heroquest: spending "time" to learn something in the god plane.

[French Desperate WindChild]

I have no good title so...

so let see my "use case"

 

Jojo is heroquesting for his Orlanth initiation. Then he meet the second son to hear his "lesson".

but Jojo wants to learn more, for a long "time". For example he wants to learn perfectly stormspeech (90%), language he doesn't know or so few before... or anything that the second son masters and accepts to share.

 

as a GM what will you do ?

- Jojo thinks he learnt the stormspeech but in reality he get +1d6% (or 0)

- Jojo really learnt the stormspeech and obtain 90%

- Jojo is "ejected" from the god plane because it is not the template of the quest

- something else ?

would you apply some dice rolls / resistance / etc... ?

 

and what impact in mundane world, is his quest longer than others ?

 

because, at the end of the day, if there is not something limiting the quester, we may imagine that a character may start the quest with few skills (not an adult) and finish it with all the skills (and maybe some other stats) required to become a priest or a runelord ?

 

[kalidor]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I have no good title so...

so let see my "use case"

 

Jojo is heroquesting for his Orlanth initiation. Then he meet the second son to hear his "lesson".

but Jojo wants to learn more, for a long "time". For example he wants to learn perfectly stormspeech (90%), language he doesn't know or so few before... or anything that the second son masters and accepts to share.

 

as a GM what will you do ?

- Jojo thinks he learnt the stormspeech but in reality he get +1d6% (or 0)

- Jojo really learnt the stormspeech and obtain 90%

- Jojo is "ejected" from the god plane because it is not the template of the quest

- something else ?

would you apply some dice rolls / resistance / etc... ?

 

and what impact in mundane world, is his quest longer than others ?

 

because, at the end of the day, if there is not something limiting the quester, we may imagine that a character may start the quest with few skills (not an adult) and finish it with all the skills (and maybe some other stats) required to become a priest or a runelord ?

 

Without heroquest mechanics we don't know. Maybe after summer we will finally get those. 

[Hteph]

In absence of the rules set I would say that a Heroquest don't work that way, you can't spend more time learning someting (unless you are Lankhor Mhy etc I guess). I'm not even sure you can muster the want to stay and learn (at least not until you are at a level to start forging your own paths over there). It would be like stopping a canoe in the middle of a fast running river ... or something.

 

But this is just my opinion

[Eff]

I would ask the player what they wanted from this request, what their intent was. How I play it *in general* is that time is stretchy and normally long periods can pass on the Otherside without much time at all passing on This Side, because that's a very basic motif for spending time in fairyland or other supernatural worlds, and doing the Taro Urashima or Rip Van Winkle thing without any context or setup first is pointless. So if their answer is "I want to speedrun becoming a Rune Lord or Rune Priest", that's not a thing we can discuss entirely in the context of the game and we need to zoom out and talk about why they want to speedrun it and whether that's a good idea, what the consequences of it might be. And if their answer is "I want to know what happens if I do this," then that's potentially interesting, I certainly don't know, not even in my own mind, what the consequences would be, so I might well say, "I need time to prepare what this interaction should be like mechanically, so if you want to go ahead and do this, your character's interactions stop right there and are held until next session." Or maybe I have a general sense of what these kind of interactions should be like in mechanical terms and I say, "Go ahead and roll it." 

And then from the mechanical interaction, whatever shape that takes, there are obviously consequences to this. It's not a normal activity, and there's clearly some reason why that's the case. Maybe what happens is that learning from the Second Son doesn't increase your skills beyond a normal training roll, it just moves them around and you've had other things drained to make you eloquent in Stormspeech, because you've forgotten some things of the paltry material world. That's an interesting potential consequence! Or maybe things you learn from demigods directly aren't stable in your head and the skill fluctuates somehow. Or maybe I think that this isn't going to go anywhere interesting with the consequences and the player agrees and we drop it, the Second Son says, "I have a life, you know," and we move on. 

[Shiningbrow]

Option A.

Happens in RL dreams all the time... Happens in RL spirit quests, meditations, trances, etc as well.

Happens in Heroquests when someone calls upon a Rune to make something happen as well.

[soltakss]

20 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Jojo is heroquesting for his Orlanth initiation. Then he meet the second son to hear his "lesson".

but Jojo wants to learn more, for a long "time". For example he wants to learn perfectly stormspeech (90%), language he doesn't know or so few before... or anything that the second son masters and accepts to share.

