Jump to content

Movement and attacking


Recommended Posts

34 minutes ago, Barak Shathur said:

In RQG you can only move up to half your move and attack in the same round. 

Ah, but here's the point where one can differentiate between rider and mount. It's the mount that's moving (the rider too, obviously, but they're not engaging in any effort to do so.) Because the mount is putting effort into moving, it's the one (assuming that it's properly trained) that can't attack after moving more than half it's Movement ((aside from a slam/knockback attempt, if I'm remembering correctly) ). The horse, for instance, can't charge and kick in the same round. Makes sense. But its rider should still be able to strike.

All in all, I think we can interpret the Strike Rank rules in a way that's consistent with RQ mechanics as written and which makes a fair degree of sense (i.e., maintains verisimilitude).  

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Beoferret said:

Ah, but here's the point where one can differentiate between rider and mount. It's the mount that's moving (the rider too, obviously, but they're not engaging in any effort to do so.) Because the mount is putting effort into moving, it's the one (assuming that it's properly trained) that can't attack after moving more than half it's Movement ((aside from a slam/knockback attempt, if I'm remembering correctly) ). The horse, for instance, can't charge and kick in the same round. Makes sense. But its rider should still be able to strike.

All in all, I think we can interpret the Strike Rank rules in a way that's consistent with RQ mechanics as written and which makes a fair degree of sense (i.e., maintains verisimilitude).  

This is exactly the point I'm trying to make! But David Scott disagrees:

On 1/19/2023 at 11:33 AM, David Scott said:

However, you can charge in 18m, but you won't get the mount damage bonus. But you could go for a hefty knock back if your bison is war trained.

I would suggest in the first melee round you state you are preparing to change, so that's move to position, wheel and start the run. Second melee round, you strike at the rider plus weapon SR. I use the rider SR as there's some manoeuvring and riding to be done, however it's usually only SR 3 or 4, and the damage bonus is the mount's.

(You can ask over at the Q&A but @Scotty will give the same answer)

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

By one reading, you could charge with the full move. Rules text:

”A mount carrying an adventurer engaged in melee moves
at its normal movement rate unless the mount itself directly
engages in combat (such as a war horse making a Kick attack
or a bison making a Butt attack).”

So you might get the full normal move from your steed, if it’s not Itself attacking. Since this makes proper charging possible, it seems reasonable.

In this case, with 36 m of move out of which you only need 20, you might even be able to get yourself into position for the straight line charge in the same round, although the GM may have opinions about the turning circle of a bison if you try to push things.
 

Edited by Akhôrahil
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, Barak Shathur said:

The things I would tweak with RQ3 combat is more interesting special effects for slashing and crushing weapons, and multiple parries. I usually just lift these from BGB. In other respects, it's kind of perfect.

Quite tangential but I believe the BGB special effects are probably the better balanced (with bleeding not doubling damage and with crushing increasing the damage modifier instead of doubling it).

To this day, I am still amazed how good the BGB is...

Edited by DreadDomain
  • Like 1
  • Off Topic 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

By one reading, you could charge with the full move. Rules text:

”A mount carrying an adventurer engaged in melee moves
at its normal movement rate unless the mount itself directly
engages in combat (such as a war horse making a Kick attack
or a bison making a Butt attack).”

So you might get the full normal move from your steed, if it’s not Itself attacking. Since this makes proper charging possible, it seems reasonable.

Thanks, p219 of the RQG Rules, in case anyone was interested.

That pretty much clears it up. No need to invoke half-movement to negate the charge.

I'd still allow a Trample or something associated with the charge.

 

  • Like 2

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/19/2023 at 7:46 PM, Barak Shathur said:

Two questions about movement combined with attacking. So you can move up to half your move and attack. Your SR is increased by 1 for each 3m you move. But

P. 194: 
“Movement: Any time two fighters meet in melee, no matter how long they’ve traveled to get to
that meeting, strike rank should be figured out normally for them. However, the gamemaster should consider the time taken to get from point A to point B when an adventurer joins an ongoing melee or charges across a distance at a foe using a
spell or missile against them.”
 

1) Say Larry Longspear (MSR 6) moves 12 m towards Stevie Shortsword (MSR 7) and attacks.  Both have DEX SR 3. What happens? Does Larry arrive and attack at SR 10? Or does he arrive at SR 7 since he began moving at DEX SR 3 and adds 4 for 12m? Basically, at what SR does he arrive at Stevie, and at what SR does he attack?

