Classic Runequest II Chaosium could it be reprinted with a different name?

[wbcreighton]

But if the idea is using a "nostalgia" retro-clone as an introduction for new players, you will always find me strongly in the opposite camp. It is exactly the kind of operation that helps people who say that d100 is an outdated system spread their lies. And believe me, this is not a trivial problem. I say this having some knowledge about the sales of the Italian version of RuneQuest

Who is spreading the lies ? Where are they being spread and what is the actual impact ?

If the retro clone operation is a pdf and is a only of interest to a very small group of gamers, how could it possibly have the major impact that you are hinting at ? Are you suggesting it will contribute to the demise of a d100 system such as CoC or Eclipse Phase ?

[rust]

Who is spreading the lies ? Where are they being spread and what is the actual impact ?

I do not know what RosenMcStern is referring to, but I did read the argument

that d100 is an outdated system quite often, mainly from the fans of Savage

Worlds and similar newer generic systems.

[RosenMcStern]

If the retro clone operation is a pdf and is a only of interest to a very small group of gamers, how could it possibly have the major impact that you are hinting at ?

Exactly. If Glyphmaster is what you are saying here, it will be an overall benefit: it's a historical game, and you can play it to re-create the feel of what gaming was "back in the day". Good idea.

But if the forums and conventions start to fill with people who preach that "You cannot understand d100 if you have not played the historical version of RQ2", as it actually happens for OD&D in the Old School D&D Forums, then you will create the (WRONG) equation "d100 = old, musty stuff" in the minds of newcomers. I will post something more precise later.

[Al.]

mainly from the fans of Savage Worlds and similar newer generic systems.

Personal observations only but Savage Worlds

a) seems to arouse very strong feelings considering just how dull the ruleset is

has some very clever little bits to it

c) gets everything right except the core mechanic (a bit like D6 Star Wars)

[Al.]

Chaosium had freedom to use the RQ2 version of the rules in making the BGB, but they chose the RQ3 or SB5 version of almost everything. Does this tell you nothing?

It could tell us many things. I suspect that few are cut and dried and even fewer incotrovertable facts.

dissecting the "great old classic" in search of bugs benefits no one

There's truth in them there hills. And you and others of a similar disposition may wish to look away now.

I started RQing wwith RQIII and was blown away when I finally got hold of the semi-mythical RQII by how much better I liked BITS of it. I don't quite subscribe to the common(ish)ly held old farts line that where the two games differ choosing the RQII rule is always better. But not far off.

Of the changes from RQII to RQIII I'm split between the ones which i think are a step in the right direction but don't go far enough and the ones which I don't like and go too far (almost by definition I suppose.

A lot of blathering now follows, presumably you are able to take as read that its all IMMOO rather than unholy writ?

RQII CHArisma was clearly defined as Leadership. Presumably this was felt to be too limited and the label a bit unclear so it then gets broadened in RQIII to be interpersonal communication in general and gets renamed Appearance just to confuse everyone even more.

SIZ and INT move to a 2d+6 roll (tbf RQII.5 in Trollpak did this before) and gives the majority of PCs a damage bonus and Knowledge bonus to boot. So an 'average' human character does not have average scores. Brilliant.

Skills move from blocks of 5% to a much more granular 1%. Which is lovely but the rules for Specials and Criticals work on dividing by 5 (or multiple thereof) which is easy peasy with skills in blocks of 5. Arguments about the state of maths education or numeracy 'in my day' and 'bloody discalcic kids of today' to one side. Why make a rule ANY harder to apply on the spur? Its not just a factor of brains numbed by hours of play its adding something which can intefere with suspension of disbelief when its not needed.

Skills lose some of the very silly specific names (Find Healing Plants, Find Cattle Fodder and Find Plants with 5 leaves, woody stems and first discovered by a bloke called Geoff, etc) and are rolled into more useful meta skills (For example Plant Lore for the above Devise for Know Locks, Pick Locks and Set/Repair/Design/Oil Lightly Traps) which is more fun game wise and makes a bit of sense to boot, and this could have gone further a la Elric!'s Natural World and Magic World's (Cultural) Lore skills, maybe with Physical World to cover RQIII Mineral Lore and World Lore (or RQII Know Rock, identify Rock, Understand Rock, Like Rock skills)

Even worse some very specific skills remain such as Kuschille Horse Archery. Why would I spend time/money training this when I could put the points into Ride and/or Bow Attack and get the same result and have those skills at a higher level for other tests?

