Types of RuneQuest Magic

[Jeff]

In RuneQuest there are three nearly universal approaches to magic, as well as several less common and rare magic systems. The following are nearly universal:

Spirit Magic: Nearly universal, this is the use of spirits to affect the mundane world - healing, blessings, curses, etc. The commonest magic out there and the cheapest to use.  

Rune Magic: Also nearly universal, this is wielding the power of a god by create a tie between yourself and the god. The most powerful magic out there, but requires that you maintain that link through a cult.  

Summoning, Commanding, and Binding Spirits: Not really a magic system per se, but worth calling out as an approach of doing magical things. With the sacrifice of 2 or 3 points of POW, you can create a matrix that can house a spirit that can be a magic point reserve, a source of spirit magic spells, or might be something that can be released to do things in the mundane world. Don't underestimate this! 

Less common:
Sorcery: Less widespread and largely confined to the Malkioni, Kralori, Fonritans, and (probably) East Islanders. Sorcerers know that the order of the universe is subject to rigorous metaphysic laws that can be commanded by the magic user. Potentially VERY powerful and flexible, but requires time, study, and copious magic points to be useful. Dwarf maker magic is similar to sorcery, but is not the same.  

Rare:
Dragon Magic: Found only in Dragon Pass, Kralorela, and Maniria. This magic requires spiritual development to be able to draw upon the Infinite and the Nothing to transform reality.  

Illumination: Not really a magic system per se, but something that allows magic systems to be freed of some of their limitations. Found mainly in the Lunar Empire and Kralorela.
 

Lunar Magic: Illuminated priests of the Lunar Way and associated gods can learn this strange magic that lets them manipulate spirit magic in very powerful ways.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Jeff

[Squaredeal Sten]

Up until now I had thought lunar magic was a combination of spirit magic and sorcery.  Is there something truly unique about it? 

If so can you disclose it, or should we wait for a future Pelorian / Lunar homeland book, or will it be revealed in the cults book you already have in process?

[Nick Brooke]

Use the version found in the Red Goddess’s cult in the Red Box (RQ3’s Gods of Glorantha, 1986) until a RQG version comes out. Lunar magicians can manipulate spirit magic spells using sorcery-like skills. There’s an example in Crimson King.

[Shiningbrow]

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

as well as several less common

What would be others within the 'several' here? Does Mostali magic figure in here, or is that considered part of sorcery?

[metcalph]

3 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

What would be others within the 'several' here? Does Mostali magic figure in here, or is that considered part of sorcery?

In a later part of the post, you are responding to:

Quote

Sorcery: [...] Dwarf maker magic is similar to sorcery, but is not the same.  

 

[Shiningbrow]

23 hours ago, metcalph said:

In a later part of the post, you are responding to:

 

And yet, it was specifically posted under the sorcery sub-heading....

I hope you can see why people would be confused by it's location.

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 1/11/2023 at 1:48 AM, Jeff said:

curses

that is something interesting but , in my opinion, not really / enough explored in the spirit magic.

Up to gm maybe, but some spell examples would be interesting. A curse is not for a single target during 2 minutes . it may be for more

So how can we modelize it, from a rqg rules perspective ? What is the cost to give beard to the other clan's babies ? How can I render infertile the land / herd / bloodline ? etc... and how to clear them ?

 

We have a large list of spells to an adventurer as a single person exploring the world (alone or in a group) but few(nothing ?) about curse in spirit magic

 

Or is it part of the summon / command spirit magic ?

 

by the way I like the concept to separate rules systems (rune magic, spirit magic and sorcery; maybe draconic for non dragon's kin ? don't know) and the "background" perspective (summoning spirit or lunar magic is something different than casting a spell for a gloranthan )

 

And there is heroquest too in the list, I believe (I would say it is magic too, right ?)

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 1/12/2023 at 5:11 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

......

Up to gm maybe, but some spell examples would be interesting. A curse is not for a single target during 2 minutes . it may be for more

So how can we modelize it, from a rqg rules perspective ? What is the cost to give beard to the other clan's babies ? How can I render infertile the land / herd / bloodline ? etc... and how to clear them ?

We have a large list of spells to an adventurer as a single person exploring the world (alone or in a group) but few(nothing ?) about curse in spirit magic.

I'm just speculating, but it seems to me  that a curse has three key characteristics: 

It is magic you do not like, the opposite of  a blessing,

It is contingent: in most stories involving cyrses when you do or use x, then Y will happen.  For example when you use a sword it will break in your hand.  Or when you have a son you will cause his death.  The only exception that comes to mind is Joe Btzpflk in the Little Abner cartoons.