 

 

On 1/19/2023 at 8:33 PM, David Scott said:

Firstly, remember Strike Rank is about determining who goes first.

Stevie goes first on SR7, Larry goes second (6+4=) SR10

I will disagree with David Scott here. I believe the intent of the MOV SR is to determine when one can join (or act in relation to) an engaged party. In your example, if I understand correctly, neither are intitially engaged and are about to engage one another. At the moment of engagement, how much they had to travel to engage is irrelevant (aka do not worry about MOV SR). What is relevant at the moment of engagement is reach (SIZ SR and Weapon SR) and quickness (DEX SR). Larry, with his longspear (and MSR6) would strike before Stevie (MSR 7).

In the next round, if Quack the Quick (MSR 5) wants to act in relation to Larry and Stevie, whether he moves or not will matter. If he rushes in (for 12m) to engage, he would then act after both Larry (MSR 5) and Stevie (MSR 6) at MSR 9 (5+4): he arrived late in the round.

The third round, the three of them are engaged. Quack acts on 5, Larry on 6 and Stevie on 7.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, DreadDomain said:

 

I will disagree with David Scott here. I believe the intent of the MOV SR is to determine when one can join (or act in relation to) an engaged party. In your example, if I understand correctly, neither are intitially engaged and are about to engage one another. At the moment of engagement, how much they had to travel to engage is irrelevant (aka do not worry about MOV SR). What is relevant at the moment of engagement is reach (SIZ SR and Weapon SR) and quickness (DEX SR). Larry, with his longspear (and MSR6) would strike before Stevie (MSR 7).

In the next round, if Quack the Quick (MSR 5) wants to act in relation to Larry and Stevie, whether he moves or not will matter. If he rushes in (for 12m) to engage, he would then act after both Larry (MSR 5) and Stevie (MSR 6) at MSR 9 (5+4): he arrived late in the round.

The third round, the three of them are engaged. Quack acts on 5, Larry on 6 and Stevie on 7.

Right?! This has got to be how it is intended to work. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/21/2023 at 12:48 PM, Akhôrahil said:

By one reading, you could charge with the full move. Rules text:

”A mount carrying an adventurer engaged in melee moves
at its normal movement rate unless the mount itself directly
engages in combat (such as a war horse making a Kick attack
or a bison making a Butt attack).”

So you might get the full normal move from your steed, if it’s not Itself attacking. Since this makes proper charging possible, it seems reasonable.

In this case, with 36 m of move out of which you only need 20, you might even be able to get yourself into position for the straight line charge in the same round, although the GM may have opinions about the turning circle of a bison if you try to push things.
 

 

15 hours ago, soltakss said:

Thanks, p219 of the RQG Rules, in case anyone was interested.

That pretty much clears it up. No need to invoke half-movement to negate the charge.

I'd still allow a Trample or something associated with the charge.

 

Agreed, I am confident this is how it is intended to work.

By the way, I'd be happy to allow a character to rush in with their full MOV as a charge, increasing their damage modifier by one step but having to succeed at half skill.

Edited by DreadDomain
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

How about, to simplify the interpretation of the RQiG rule:

1) If you are only dealing with two opponents who attempt no other action that melee round except weapon use, then who strikes first is just a matter of comparing their DEX+SIZ+ Weapon strike ranks, even if one or both of them moved..

2) If one or both of the two opponents attempts another action before weapon use, for example readying a weapon or casting a spirit magic spell, then you count the strike ranks for that action to determine who strikes first.  For example if A has a spear ready and B has a sheathed sword, B takes 5 SR to ready the sword + DEX & SIZ SRs + weapon SR, therefore B will probably be speared before completing his sword strike.

3) If you are dealing with more than two opponents, for example A and B facing off as above and C running to join the fight and strike at A, then you add in C's movement strike ranks to determine whether C arrives in time to forestall A from striking B -  or if the run in is long and C is small or clumsy, to determine whether C can strike at all before the next melee round.

Edited by Squaredeal Sten
spelling / typing
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you want to get extra gritty, you could argue that the chargee has the strike ranks it 'takes' for the charger to reach him to do some other action, like cast a spell, prepare a weapon or other, although since it's max 4 SR (12m/3) it's doesn't go that far. Maybe chargee draws weapon (+5 SR) and gets to strike at melee SR +1.

EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION: with this system, both parties would get the SR penalty added due to the charger arriving later in the round. But again, it’s a bit extra granular and not really necessary. 

Edited by Barak Shathur
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/19/2023 at 12:44 PM, Barak Shathur said:

So this is it, this is canon? If you move to attack someone, you will strike last even if you have a longer weapon and are taller? If a rider charges an opponent, that opponent gets to strike first even if the rider has a longer weapon and greater reach from being mounted?

No. IMHO it is not canon, as I read RQG.  But if you move to be a third person in a two person fight you are likely to arrive after the original two have exchanged blows.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/21/2023 at 5:06 AM, soltakss said:

Thanks, p219 of the RQG Rules, in case anyone was interested.

That pretty much clears it up. No need to invoke half-movement to negate the charge.

I'd still allow a Trample or something associated with the charge.

 

As far as I can see a Trample has to be preceded by  a Knockback and the target falling down.  If next MR the trampler moves first / in the trample  strike rank, then the tramplee may be trampled. 

At least that's the way I handled it with ankylosaurs vs. mounted adventurers.  So if your mount is knocked down you had better scramble up before the trample.

Luckily the adventurers and their mounts tend to have better DEX, or the campaign would have continued with new characters.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/19/2023 at 7:44 PM, Barak Shathur said:

So this is it, this is canon? If you move to attack someone, you will strike last even if you have a longer weapon and are taller?

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Not necessarily, if you only move a little and you have better SR than the opponent even after adding a few SRs. But often, yes.

It seems to not hold true when you’re mounted, though, as you don’t seem to spend SRs for mounted movement. Or, presumably, in chariot combat.

Also, I think RAW is a better term than canon, here.

Source: ”Any time two fighters meet in melee,
no matter how long they’ve traveled to get to
that meeting, strike rank should be figured out
normally for them.”

And also just how the basic system works - it isn’t fully or even mostly an Action Point economy, although it partly is.

Edited by Akhôrahil
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Short answer: Yes.

Did you mean to say 'no'? The text you have quoted supports the reading that SR is not an action point economy, and so you do not delay your attack by 'spending' strike ranks moving. The characters with the lower strike rank simply attacks first; that's all there is to it. Longer weapons and greater reach mean lower SR, and so, other things equal, attacking first.

Unlike RQ3, there is no rule covering how SRs are spent while mounted or not, because SRs are never spent, merely compared.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

Did you mean to say 'no'? The text you have quoted supports the reading that SR is not an action point economy, and so you do not delay your attack by 'spending' strike ranks moving. The characters with the lower strike rank simply attacks first; that's all there is to it. Longer weapons and greater reach mean lower SR, and so, other things equal, attacking first.

Actually, that’s an interesting point. My reading went like this: You explicitly add the SRs from the move to ”any” action (this is then part of the ”normally”) - what the rule says, in my original reading, is that you shouldn’t consider whether someone has ”arrived yet” for melee SR purposes (although the next part says you should for missile and spell purposes - you may be able to rush an archer before he gets to fire).

For instance, let’s say your movement adds 6 SRs as you engage (yes, you need move 12 for this to even work, let’s just ignore this for now). Your opponent will still attack you at SR 5 if that’s his SR, even though under one (unsupported) interpretation you’re not even ”there” yet at SR 5. If your own melee SR is normally 4, then it becomes 10 in this case, and you strike last.

”For each unit (3 meters) of movement an unengaged
adventurer makes during the melee round, add +1 to their
strike rank if they wish to take any action” (my emphasis)

I mean, in a way your interpretation would make more sense, but I don’t quite see the rules supporting it. It would be an easy and reasonable ruling to make, though. Note that in this case though, all movement into (a new) melee become ”free”, which might seem odd (you’re still limited to half move, but this could easily be 8 if your PCs love Mobility as much as mine do). And it would mean that completely different things happen (even at the same distance) if you rush an unengaged or an already-engaged target (there’s no doubt whatsoever that my original reasoning would apply if you joined an established melee), which is a bit weird (you could potentially end up in a situation where you wouldn’t have time to attack an engaged target, but you would have time to attack an unengaged target…)

I hadn’t even considered your interpretation before though, so thanks for bringing it up. It probably makes for a better actual rule, even with some movement weirdness. I’ll probably run it like that, and it could even be the intention, just awkwardly phrased.