Then the 'all Melee weapons in same class default to half the highest' rule doesn't get expanded logically to 'all Melee weapons default to half the highest' (and by extension 'all Missile weapons default to half the highest') it just gets dropped.

Defense gets dropped (which is nice as the 's' offends mine eye, even if some would argue that its grammatically correct even in UK English). Dodge is a nice replacement rule and with the (seemingly) univeral houserule that a successful dodge downgrades an attack by one step, a special by two and so on. But 'Block' is still misnamed 'Parry' so the Dodge rules which could just have been a maneuvere called Parry require an entirely seperate skill. Which is reduced by Enc.

Different types of Special are reduced purely to Impale for um impaling weapons. Which now do (about) the same as old edged ('slashing' which is a name they wisely dropped it being UK slang at least for urinating).

The Armour chart does away with the 'When is Scalemaille not Scalemaille' question but boosts AP levels significantly (presumably to offset the 'everyone has +d4 db' problem) and doesn't differentiate between Half Plate as worn in the ancient world and Full Plate as worn by Englisgh Kunigits. Which seems daft considering some of the market generic RQ seemed to be aiming for

The Bestiary gives us Halflings. Fair enough know your potential market. But the rules are a worse fit for them than just porting over the splat/crunch for Ducks (which fit brilliantly btw) and just writing a new bit of fluff(feathers). Bizarrely though the very Glorantha-specific mini-Ents/Ent-wife Elf is the only one. Which means that a generic set of rules has nothing which comes remotely close to letting players/GMs run Sidhe/Tolkien Elfs/Melnibonean Eldren/D&D Elves.

Then Dwarves keep reduced SIZ roll despite the fact that RQIII now purely defines SIZ as mass.

The RQIII quick experience system is rather better than the old RQII appendices but the detailed one is an exercise in micro-management.

And rest. You'll notice that I didn't even mention Fatigue or why on (flat)earth doesn't everyone start with their Int worth of spells (or spell points) after all no one gets to have a randome number of hit points or damage bonus up to a limit imposed by their stats.

[lawrence.whitaker]

Well i would still play it in Glorantha , but realistically one can't produce the book with Gloranthan references unless Issaries INC. allows it! i believe it is Issaries INc. correct me if i am wrong on who owns glorantha!

RuneQuest and Glorantha are both trademarks owned by Issaries Inc. Nothing using trademarks can be published without consent from Issaries.

Issaries has two licensees: Moon Design (publishers of HeroQuest) and Mongoose (publishers of RQII). Both are licensed to produce works set in Glorantha. Third Age for Moon Design and Second Age for Mongoose.

Game systems themselves cannot be trademarked or copyrighted so there's nothing to prevent a retroclone of Chaosium RQ2 from being developed as is the case with Glyphmaster; however it cannot carry any specifically Gloranthan content; nor can the text of the original rules be used verbatim. This means Glyphmaster will need the text of RQ2 to be rewritten in its entirety although the concepts and systems used can be replicated mechanically. There is, I think, a question mark over some of the Gloranthan monsters, such as dragonewts. These appeared in the Mongoose RQI SRD, so, if Glyphmaster is based on this SRD (but uses completely different mechanics, or variants of the SRD's mechanics - which it is very possible to do) then, in theory, Gloranthan creatures can be used. However it is obviously worth checking with Issaries, Moon and Mongoose just to check that no IP or trademarks are being infringed.

Is it worthwhile? That depends wholly on your point of view. If you adore Chaosium RQ and can't afford to buy a copy of it on eBay, but have a group of players who would like that ruleset for themselves, then yes. If you're new to RQ in any form, or looking to try it out, then maybe: there are alternatives such as BRP quickstart, OpenQuest and MRQII. Will Glyphmaster allow you to take the Gloranthan Classics and play them As Is? Sure - although BRP, OpenQuest and MRQII will allow you to do as well, and very enjoyably, although there'll be some conversion work needed.