And it is persistent.  It may not last forever but it will probably last for years, will certainly last well after you are very tired of it.  If it is a curse for a one time event, like Theseus' curse  killing his son, then it can lie in wait for a long time.  It is like fate.

So translating it into Runequest mechanics. It appears to me that it has Extension as one of its components.  

The contingent part is somethig I cannot match to any of the spells in the rules except to one of the aspects of enchantment: you can make an enchanted item which functions on a contingency, if I recall correctly.

Because both of those ( extension. and Enchantment)   involve large Investments of POWer, I don't see a curse as something a player character will use in the course of play, except as a Divine Intervention.  But NPCs, as an adventure hook, seem very likely users.  Maybe a sorceror, since  sorcery seems to involve more long term actions.  

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So translating it into Runequest mechanics. It appears to me that it has Extension as one of its components. 

yes I would understand that but Jeff put curses in the spirit magic part. That makes sense with the background, of course shaman can curse... but how ? !

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

yes I would understand that but Jeff put curses in the spirit magic part. That makes sense with the background, of course shaman can curse... but how ? !

Covert spirit possession.  The spirit resides in you and every now and then casts a spirit magic spell which makes life difficult for you.  

• You are working on an intricate lock and suddenly you are befuddled.
• Someone jostles your drink and the spirit casts fanaticism.
• You whip out your sword only to find it has been dullbladed.
• You have difficulty lighting fires.
• You can't run very fast.

[Squaredeal Sten]

19 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

yes I would understand that but Jeff put curses in the spirit magic part. That makes sense with the background, of course shaman can curse... but how ? !

Perhaps through a very powerful spirit, one that approaches minor god status like Cacoemon? 

Or a spirit of disease if disease is the curse.

Maybe souring your neighbor's milk (or,  ultimate evil, their wine) is a minor application of disease spirits.   But that association  makes more sense in  a RW post-Pasteur context than in a bronze age context.

Maybe the thought is that the shaman sics a spirit on you and if follows you around and gives bad dice rolls.  But I don't see how that fits with the rest of spirit magic as presented in these rules.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling

[Squaredeal Sten]

8 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Covert spirit possession.  The spirit resides in you and every now and then casts a spirit magic spell which makes life difficult for you.  

• You are working on an intricate lock and suddenly you are befuddled.
• Someone jostles your drink and the spirit casts fanaticism.
• You whip out your sword only to find it has been dullbladed.
• You have difficulty lighting fires.
• You can't run very fast.

I like the idea!  But I don't see how we get from that to making all the babies grow beards.

 

[radmonger]

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

But I don't see how we get from that to making all the babies grow beards.

Covert possession of the community wyter by a mischievous aspect of Eurmal, or maybe a confused aspect of Lhankor Mhy. Likely beyond the ability of any shaman to resolve directly; sounds like grounds for a hero quest.

 

 

[Shiningbrow]

Firstly, I'm not sure that RL versions of curses may apply in such a magic rich environment such as Glorantha. Not that they couldn't, but that having such access to magic would change the playing field - and game.

Secondly, if you defy Humakt, then your straight swords will bend and be unusable. how does that happen, mechanically? Is Humakt personally watching each and every one of his disciples, and when the time comes, he personally bends the sword? Presumably not. Spirit of Reprisal? Possible - but that would also imply that the spirit is following the person around, and that a shaman could see them, and even attack them and do other things...

Thirdly, I personally don't buy the idea that either the RQG or RBoM contains the definitive list of all Spirit Magic spells, thus leaving open the possibility of having some spirit magic that will sour the milk...

Fourthly, I do think the covert possession idea can work, but with a far wider range of spirits, with broader abilities - maybe including putting beards on babies. Apparently Greg was discussing this idea where spirit possession could give one abilities, such as shape-shifting. Not much of a jump to just putting the hair on a bit of the body.

However, GM plot of a long-term curse that the PC is going to have to face... or the shorter term one cast on a community... not so sure. I presume there are curses, and they'd work similar to Rune magic, given that there are blessings from the godd(esse)s upon the various animals and flora. Greater spirits of just generally pissing people off? Or a much larger range of disease spirits?

 

[Soccercalle]

A curse is probably something that a lot of magicians can use. If it is a shaman it probably involves a spirit. But a wizard or a rune priest would probably as well being able to curse someone. I think that the "spirits of reprisal" is a king of curse on those who breaks the laws of their cult/gods.

