Countering a Shade

[Godlearner]

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

If they come from a deity, they are cult spirits with that deity's agenda

Then they should come with INT and CHA.

[Joerg]

10 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Then they should come with INT and CHA.

IMG some do. Others are just a portion of the elemental body of the parent deity with its instincts.

[Godlearner]

15 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Others are just a portion of the elemental body of the parent deity with its instincts.

No INT = no instincts. I understand that in this edition they complicated the matter a bit by getting rid off Fixed Int that all animals had in prior editions (a mistake in my opinion), but it still holds true.

[Akhôrahil]

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Do elementals have a sense of self-preservation? And able to ascertain danger?

I feel confident a Fire Elemental "knows" (in at least some way) that large quantities of water is bad for it, or that Darkness elementals stay away from overly large fires if given a choice (Command takes away that choice).

[svensson]

Just as any living being 'knows' that being set on fire, or falling from a great height, or being submerged in water will kill it, any spirit [which are specifically defined in Glorantha as being alive and can be killed] will fear those substances or situations that are deadly to it. Call it what you want, 'instinctual fear' or whatever, but that knowledge will determine how that spirit /elemental will cope with that situation.

Yes, yes, I know there are some creatures that will ignore obvious danger and kill themselves [lemmings, etc.], but these are overwhelmingly the exceptions rather than the rule.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

No INT = no instincts.

That's the RQ3 interpretation. RQG beasts don't have a Fixed INT stat, but certainly have instincts.

 

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

I understand that in this edition they complicated the matter a bit by getting rid off Fixed Int that all animals had in prior editions (a mistake in my opinion), but it still holds true.

Without the need to build up the animal Fixed INT to useful levels for sorcerous familiars and no longer using INT as the measure for how many spirit spells you can have, the incentive to have that stat as a rules item has gone.

Personally, I don't see how "smarts" are the measure for instinct. Yes, neural networks might be involved, but quite a lot of instinct comes from the neural networks in your intestines, aka gut feeling. Which is admittedly something only Darkness elementals embody, whereas fire elementals are expressions of intellect without having an INT stat.

[Squaredeal Sten]

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

No INT = no instincts. I understand that in this edition they complicated the matter a bit by getting rid off Fixed Int that all animals had in prior editions (a mistake in my opinion), but it still holds true.

As animals have no INT in this (RQiG) version,  I would say indicates No Int = only instincts. 

However ability to train a horse in game shows that is not literally true..  

[Godlearner]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Without the need to build up the animal Fixed INT to useful levels for sorcerous familiars and no longer using INT as the measure for how many spirit spells you can have, the incentive to have that stat as a rules item has gone.

So you say. I still find it very useful when PCs want to train an animal to do specific tasks and in situations where an animal comes across a trap or something else. We would also not be having this conversation about if elementals could dodge or not. Basically, it would not have cost anything to leave the stat in IMO.

[jajagappa]

18 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

And now you're just being silly..... 😛

On the contrary - Seven Mothers can summon Fire Elementals! (At least small ones, which may be enough to keep a shade at bay or around you while you escape.)  Or alternately, use Madness on the shade's summoner so they are no longer directing it (or are directing it in insane ways). 😉 

[Shiningbrow]

14 hours ago, svensson said:

Yes, yes, I know there are some creatures that will ignore obvious danger and kill themselves [lemmings, etc.]

I hope this was sarcasm.

This thing about lemmings suiciding off cliffs was a TV documentary stunt! So, there's no truth to it whatsoever.

However, when some beasts rampage or stampede, they can go over cliffs.. hopefully, that's cos they are oblivious to it on the run...

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

On the contrary - Seven Mothers can summon Fire Elementals! (At least small ones, which may be enough to keep a shade at bay or around you while you escape.)  Or alternately, use Madness on the shade's summoner so they are no longer directing it (or are directing it in insane ways). 😉 

Oh, my comment had nothing to do with their being able to summon Fire Elementals.

It was all about joining Seven Mothers.... what a silly idea 😛 That's just as bad as joining the Crimson Bat priesthood...