What made Chaosium RQ2 so wonderful was its atmosphere and presentation. Glyphmaster may capture that. Having Glorantha as the tied setting helped RQ2 but, honestly, its very easy to divorce it from the rules and use RQ2 wherever you like. Many did and many still do.

I don't think there are any right or wrongs here; just personal preferences. My system of choice, for obvious reasons, is MRQII, but that won't stop me getting, and enjoying, Glyphmaster when it appears (just as I have several editions of BRP and OpenQuest). I say good luck to the Glyphmaster team.

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Thanks, Lawrence, although I would hesitate to call us a "team"! You're correct in all points above, and we're being particular about not infringing copyright.

Rosen, in what particular way do you find RQ2 an outdated system?

[RosenMcStern]

In the way that I explained above: Chaosium could use RQ2 (its second best success after Call of Cthulhu) as the foundation for BRP. It did not, preferring to merge RQ3 and SB5. All of you tried to avoid this simple fact in your replies, but it is there, plain and simple: the publisher appears to think those other iterations of the system are better. Nuff said.

And honestly, do you really think that Chaosium RQ2 is better than the new Mongoose RQII? The combat system is light years ahead, and the magic system finally got rid of the "Pay POW for divine spell, and you only have one use of it, and you might also fail the MP vs. MP resistance roll" nonsense that 90% of us houseruled somehow. We stopped using that rule in 1994, and I can remember almost a whole issue of TotRM devoted to fixing that problem with Divine Magic.

Another very important point: in RQ2/3 your divine magic depended on how much points you permanently marked off your POW characteristic on your character sheet. In MRQ2, and partially in BRP if you use Allegiance, finally you have a score on your sheet that actually says how much you believe in your god - which is not the same as how many points of POW you sacrificed, as you actually have to roleplay it! And it determines how powerful your magic is. Don't you think that, in a game that is 70% about religion, this detail is non-trivial, and that the old versions have sorely lacked something similar for 30 years?

That said, the existence of Glyphmaster poses no threat to anything. The SRD is free to use. It is your project, and it takes away your time, not someone else's. Just point out it is a "vintage" game for grognards.

Edited November 19, 2010 by RosenMcStern

[wbcreighton]

In the way that I explained above: Chaosium could use RQ2 (its second best success after Call of Cthulhu) as the foundation for BRP. It did not, preferring to merge RQ3 and SB5. All of you tried to avoid this simple fact in your replies, but it is there, plain and simple: the publisher appears to think those other iterations of the system are better. Nuff said.

I don't think anyone here is avoiding facts. When you say that the publisher appears to think those other iterations of the system are better you are espousing an opinion.

I would be curious how much direction from Chaosium Jason actually received as to which rules were included. He says in the Afterword that his first BRP game was SB1 and he found the system and setting to be perfectly fused.

[wbcreighton]

That said, the existence of Glyphmaster poses no threat to anything. It is your project, and it takes away your time, not someone else's. Just point out it is a "vintage" game for grognards.

Maybe the writers will point out it is a fun game using mechanics that formed the foundation of the BRP games that followed.

Glyphmaster does require the writers time, but it also seems to be taking up some of your time that would be better spent writing more excellent BRP products ! So get to it.

[NickMiddleton]

As far as I recall from discussions with Jason before, during and after the BRP play test, the core of BGB BRP is synthesis of Stormbringer 5th edition and Call of Cthulhu 6th edition, and it's primary inspiration is Worlds of Wonder. Optional rules are taken / adapted from pretty much the entirety of Chaosium's BRP catalogue of games, but that trinity is clearly the core inspiration, not (directly) RQII OR RQIII.

It is true that, bar the Super Power defence power I can't think of a single exclusively RQII feature that made it in to BGB BRP, but equally, beyond the optional Fatigue system, I can't think of an exclusively RQIII feature either (LHP, Skill categories, stacking specials and crits etc are all features of BRP games besides RQIII). I think that does suggest that the general consensus of the editors, writers and play testers at the time anyway was that the book was NOT deficient for being less like RQII... we certainly didn't argue about it in the play test as far as I recall.