I don´t think curses is a magic system by itself. But something broader, like healing.

[French Desperate WindChild]

yep before @Jeff's post I followed the way of spirits but my understanding of Jeff misundertood me. I concluded that's curse is only spirit magic but ... I was wrong, except if healing is only spirit magic too 😕

so apologizes my misunderstood... the -only me- confusing words :

On 1/11/2023 at 1:48 AM, Jeff said:

Spirit Magic: Nearly universal, this is the use of spirits to affect the mundane world - healing, blessings, curses, etc.

 

however we don't have specific rules, but it is easy (for me) to imagine some spirit able to provide anything to their ... "patients"

[SDLeary]

12 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Fourthly, I do think the covert possession idea can work, but with a far wider range of spirits, with broader abilities - maybe including putting beards on babies. Apparently Greg was discussing this idea where spirit possession could give one abilities, such as shape-shifting. Not much of a jump to just putting the hair on a bit of the body.

Sounds like Greg was was talking about Invocation, calling the spirit into ones self, presumably to utilize abilities; as opposed to Evocation which is represented by the normal summoning rules.

Incorporating something like this into the rules would open up roleplaying a bit more when "hunting" for spirits. More opportunity to bargain with them, make pacts, and so on if you can call them into you and use their abilities, at least for a bit. 

SDLeary

[davecake]

On 1/12/2023 at 7:11 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

A curse is not for a single target during 2 minutes

If it is using Spirit Magic it is - I wouldn't read to much into the use of the word. Using the word to mean a short term malign magic is fine. 

But if you want longer term curses, they can be from sorcery (very long term spell effects), divine power (the results of many so-called Spirits of Retribution (some of which are not spirits at all, but divine actions) are very much like classic curses), or other magic, especially the long term effects of various spirits, either through the use of Spirit powers directly or covert possession. I think @metcalphis quite right about this being a common form of curse on a person, and I think you also get spirit bindings (or analogous items that attract or tie a spirit to the area, like the ones Mallia worshippers use to spread disease) as a common form of curse. This is the classic idea of a witch type creating a curse object and hiding it where it curses the target. It seems  like one that would work fine with RQG. 

We don't need special extra rules for all this. Most of it is already there in the spirit rules. And summoning spirits, as Jeff explicitly points out, can be done by Spirit magicians, Rune magicians, or sorcerers - and yes, probably mystics too). For a LOT of ideas about how to make interesting magic effects, you either don't need new rules, or just need minor additions such as new spells, you mostly just need new types of spirit constructed using the existing rules. 

The existing rules say:

Spirits can have Curse as a power - examples include the ability to sour milk, spoil food, blunt tools, etc. Pretty much most classic minor curses. Could be from a hostile free spirit (eg if you offend a spirit of place), a spirit servant of a magician, a spirit bound in a cursed object, or a covertly possessing spirit. Of course they could also just cast spirit magic at inopportune times. 

Covert possession by spirits as a form of curse - that is exactly what a Passion spirit is (Bestiary pg 166). 

19 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Apparently Greg was discussing this idea where spirit possession could give one abilities, such as shape-shifting.

Spirits that change the shape of the host with are explicitly mentioned in the Bestiary, pg 167. 

Affect Environment or Control (which allows control over incomplete creatures) could be other forms of curse - affect environment could make it so that those effected always feel cold, or a sense of foreboding, or find it hard to things, or always are accompanied by a horrible smell. Control could lead to constant problems with rats, or fleas, or dogs to always be hostile. Classic curse stuff. 

spirits can obviously cause disease, and even have a Chaotic feature (depending on the feature, it could either be used directly, or applied as a curse to anyone it possesses)

And by extension, almost anything possible to a Spirit of Reprisal is possible to other spirits. 

So that is a pretty huge range of curses. 

And add a few extra special magics, and you get even more. For example, the Create Foe-Curser spell curses those who trigger it with a curse that can last until the next Sacred Time (if not dispelled). It's not hard to imagine a few such specialist spells for other curses. 

 

 

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Spirits that change the shape of the host with are explicitly mentioned in the Bestiary, pg 167. 

True, but I was thinking it wasn't as a possession situation, or at best covert, so that the person gets a shapechange as and when they want, not because they've been taken over by the spirit. And, thus, the change ends when the person wants it to end.

 

Legend has a nice (better) write-up on this category...