of flesh through the vastness of pixie pharmacopoeia. But on the other, the forest is precisely the place where the harder borders of ingrained human perspectives ought to be dissolving away into soft, gradual, and interpenetrating boundaries. The wood girds itself in ecotones, and intersperses groves and meadows, bare rock, streams, snags and fallen trees. Fauna give shape to canopy, understory, shrub, and herb layers, and are fed upon in turn by the dark life in the soil, which itself weaves between and around the roots of the trees, forming the medium of our wood wide web.

Ought not elf-change be something similar? I think it's possible to reduce a principle from the form runes along the lines of "you are what you imbibe." Granted, it normally may manifest only on transgenerational timescales, but it makes a distinct sort of sense to me that the Aldryami could accelerate the process to somewhere between your distant descendants and your quite immediate and calamitous rebirth. Maybe some form of death is still a necessity; humans do usually only become green in advanced stages of decomposition! But the inclusion of "Maker modalities" (as @scott-martinphrased it) in this ritual initiation is certainly strange, even if it does make me start giggling about "machine elves."

[scott-martin]

14 minutes ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

"machine elves."

Oh that is good. "We stink like melting lawn chairs, the solvents of our origin, but our vegetable fraction is ubiquitous. We burn like barbies, a mass produced cartoon in the low-bandwidth mirror of your mind. And oh oh oh how we dance."

Maybe in the new year we'll find the deep mysteries behind this sadly truncated trip report. After all we know endless obvious ways to incorporate Plant as an ally in one's practice, why should magic-drenched Glorantha be somehow poorer. 
 

[Nick Brooke]

Speaking purely for myself, I’m always tempted to reread Mythago Wood when the conversation takes an Aldryami turn. (Lavondyss is even better, but takes rather more investment. They’re both rock-solid heroquesting stories)

[Lordabdul]

On 12/29/2022 at 5:45 AM, mfbrandi said:

So on the one hand anthropocentrism is a problem …

… but on the other if the humans want to play the elf game, the vegetable people and their tree mother are jolly unsporting to make them go through such a demanding rebirth ritual. Why is that? It sounds like you are saying that humans must be allowed to take what they like from Aldryami culture and magic and that the Aldryami are not allowed to set the terms. 😉

Nope -- reread my message. I'm saying that elfs are free to join many of the Lightbringer cults, and that the human ancestor god (Grandfather Mortal / Daka Fal) can be initiated into without transforming into a human by using the "alternate version" of him (like Grandfather Baboon). So I'm saying that elfs, trolls, and maybe triolini (not sure) are possibly "forcing" this biological conversion, whereas humans don't. So humans seem much nicer about accepting non-humans than the opposite. It's possible that humans are outliers in that regard, which does say something about non-human races in Glorantha (although there are many other non-human races, I'm not going to do a thorough census of who's doing what).

But really, it's not about that -- it's about what it means to "initiate" into a cult. My original understanding was that it was about dedicating your life to a deity, and serving a temple. The first one is a personal choice, the second one is a social construct. I can imagine that some (most?) elf "temples" (groves) might be super conservative and refuse initiating non-elfs. But maybe not all. Elfs are people too, with politics and biases and whatever. This is the age-old issue of some Gloranthan material saying "X does Y" and some people interpreting that as "X always does Y" and others interpreting that as "X usually does Y".

 

On 12/29/2022 at 7:10 AM, Joerg said:

Aldrya requires that you become a plant entity, not a beast entity. Give up that dragon origin, and she will allow you in. (After all the Beast Rune is a derivation of the Dragon Rune, although a different derivation than the Dragonewt Rune.)

A forceful transition may make you a plant entity, and you might retain your man rune, but will it make you an elf? And if so, what kind of elf? Will you have an associated tree? (The one your previous self was nailed to?)