*shrug* As I have said before, I was a vehemently anti-RQIII grognard (at the tender age of 17!) in 1984 but once I finally did mature and properly explored RQIII in the late 80's I switched and I can't see any reasons now to play RQII - RQIII (or BGB BRP with the right options and add ons to emulate everything I like about RQIII if I'm after that feel) works fine for me and most of my RQ-aware acquaintances. I'm sure I'll read Glyphmaster, but it's unlikely to appeal to me personally.

Cheers,

Nick

[dragonewt]

Personal observations only but Savage Worlds

a) seems to arouse very strong feelings considering just how dull the ruleset is

has some very clever little bits to it

c) gets everything right except the core mechanic (a bit like D6 Star Wars)

If you make people feel like they have achieved something through a simple mechanism and made the experience perceived to be stimulating, then you win peoples' favour. Call me judgmental. I wonder if this is covered by a Dunning-Kruger study somewhere.

Edited November 19, 2010 by dragonewt

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Well, Rosen, I'm somewhat surprised at your hostility to this idea. "Nuff said" when applied to your personal conjecture as to why choices were made by Jason in the BRP is not really "nuff", and as has been pointed out there were many things which did not make it into the BGB, for reasons we might guess at but don't really know. I get that you are somehow unhappy about the idea of an RQ2 retro-clone, but surely there are more important things in life to worry about.

I can accept that you believe MRQII to have a light years better combat system, that is your opinion - although again, I'd like some examples, as have been given by people who have pointed out which bits of RQ2 they prefer. I say that because I'm interested, not to be snarky, because I have not read the MRQII rules which by all accounts seem excellent. But there is really no comparison between MRQ2 and Glyphmaster, so I don't see the point you're trying to make in that regard. If anything, people were asking why not just use BRP to emulate RQ2. Again, I can accept that you don't like the idea of RQ2 rune magic, fine. I do. But given the many detailed and reasoned dissections of RQ2 vs. other D100-based games systems which I have read, those two exhibits of RQ2's alleged obsolescence are pretty shaky.

We're talking about game systems here, and not washing machines. There is no way to define a system as intrinsically "better", unless it be by popularity. In which case, we should all be playing some variety of d20, right? I don't believe RQ2 is the be-all and end-all of D100 roleplaying, even though I do believe that D100 is the be-all and end-all of roleplaying.

Finally, and this really is my final word on the matter because I prefer to waste my time on fun projects rather than pointless internet arguments, I find the use of grognards in this respect rather offensive. I'm not sure if you have much to do with the Traveller community, but if you do you should know the kind of people the term applies to. I fail to see how you can equate that kind of attitude with people who would like to play the Gloranthan Classics RAW.

[frogspawner]

Well, Rosen, I'm somewhat surprised at your hostility to this idea.

On the other hand, I'm not surprised at all. Seems like Rosen's standard procedure to me...

[RosenMcStern]

I just hope you folks are right and it is a matter of my attitude. But if it is not, then the consequences might be more relevant than you think. Forgive me this arrogant statement, but I do not publish fan projects any more, and I have a "slightly" higher point of observation than most of you. And if I am afraid that presenting Glyphmaster as an introductory ruleset instead of a vintage game constitutes a threat, I have damn good reasons to be!

[wbcreighton]

I just hope you folks are right and it is a matter of my attitude. But if it is not, then the consequences might be more relevant than you think. Forgive me this arrogant statement, but I do not publish fan projects any more, and I have a "slightly" higher point of observation than most of you. And if I am afraid that presenting Glyphmaster as an introductory ruleset instead of a vintage game constitutes a threat, I have damn good reasons to be!

I think not publishing fan projects is a great business decision on your part. It is important for you to keep the quality of your products at the highest possible standards. I think the glut of 3rd rate d20 products was the downfall DnD 3. Now when is BRP Mecha going to be ready ?

