Stone weapons.

[Agentorange]

I've been reading through my copy of the Weapons and Equipment guide, partcularly the section on knapped /stone weapons on page 67. I could see why stone weapons might have 1/2 hit points compared to metal weapons and deal less damage when they are damaged.

But i was surprised to see that this only applies to totally knapped or stone weapons. Spear heads, arrow heads etc are unaffected. Now for some reason ( I know not why ) I've always felt that knapped stone spear and arrow heads might be more brittle than metal ones. More inclined to shatter  or crack against armour . This would appear not to be the case.

Are stone weapons especially spear and arrow points really as effective as metal ones ?

And since I'm on a roll what about weapons made of bone - which I think was often used as a material pre metalurgy ? Should we treat them the same as stone weapons ?

Edited January 15, 2023 by Agentorange

[Squaredeal Sten]

I also thought it was peculiar.  However I suspect it reflects thoughts on "Fencing", parrying with the weapons.  And if you parry with a spear you are likely taking the hit on tbe shaft, no matter whether tbe head is stone or metal.

[Agentorange]

8 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I also thought it was peculiar.  However I suspect it reflects thoughts on "Fencing", parrying with the weapons.  And if you parry with a spear you are likely taking the hit on tbe shaft, no matter whether tbe head is stone or metal.

I think you're  probably right there. I am curious how stone weapons measure up in the ways I've mentioned. I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere that knapped flint, obsidian etc etc could actually be much sharper than metal weapons - but they lost their edge quicker and were more inclined to snap or break.

I'm surprised nobody has really chipped in ( if you'll pardon the pun ) I know there's some people here with pretty good cultural and historical knowledge

[Ali the Helering]

Having once been (accidentally) stabbed in my hand with a freshly knapped flint knife, I can assure you that they are extremely sharp and are easily as capable of penetration as a metal blade.  Losing their edge isn't a problem though - just get a knapper to make a fresh edge.

[Squaredeal Sten]

2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Having once been (accidentally) stabbed in my hand with a freshly knapped flint knife, I can assure you that they are extremely sharp and are easily as capable of penetration as a metal blade.  Losing their edge isn't a problem though - just get a knapper to make a fresh edge.

That's the voice of painful experience that Agentorange wanted.

I would say that re-knapping a flint spearhead is probably not something you could do in the middle of a fight, so in that context losing the edge, or the point, should be a problem.

The only flints I have re knapped go with my flintlock pistol.  Much less skill is required than to make a spear or arrow head.  

I would think that if a flint or obsidian spearhead were pushed through metal armor, or stopped by that armor,  there would be a high likelihood of dulling or completely breaking it.  That is not reflected in the current rule.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Agentorange said:

I think you're  probably right there. I am curious how stone weapons measure up in the ways I've mentioned. I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere that knapped flint, obsidian etc etc could actually be much sharper than metal weapons - but they lost their edge quicker and were more inclined to snap or break.

While knapped stone or glass is more inclined to snap or break, and while parts of the blade may splinter leaving nasty shards, from what I have read the sharpness of the blades doesn't deteriorate as it does for metal blades if used on soft tissue (all the way up to sinews). People have used discarded paleolithic blades for shaving, with good results.

 

Arrow tips or spear blades interacting with hard obstacles (armor, major bones) are prone to breaking in the stone tip, possibly with the shaft surviving intact, but a leaf-shaped metal arrow tip may bend or break off upon similar contact. Retrieving arrows is a combination of two rolls - Search whether you find them, and then Luck (POWx5) whether (or how much) the arrow was damaged, be it after a glancing hit or miss, or after the target fell down or moved away with the arrow stuck in them or in their gear.

There are no field repairs for arrows, but a trained fletcher could assemble new arrows from salvaged material and some new ingredients. The shafts need to be seasoned wood for reproducible results, as freshly cut wood tends to be too supple for the tensions arrows are subjected to.

The ideal shaft will fly straight even without fletching after the tip has been attached if released correctly. The typical shaft won't, and neither will the typical release allow such straight flight for an unfletched arrow. That's where the fletching comes in.