The benefits of a HeroQuest depend on the magical power of the HeroQuest. So, an Initiation HeroQuest is generally a low-power one and, therefore, gives low benefits. If an Adventurer wants more/better benefits then they need to do a more powerful HeroQuest. One example is the children of a Sartar King to took terrible geases and gained terrible gifts, they effectively increased the power level of their Initiation HeroQuest.

20 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

as a GM what will you do ?

- Jojo thinks he learnt the stormspeech but in reality he get +1d6% (or 0)

 

No, as the Adventurer would have clearly framed the results that we wants from the HeroQuest. Just giving him a minor gain defeats the whole point of the HeroQuest. I would make the HeroQuest more powerful/difficult to gain the extra benefit.

 

20 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

as a GM what will you do ?

- Jojo really learnt the stormspeech and obtain 90%

Probably, yes, I would do this. However, I would make the HeroQuest harder, with life-threatening danger and a way to tie Jojo more closely to Orlanth. Perhaps Jojo gains a Orlanth Passion at 90%, or gains a Storm-related Geas. Did he befriend some Wind Children to become closer to the Storm Rune? Did he gain revelations through the Storm Rune?

 

20 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

as a GM what will you do ?

- Jojo is "ejected" from the god plane because it is not the template of the quest

No, never, I never do that, as, to me, it is a cop-out. 

If a HeroQuest changes so that it is not in the usual template then you are simply on a different HeroQuest, albeit one you don't know or are not familiar with.

 

20 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

as a GM what will you do ?

- something else ?

Jojo could gamble a skill to gain the Stormspeech 90%. Maybe Jojo gambles knowledge of Heortling instead, so losing the gamble means losing knowledge of how to speak own language. That way, there is a definite threat/danger with very real consequences for failure.

 

20 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

as a GM what will you do ?

would you apply some dice rolls / resistance / etc... ?

Absolutely, yes.

• Make Jojo prove knowledge of the Storm Rune
• Have Jojo gamble Speak Own Language to gain Stormspeech, maybe roll Speak Own language and a Normal success gives Jojo Stormspeech 50%, a Special success gives Stormspeech 75% and a Critical success gives Jojo Stormspeech 90%, with a Failure means losing Speak Own Language and a Fumble means that Jojo can never relearn that language.
• Jojo could use the Storm Rune to augment Speak Own Language
• Jojo could use another Passion to augment the rolls

There are lots of ways to augment this.

20 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

and what impact in mundane world, is his quest longer than others ?

For me, no.

The HeroQuest's difficulty/power increases, not necessarily its duration. So, if the HeroQuest involves killing something of Chaos, the Adventurer might find that they have to kill a Rune Lord of Thed instead of a normal Broo. If the Adventurers needs to climb a hill to reach a Storm shrine, they might find that it is raining or snowing, making the climb harder but not longer.

20 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

because, at the end of the day, if there is not something limiting the quester, we may imagine that a character may start the quest with few skills (not an adult) and finish it with all the skills (and maybe some other stats) required to become a priest or a runelord ?

And so what if they do?

I would strongly recommend anyone thinking of running HeroQuests to forget about limiting them in some way, as that makes HeroQuesting pointless.

Make the benefits relate to the danger/power level of the HeroQuest. That way, a dangerous HeroQuest results in higher benefits, which seems fair to me.

Someone like Harmast, or maybe even Argrath, could well have embarked on a particularly difficult Initiation HeroQuest and gained more in the way of skills and abilities. That is the kind of thing that makes Heroes.

Do you want your Adventurers to be Heroic and to become Heroes? If you do then give them the opportunity. 

 

[soltakss]

19 hours ago, kalidor said:

Without heroquest mechanics we don't know. Maybe after summer we will finally get those. 

Unfortunately, that is a real cop-out that I just cannot support.

Adventurers have been HeroQuesting in Glorantha for years, why wait for HeroQuesting rules to do it?

 

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Jojo could gamble a skill to gain the Stormspeech 90%. Maybe Jojo gambles knowledge of Heortling instead, so losing the gamble means losing knowledge of how to speak own language. That way, there is a definite threat/danger with very real consequences for failure.

How about the geas - 'Must only speak in Stormspeech' for 100% in the skill?