As you previously mentioned pdfs represent a very small percentage of rpg sales, and since I don't think you will elaborate on the reasons you keep hinting at, I'll end my discussion with your own quote:

"That said, the existence of Glyphmaster poses no threat to anything."

[RosenMcStern]

, and since I don't think you will elaborate on the reasons you keep hinting at

As a matter of fact, Rust has already explained them clearly enough. I could provide dozens more examples, but it would not be very interesting. It is just a matter of perceiving (or not perceiving) the relevance of such comments. And no amount of debates here will alter anyone's perception.

[frogspawner]

I agree there should be a generic setting, as suggested over on that other board's thread:

Here's an idea for the setting: a city built out of ancient ruins on a river bordering a vast expanse of plains...

Not keen on the name 'GlyphMaster' though. How about naming it after the setting? For which I suggest "Arqueuetu".

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Well, Glyphmaster is just a working title. It was just too much hassle to keep typing "RuneQuest 2 Retro-Clone"!

At the moment this is just a one-off project, a setting-independent rule set. It might spawn its own setting and adventures one day, but there are no plans that I know of at this stage.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Vile

[frogspawner]

Well, Glyphmaster is just a working title. It was just too much hassle to keep typing "RuneQuest 2 Retro-Clone"!

At the moment this is just a one-off project, a setting-independent rule set.

Well, my suggested name wasn't entirely serious (but not entirely a joke either). I hope 'Arqueuetu' isn't too unpronounceable...

And to save your typing it could be abbreviated to just 'ARQ'.

More seriously, I suspect a big part of the attraction of RQ2 were the references to the world it was set in. Just cutting these might leave it a bit soul-less, but generic-izing them could be difficult... but an interesting challenge! How are you doing it?

[Guest Vile Traveller]

We originally thought this would be tricky, too, until we started work on it. It turns out that the original rulebook has very few overt references to Glorantha other than in the potted history at the front of the book and in the cult descriptions - clearly we have to leave those out, but as Glyphmaster is intended to be used with the reprints this is not a problem. The Mongoose SRD contains a surprisingly complete selection of Gloranthan terms like monsters, spells and concepts, so we don't have to change many names at all. Remember that an SRD is mainly a collection of otherwise copyrighted words which you can use under the OGL. So, the flavour of the rules will be very much the same as the original. There are klanth-wielding dragonewts, although we can't call them "beaked dragonewts". You have to remember that much of the background didn't really become defined until Cults of Prax and the later supplements, as well as Wyrms Footnotes.

We are completely re-writing the entire text, but the actual rules-in-play will be identical to RQ2, the whole point being that it can be used to run the Gloranthan Classics out-of-the box without any extra work by GM or players. We are incorporating the official errata from the front and back inside covers, and ironing out one or two inconsistencies (like tailed priest dragonewts not having a "tail" hit location). We're also considering some small tidying up of the layout and chapter organisation to make the book flow more logically, but that will be very limited, such as incorporating the appendices in the appropriate sections of the rules. We are very firm about not adding any house rules or tweaks (which tends to happen in retro-clones), because that would defeat the object of the exercise.

Finally, if you know anyone who would be willing to donate a top-notch piece of colour art for the cover, point them our way!

Yes. My book has seen some use.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Vile

[RosenMcStern]

Ask Dario if he has some unused color artwork. Probably he does. Also, I would find Simon Bray's original cover for OpenQuest rather appropriate for Glyphmaster. As OpenQuest has a new cover made by Jon Hodgson, you could ask Simon if you can use that one.

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Cheers, I'll follow up on that!

[Blackfoot]

Ummm .. I don't have much interest personally, I have a copy of the book, but the point of why they are doing it is kinda being missed.

The project is just to make a working copy of the system rules available to players when you are running a RQ II game since they are difficult to come by.

Edited November 21, 2010 by Blackfoot

[Daxos232]

After reading all the posts I can say I'm interested in GlyphMaster, I would like to know what RQ was like back in the day. However I don't think I would use the system extensively, its the age and history of the system that draws me, kind of like when I picked up the AD&D core books. I've never used them for gameplay(some of the rules were ridiculously complicated to me) but they are good reads.

Edited November 21, 2010 by Daxos232