[Shiningbrow]

12 hours ago, Joerg said:

Without the need to build up the animal Fixed INT to useful levels for sorcerous familiars and no longer using INT as the measure for how many spirit spells you can have, the incentive to have that stat as a rules item has gone.

Except, you still need to store your sorcerous spells in its INT. While INT isn't used for spirit magic, it still does for sorcery... So, unfortunately, your familiar (if we ever get them back) needs both INT and CHA 😒

[whitelaughter]

On 1/26/2023 at 4:13 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Do elementals have a sense of self-preservation? And able to ascertain danger?

Given a shade will flee from light...sort of.

 

Standard way to deal with elementals in the past was to dispel the control spells on them, so that they became the summoners problem...

[soltakss]

On 1/27/2023 at 5:17 AM, Shiningbrow said:

This thing about lemmings suiciding off cliffs was a TV documentary stunt! So, there's no truth to it whatsoever.

And ostriches don't hide their heads in the sand. Of course, they do in my Glorantha, and lemmings can run off cliffs in a glorious stampede.

 

[Andrew M]

20 hours ago, soltakss said:

And ostriches don't hide their heads in the sand. Of course, they do in my Glorantha, and lemmings can run off cliffs in a glorious stampede.

 

The devestation caused by the mass  chaos lemming stampede out of Dorastor was devestating until they ran into a cliff , then the mess was terrible and the river at the bottom was never the same again

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Andrew M said:

The devestation caused by the mass  chaos lemming stampede out of Dorastor was devestating until they ran into a cliff , then the mess was terrible and the river at the bottom was never the same again

Lemming broos are the worst.

[Baron Wulfraed]

9 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Lemming broos are the worst.

Small craft brewery with staff experimenting on recipes? 🥴

[Ned]

I can see why Umbroli need it, but is there any purpose to shades having STR? Being semi-material, can their STR be used to, for example, slow the passage of those passing through it, or to push a door shut?

[Akhôrahil]

Elementals are shockingly fragile for their size, having no defensive skills, no armor, and acting on SR12.

Taking one down in one round should be very doable, and they should be given priority.

[Geoff R Evil]

In my Glorantha I treat elementals as much tougher. They use a lot of RP to summon and even more to command if needed. So to have them die so easily from a few arrows seems bonkers.

So to me, they can only be damaged by magic, and yes if they have protection or shield on the non magical damage can push thru the armour to allow the magic damage such as blade sharp to potentially do max damage. Fire blade works, except versus fire elementals of course, blade sharp, slash, true weapon etc.

This makes them truly fearsome to lower skilled groups.

But I balance this with allowing dodge or maybe jump  to avoid being engulfed, I also think essentially magical attacks can be blocked by magical defence, 2 points blocks a small shade fear attack. Remember all elementals always have a physical attack as well as any elemental power.

I do all this because otherwise any half experienced players have to be attacked with total surprise, or with a heavily buffed elemental. To me elementals are powerful elemental creatures and should be as scary as that implies.

My PCs have learnt to truly respect elementals…and understand when it’s good to use them too.

Edited February 20 by Geoff R Evil

[Ludo Bagman]

23 hours ago, Ned said:

I can see why Umbroli need it, but is there any purpose to shades having STR? Being semi-material, can their STR be used to, for example, slow the passage of those passing through it, or to push a door shut?

Elementals need STR to move their body which is made from Gloranthan matter. Some elementals are compatible with our notion of matter (earth = solid, water = liquid, air = gas, fire = plasma). Darkness is more difficult since in our view it is just the absence of light. I imagine it as including the "air" of its volume (made of or mixed with runic darkness, i.e. also cold), so basically a shade is similar to an air/gas elemental - not as mobile but still able to interact with objects.

Note that in RQ3 a creature with STR may touch and move objects, but without DEX they can only use their innate attacks and abilities and can't learn new weapon, manipulation, agility, stealth skills, so the elementals are very limited in what they can do with their body.