[soltakss]

20 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

How about the geas - 'Must only speak in Stormspeech' for 100% in the skill?

Obvious in hindsight!

I might temper it to "Only speak in Stormspeech to members of the Orlanth cult", to allow the Adventurer to speak to family members.

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

I might temper it to "Only speak in Stormspeech to members of the Orlanth cult", to allow the Adventurer to speak to family members.

I'm confused... if it's only to the Orlanth cult, then it's likely to be their family members, who will be able to understand the PC a bit (minimum of 10%... maybe a few more points if they learn Stormspeech).

It therefore seems a pretty weak geas. (Besides, what if it's a mixed crowd??)

I'd be inclined to say, for 50%, then you get an easier geas (eg, only require when speaking to Orlanthi), but if you want 100%, then it's for everyone.

I'm also thinking - if you've got that geas, then you're going to be viewed as a holy person by Orlanthi... Which isn't a bad deal.

[soltakss]

39 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm confused... if it's only to the Orlanth cult, then it's likely to be their family members, who will be able to understand the PC a bit (minimum of 10%... maybe a few more points if they learn Stormspeech).

Children won't be members of a cult, so won't speak Stormspeech. Females are likely to be members of Ernalda, not Orlanth, so won't know Stormspeech. Even Orlanth might not know much Stormspeech.

40 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

It therefore seems a pretty weak geas. (Besides, what if it's a mixed crowd??)

Just trying not to destroy the Adventurer's interaction with others. After all, I am a nice GM, as I often point out.

41 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'd be inclined to say, for 50%, then you get an easier geas (eg, only require when speaking to Orlanthi), but if you want 100%, then it's for everyone.

I'm also thinking - if you've got that geas, then you're going to be viewed as a holy person by Orlanthi... Which isn't a bad deal.

That makes sense.

Of course, if the Adventurer becomes a Wind Lord, it makes the Riddling with Yelmalians interesting:

• Adventurer: "I am Borran Windtongue. Wandering Sun, Jealous Uncle, I have a new toy here, see it? Test me, twice if you can. For a gold piece each right answer."
• Light Son: "What is he saying? It just sounds like a lot of whistling to me?"

[Shiningbrow]

52 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Children won't be members of a cult, so won't speak Stormspeech. Females are likely to be members of Ernalda, not Orlanth, so won't know Stormspeech. Even Orlanth might not know much Stormspeech.

Those who speak Heortling also know Stormspeech at 1/5th... so, if their Heortling is at 50% (base), then they'll know Stormspeech at 10%.  And if their uncle Ragnar only speaks Stormspeech, then his family is likely to pick up a few extra % each season. 11%-30% is enough for basic conversations. (p.171)

It's actually not that bad a problem. (Real Life shows us this, as the grandchildren of immigrants often can't speak to their grandkids, except haltingly). Besides which, it only prevents him from speaking, not from understanding. So, communication is likely to be more one-sided, but certainly not impossible.

[French Desperate WindChild]

23 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

How about the geas - 'Must only speak in Stormspeech' for 100% in the skill?

I like the idea of geas

however, your specific one is very hard to be a good Orlanthi:

How hard will be to seduce women (except vingan, no reason to speak stormspeech) so yes 10% to hope being understood. Poor adventurer not able to follow the full path of Orlanth 🙂

In the other hand, 90% (or more) to no be understood by a yelmite, so probably a fight.

Orlanth way is not for you, follow Valind now !

 

but yes geas... of course !

[Joerg]

Must only speak Stormspeech on Winddays and/or in Storm Season sounds like an equivalent for the Yelmalio geases.

[Crel]

I generally agree that the bigger the benefit sought, the more difficult the quest. Simon's post has plenty of good ideas for handling this situation. The only thing I'd add is that, IMO, the "main" benefit an adventurer gains from a heroquest should be in some way connected with their deeds. So for me defeating a Rune Lord of Thed wouldn't necessarily gain an adventurer Stormspeech 90% (though it might get a hefty bump to the Air Rune, to one's Battle or Broadsword skill, or some other special skill or ability related to that victory).

Mastering a magical language like that seems to me like the type of boon won by seducing the queen of the Wind Children, talking a granddaddy storm ram into carrying you to the Gates of Dusk, or some other feat involving communing with the Storm powers.