IMHO, initiating into Aldrya as a human (or non elf) you would not have the Plant Rune, and might not be able to cast half of the cult's magic. You wouldn't be as much "part of the forest" as the elfs. But that's the character's/NPC's choice. Again, it's about what it means to become an initiate of a cult.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 1/1/2023 at 12:11 AM, Lordabdul said:

Nope -- reread my message. I'm saying that elfs are free to join many of the Lightbringer cults, and that the human ancestor god (Grandfather Mortal / Daka Fal) can be initiated into without transforming into a human by using the "alternate version" of him (like Grandfather Baboon). So I'm saying that elfs, trolls, and maybe triolini (not sure) are possibly "forcing" this biological conversion, whereas humans don't. So humans seem much nicer about accepting non-humans than the opposite.

I have a very different opinion on the background (well it is what I understand, maybe not the "real intent" of the world's creators)

 

- grandfather mortal is not the human ancestor god: he is the mortal ancestor spirit: he is too ancestor of elves, trolls, etc ... I don't say "physicaly" of course, but mythically, if you are a mortal race, you have something from grandfather(or mother) mortal

- Orlanth, LM, Issaries, etc... are not [humans gods, and humans allows other races to join]. Orlanth, LM, Issaries are gods and humans and other races can join them.  Yes seven mother are humans gods and in their "open mind" they allows other races to join, but note that these humans gods were... human.

- in the same way you don't need to be a troll to join a large part of darkness cults (yes darkness, not "troll") you may join argan argar, or ZZ (even this one !) or others, and don't need to be a elf to join a large part of forest/growth cults, you may join Flamal, Voria, etc...

 

but you must be a troll to join KL

but you must be an elf to join Aldrya

 

Why ?

because KL and Aldrya cults are not just "a cult among others" they are specific in one way : they are a mix of cult of goddess and cult of ancestor.

KL is the mother (or great mother, or creator ....) of trolls

Aldrya is the mother (or great mother, or first tree ...) of elves

and it makes all the difference. You must have Aldrya as ancestor to join her. You must have KL as ancestor to join her. So there are a very very different effort for other races to join them. They must be "adopted", they must be troll or elf.

They must not only be devoted to the goddess, they must be her people, they must be.

So they have to transform.

Somewhere, it is the samewith Yelm : if you want to be a full Yelmite (aka knowing all his secrets) you must have Yelm as ancestor.

So, in my opinion, no,  humans are not nicer than others, they have just lost (if there was) a kind of "human ancestor".

 

On 1/1/2023 at 12:11 AM, Lordabdul said:

it's about what it means to "initiate" into a cult.

yes I agree. And I think there is a difference between background and game system

we have one initiate game system, describing how works rune spells and "who / what " provides what rune spells

and we have (again, just my understanding) a lot of different background using this one initiate game system.

- we have gods cults and when you are initiate, it means that you learn some secrets of your god and are able to cast some magic from your god

- we have cults of ancestor (Daka fal is just a "name" but that is not Daka fal you worship, but some ancestors) and when you are initiate, it means that you learn some secrets to cast summon / communicate / worship and use power of your ancestors. The rune spells you have are "just" spells to do that, not like gods effects to "change" others.

- we have some cult of gods+ancestor like Aldrya and KL, maybe the hunshen too (Telmor, etc...) where you are able to cast some magic from your god but, AND if you follow the shamanic path learn how to contact and invoke ancestors (even your own deity as she is your ancestor)

By the way, when I play the "initiation" to shaman secret, the entity who leads the apprentice to shaman path is the deity (KL, Aldrya, ...)   I don't know if it is my glorantha-fork or the glorantha-root but I feel it good, the character meet her mother, hear her mother, love her mother, is part of her mother

- and we have the spirit societies where I have absolutly no conviction in what I say : when you are "initiate" you learn secret to cast some magic provided by the spirit / entity but where there are less devotion and more loyalty in the relationship with the spirit (as it is only a temporal relationship, noone will welcome you once dead)

 

so in my opinion "initiate" means "i know some secret by sacrificing/sharing a part of me". So I may be initiated to sorcery, I may be initiated to manufacturing secret, I may be initiated to shamanism. As a word, or as a game design mechanism. That doesn't mean that, from a background perspective, shamanism = sorcery = cult =  manufacturing, etc...