An experienced archer can use impromptu arrows from freshly cut branches at a penalty little different from the penalty for firing arrows made for a different draw strength and/or draw length. A sufficiently inexperienced archer might not notice the difference, and will be unable to perfectly reproduce draw length, release, and thereby draw strength.

 

Breakage in shafts can be expected, and there is a school of fletchers using dove-tailed multiple part shafts to achieve optimal hardness and a planned breaking point in the portion attached to the tip that may have started in the mesolithic. Wet sinew beats scotch tape by orders of magnitude for such jobs. 

[Agentorange]

52 minutes ago, Joerg said:

While knapped stone or glass is more inclined to snap or break, and while parts of the blade may splinter leaving nasty shards, from what I have read the sharpness of the blades doesn't deteriorate as it does for metal blades if used on soft tissue (all the way up to sinews). People have used discarded paleolithic blades for shaving, with good results.

 

Arrow tips or spear blades interacting with hard obstacles (armor, major bones) are prone to breaking in the stone tip, possibly with the shaft surviving intact, but a leaf-shaped metal arrow tip may bend or break off upon similar contact. Retrieving arrows is a combination of two rolls - Search whether you find them, and then Luck (POWx5) whether (or how much) the arrow was damaged, be it after a glancing hit or miss, or after the target fell down or moved away with the arrow stuck in them or in their gear.

 

So from a gaming point of view is there much point in distinguishing between stone and metal spear points and arrows ? Or is it an awful lot of hard work for not a lot of return ?

I guess the major question would be is there much difference in the way of armour penetration ?

Edited January 15, 2023 by Agentorange

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, Agentorange said:

So from a gaming point of view is there much point in distinguishing between stone and metal spear points and arrows ? Or is it an awful lot of hard work for not a lot of return ?

I guess the major question would be is there much difference in the way of armour penetration ?

Few Gloranthans have a nearly seamless armor coverage, although critters with natural armor have such. But damage can be transferred through armor, too, as SCA experiences with broken bones under hardly dented armor indicate.

I would treat an interaction between a knapped stone weapon and hard targets like a successful parry that doesn't diminish damage but harms the weapon. Possibly using a resistance roll between weapon hit points and armor hit points, with softer armor possibly having a reduced chance to break the stone if I want to make an issue out of the imbalance.

[Squaredeal Sten]

53 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

So from a gaming point of view is there much point in distinguishing between stone and metal spear points and arrows ? Or is it an awful lot of hard work for not a lot of return ?

I guess the major question would be is there much difference in the way of armour penetration ?

I would say that the point is suspension of disbelief. People using stone weapons against people in metal armor should be at a disadvantage due to breakage and resulting  failure to penetrate except on a crit.  

As for armor penetration. It is fairly well known that the Spanish conquistadors who wore metal armor  had a great advantage in melee against the Aztecs, who used stone blades.  If you treat their steel armor as enchanted iron, do the math under Runequest and I think you will get similar results  (What are the damage dice for a maquahuitl, though?).

[Ali the Helering]

Probably similar to the klanth

[Squaredeal Sten]

13 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Probably similar to the klanth

That's right!

And the maquahuitl was a slashing weapon.  At least once a horse's head was cut off with one.  So very dangerous to an unarmored or lightly armored target.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Added paragraph

[Agentorange]

4 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Having once been (accidentally) stabbed in my hand with a freshly knapped flint knife, I can assure you that they are extremely sharp and are easily as capable of penetration as a metal blade.  Losing their edge isn't a problem though - just get a knapper to make a fresh edge.

That's precisely the kind of hands on knowledge I was after  😆

[Agentorange]

So what about bone weapons then ? I know bone tools were definately a thing, bone weapons also ?

[Squaredeal Sten]

28 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

So what about bone weapons then ? I know bone tools were definately a thing, bone weapons also ?

Yes, I have read something about Praxians using bone Swords in lieu of metal.  And then of course there are Dragonewt weapons, see the Bestiary.

I suspect bone is less fragile but also less sharp.  There is no official rule for bone.  So make one or don't worry about it.  Maybe just fewer HP?  -1 damage for edged weapons?