And it makes me like the simplicity of Move Action + Attack Action even more. 🙂

Edited by Akhôrahil
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I said earlier that it might make sense to remove movement from strike rank considerations entirely, but for many reasons, that wouldn't work overall.  But what might work is the opposite: adding them.

In the example we started with, a character charges a stationary character.  Simply and unilaterally adding strike ranks for movement solely to the character doing the moving creates an unrealistic scenario in which the mover is likely to act second, even if they're bigger, have a longer weapon, etc.  However, although the stationary character isn't moving, they are waiting for the moving character to reach them, so logically they are in essence delaying their attack for an identical length of time to that taken up by the charger's movement.  If the charger is using 6 strike ranks to get to the stationary character, adding 6 to the strike rank of both allows other factors (dex, size, weapon) to determine the order in which they attack one another.
 

I like that a lot better than having a move action/attack action system because you can easily determine things like whether the stationary character can loose an arrow at the charger before the charger reaches them, something a move action/attack action system cannot do, unless the charger can't reach them in one turn.

 

Edited by Jason Farrell
Link to comment
Share on other sites

All of the above is why I feel it is better to have movement last, after all actions. RQIV does this, MERP does this. Everyone unengaged gets to act before anyone reaches them, if you're engaged at the start of the round you get to melee, otherwise not. There's no confusion, as far as I can see.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/19/2023 at 7:09 PM, Bill the barbarian said:

In my opinion, RQ3 handled SRs the best. It was not perfect nor did it mesh well with RQ2 but it held together long enough to hide the cracks and offer good strategies. (@Klosteris a huge fan of RQ 3) So, the Chaosium crew went with RQG to keep compatibility with RQ2. Lords and ladies, we, all know it aint perfect. It took some of the old ones from the 90s and the Noughties several screens worth of posts to sort, pre-pandemic... (2019?) and I think @Paid a bod yn dwpcollated a chart for it. But until a rewrite, what do we do... a heavy errata. It almost works now. Some folks have given us some great clues above.

Hey Paid, still got that chart for SRs and combat?

Has there been any movement on this?…sorry bad pun 

Unfortunately or fortunately I don’t think that was me with the SR chart for movement.

Rq 3 certainly created more complication with tracking SR’s and movement. Maybe it’s a good place to study for those wanting a bit more granularity to the movement rules in combat? Iirc there were charging into combat rules. Perhaps useful for these edge case rulings where RQG/rq2 simplification/abstraction is not enough? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I mean, in a way your interpretation would make more sense, but I don’t quite see the rules supporting it.

The RQ 2 rules have basically the same text, but headings 'primary considerations' and 'secondary considerations', with movement being under the latter heading. RQ:G lacks those headings, so says 'figured out normally', where RQ2 says 'figured out using primary considerations only'. But noth clearly were intended to mean the same; 'figured out as if they had not moved'.

To put it another way, unengaged movement happens before SR0. SR is not an absolute atomic clock synchronized to Solar Time. Instead it it a turn-based system, that starts when engagement starts. Movement limits by SR only apply to movement after engagement starts. Before that there is nothing to count, only an overall limit of movement per round.

Note that in a change from RQ2, engagement does not have to be in melee; charging an archer counts.

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, radmonger said:

The RQ 2 rules have basically the same text, but headings 'primary considerations' and 'secondary considerations', with movement being under the latter heading. RQ:G lacks those headings, so says 'figured out normally', where RQ2 says 'figured out using primary considerations only'. But noth clearly were intended to mean the same; 'figured out as if they had not moved'.

To put it another way, unengaged movement happens before SR0. SR is not an absolute atomic clock synchronized to Solar Time. Instead it it a turn-based system, that starts when engagement starts. Movement limits by SR only apply to movement after engagement starts. Before that there is nothing to count, only an overall limit of movement per round.

Note that in a change from RQ2, engagement does not have to be in melee; charging an archer counts.

 

 

 

So ideally, one might say, the order of the four M's should be Magic, Missile, Movement, Melee. That way, what can be achieved at range is taken care of before charges have been completed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Barak Shathur said:

So ideally, one might say, the order of the four M's should be Magic, Missile, Movement, Melee. That way, what can be achieved at range is taken care of before charges have been completed.

Except that if you start close to the archer, he may not get his second shot off under RQiG rules.  But in the sequence just proposed above, he will get all his shots off even if you start right next to him.  With a high DEX, that is three arrows at point blank range before you can spear him.   I have a harder time accepting that that I have counting strike ranks.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...