 

On 1/1/2023 at 12:11 AM, Lordabdul said:

initiating into Aldrya as a human (or non elf) you would not have the Plant Rune, and might not be able to cast half of the cult's magic. You wouldn't be as much "part of the forest" as the elfs.

in my opinion it is possible. But not iniate into Aldrya with elf. More like a human hero (or any other race) who managed to meet Aldrya by herself, and was welcome by her. In my opinion this hero did not receive any assistance through elf cult as that makes no sense. Elves know, in their "non-flesh", how to join Aldrya, what can they know about "flesh" ?

So the question is why it is not in the backgroud.. maybe because it is a local hero cult and it is open to gm to locate it (our glorantha may vary). maybe because Aldrya never accepted it (ogmv). maybe because the hero was successful and the way he found was... the adoption ritual proposed in the rules

Edited January 2, 2023 by French Desperate WindChild
doest -> doesn't

[metcalph]

A small complication in who can join Aldrya.  I understand Elves can only join High King Elf or Elder Sister on sexual maturity.  

Quote

After birth, an
elf reaches full size within 20 years, but is not considered
mature (or capable of reproduction) until he reaches 40 or
50 years of age. These young elves (between the ages of 20
and 40 or so) are not full members of elvish society, and
often become adventurers for a time.

RuneQuest Glorantha Bestiary p17

High King Elf (Initiate Subcult)
Requirements: Upon reaching maturity and expending 1
point of POW to Aldrya, elves may join automatically. Nonelves
must join as per ordinary cults—except that failure to
pass the test means death {This was present in Elder Secrets - PHM}

Ibid p26.

Which means that starting Aldryami adventurers for the most part are ineligible to become initiates of Aldrya.  There's some ambiguity over whether Children of the Forest can become Shamans of Aldrya - Elder Secrets explicitly said they could but such language is absent in the RQGB and the usage of lay member for Children of the Forest suggests they can't.  So RAW starting humans can become Aldryami initiates and the Aldryami cannot (they can always join Yelmalio).

[Joerg]

I started wondering whether humans could initiate into Aldrya or Kyger Litor as a spirit cult or spirit society without undergoing the full ordeals.

Such a lesser initiation would not bestow the full benefits of the cults (such as e.g. the abilty to grow an elf bow) but might be far enough for fellow humans to consider such individuals as part of the Elder Race religion.

Compare Isidilian's pet cave humans worshipping the Cannon Cult and the Alchemical Transformer.

[radmonger]

On 12/31/2022 at 11:11 PM, Lordabdul said:

But really, it's not about that -- it's about what it means to "initiate" into a cult. My original understanding was that it was about dedicating your life to a deity, and serving a temple.

As I understand it, an initiate is defined by knowing the cult secrets, and so being able to cast the cult magic. The social construct is that typically requires temple attendance and some level of dedication (although not particularly  exclusive).

For example, for some rural orlanthi, their initiation ordeal will be the first time they visit a temple. And the guy from an enemy clan casting lightning at you is clearly an initiate (or higher), even if you would never normally let him in your temple.

On 12/31/2022 at 11:11 PM, Lordabdul said:

IMHO, initiating into Aldrya as a human (or non elf) you would not have the Plant Rune, and might not be able to cast half of the cult's magic.

As far as i can see, 'like an initiate, but can't cast magic' is a synonym for 'lay member'.

There could legitimately be sub cults of Aldrya, present at an Aldraya temple,  that provided only the non-plant magic. Such sub cults would then be potentially open to humans who didn't fancy the idea of being planted. but such an arrangement would only make sense in places where an elf wood was not fundamentally in conflict with the local humans.

Which I suspect implies that either the humans do not practice agriculture. Or the elves are resigned to living in a designated garden as part of a larger political system (e.g. kingdom or empire).