 

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Added paragraph

[Agentorange]

38 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Yes, I have read something about Praxians using bone Swords in lieu of metal.  And then of course there are Dragonewt weapons, see the Bestiary.

I suspect bone is less fragile but also less sharp.  There is no official rule for bone.  So make one or don't worry about it.  Maybe just fewer HP?  -1 damage for edged weapons?

 

 

I'd forgotten about the Dragonewt weapons. I know in some parts of real world history bone was used as armour  and there's evidence of bone arrow and spear heads I think.

[Shiningbrow]

11 hours ago, Agentorange said:

I'd forgotten about the Dragonewt weapons.

I wouldn't worry too much about it - it's Dragonbone, not regular bone. 1H sword (klanth) HP is the same as a broadsword - 12. And their other sword, a "Korf", has 15.

11 hours ago, Agentorange said:

and there's evidence of bone arrow and spear heads I think.

Most definitely! However, they weren't going up against metal (usually)/

[Nameless66]

A stone weapon is unlikely to penetrate a solid metal piece of armour. You will however get an impact effect but if you get cut it will be quite nasty but a solid plate will stop that (based on comments form a metallurgist mate of mine)

Both bone and stone are more likely to break against metal and less likely to penetrate so impalement is unlikely unless its ignoring armour (ie crit). Bone armour as mentioned above is hard but brittle - good against slashing, poor against impact weapons such as maces - it might protect you but can also shatter and fragment. Of course, when you get it it hurts but damage to take you out of the fight is a other thing. Against flexible armour, bone based impact weapons can certainly break bones and cause internal injury.

Against flexible armour a stone weapon can certainly cut through some armour (leather / cloth) dpending on the circumstances  but there is a reason why bronze tech kicked the crap out of stone / bone. Your armour and weapons were better and harder to penetrate. Think about ring mail  - it minimises the metal bu with the ring spacing is hard to get through with an effective flint spear or arrow head and you've got the leather underneath to keep the sharp bit from seriously hurting you . of course, if you get the unarmuored bits that can be nasty.

                                                                                       

 

[Agentorange]

I think I shall put this here...it seems fitting

 

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, Nameless66 said:

A stone weapon is unlikely to penetrate a solid metal piece of armour

However metal weapons do not normally penetrate solid metal armour, so..? 

[metcalph]

An example of a supposedly brittle stone weapon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere_(weapon)

 

[Agentorange]

12 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

 

Most definitely! However, they weren't going up against metal (usually)/

True, however in Glorantha that's a real possibility. many areas of Glorantha are considered to be at a stone age level of technology. For example Balazar from Griffin island/mountain. Some of the hsunchen tribes. I dare say there are other examples.

Edited January 16, 2023 by Agentorange

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

However metal weapons do not normally penetrate solid metal armour, so..? 

It depends on tbe context and the weapon.

In  RQ context a 1D8+1 broadsword will penetrate 6pt bronze plate 3/8ths of the time on a normal hit, more often when enhanced by STR bonus.

I have my doubts about that in the Real World.  But I have not tested it live any more than the SCA folks who orignally wrote the system did.   Maybe someone has a cool video?

On the other hand I have many fewer doubts about penetration with a war hammer or a Halberd, which are RW items designed to do the job.

[Akhôrahil]

Shark Tooth sword.

(But it’s not hard to imagine what happens to it if you strike metal.)

[Akhôrahil]

29 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I have my doubts about that in the Real World.  But I have not tested it live any more than the SCA folks who orignally wrote the system did.   Maybe someone has a cool video?

Warhammers and rondel daggers will penetrate through plate. This is fairly immaterial in Glorantha though, as except possibly for dwarves, no-one will be fully covered in armor.

 

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

It depends on tbe context and the weapon.

In  RQ context a 1D8+1 broadsword will penetrate 6pt bronze plate 3/8ths of the time on a normal hit, more often when enhanced by STR bonus.

If you are going to use "RQ context" to say that a broadsword can penetrate bronze plate then surely the same argument can be made for stone weapons?