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A question about Spirit Cults


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4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

What you define as "the rules" is exactly what I define as "not the rules". 🙂

I think he was just talking about people who had read the previous editions of the rules. They're still rules...

The whole thing about the Sleep spell in RQG is made even more muddy by the fact that both The Smoking Ruin and The Pegasus Plateau have a handful of NPCs with the Sleep spell, and none of them are Chalana Arroy initiates. Then again, RQG specifically says (page 390, emphasis mine):

The cost of learning a spell is typically 50 L for common spells, more for rarer spells or cult secrets.

So it sounds like "cult secret" is really a marketing term for "premium spell" 😄  I don't know how strict the wording will be in the Cults books around cult secrets or the Sleep spell specifically, but on a purely world-building note, it never seemed feasible to me to keep a spell like Sleep entirely restricted to the Chalana Arroy cult... at least not unless CA gained spirits of reprisal that would kill anybody very fast to contain any leak. So it makes sense to me that after more than a millennium of people being people, the Sleep spell would have spread outside of the CA cult, even if it's only to "trusted" people.

Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

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On 1/28/2023 at 1:48 AM, David Scott said:

Generally speaking, a spirit cult teaches a single Rune magic or Spirit spell, or teaches a specific skill.

On a more on-topic note, my players just recently started a new Spirit Cult for a previously forgotten spirit. It will likely be as a sub-cult or associated cult of Orlanth Thunderous... I'm not sure how to pick between those two, I assume it's generally "associated"?

I'm also wondering how to expose that spirit's main power, as spirit magic or as a Rune spell. The two magic systems are obviously very different so the choice here matters a lot. From the few examples available so far, it looks like doing it as a Rune spell is more common. I guess it makes sense, since it gives a reason for people to come back and worship the spirit some more to regain the one or two Rune points they have with it... but of course it goes back to the question of sub-cult vs associated since that drives whether the Rune Points pool are common with the main cult or not...

Edited by Lordabdul

Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

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10 minutes ago, Lordabdul said:

I think he was just talking about people who had read the previous editions of the rules. They're still rules...

No, I agree. I would call them "rules" but not "the (currently applying) rules". 🙂

10 minutes ago, Lordabdul said:

So it sounds like "cult secret" is really a marketing term for "premium spell" 😄  I don't know how strict the wording will be in the Cults books around cult secrets or the Sleep spell specifically, but on a purely world-building note, it never seemed feasible to me to keep a spell like Sleep entirely restricted to the Chalana Arroy cult... at least not unless CA gained spirits of reprisal that would kill anybody very fast to contain any leak. So it makes sense to me that after more than a millennium of people being people, the Sleep spell would have spread outside of the CA cult, even if it's only to "trusted" people.

That's how I run it. As long as there are non-CA spirits with Sleep - which seems like a certainty to me, unless we want to say that no spirits can put anyone to sleep outside CA-spirits - shamans can obtain it, if possibly with more hassle.

I had a CA spirit show up and browbeat the shaman into swearing to uphold CA restrictions when using Sleep, only teach it to other swearing the same, and taking responsibility for the spell-related actions of those he teaches it to (it's interesting how players seem a lot more nervous about a CA spirit asking nicely than they would towards most actual threats backed by violence...) and even decided to be very restrictive with teaching it in case a student later would misbehave and he'd take the blame from CA. So I can see how Sleep could be somewhat available but not widespread.

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7 minutes ago, Lordabdul said:

On a more on-topic note, my players just recently started a new Spirit Cult for a previously forgotten spirit. It will likely be as a sub-cult or associated cult of Orlanth Thunderous... I'm not sure how to pick between those two, I assume it's generally "associated"?

I'm also wondering how to expose that spirit's main power, as spirit magic or as a Rune spell. The two magic systems are obviously very different so the choice here matters a lot. From the few examples available so far, it looks like doing it as a Rune spell is more common. I guess it makes sense, since it gives a reason for people to come back and worship the spirit some more to regain the one or two Rune points they have with it... but of course it goes back to the question of sub-cult vs associated since that drives whether the Rune Points pool are common with the main cult or not...

While a Rune Spell is the standard format, I think it's completely legit to make up a special ability or something instead. They will only keep the ability as long as the spirit is being correctly worshiped anyway, so they can't just forget about that part.

(Most PCs in my campaign recently picked up a +5 to CON for purposes of resisting cold.)

((A Spirit Cult doesn't even have to be Associated - you can join them without the regular cult restrictions. But it could be, if that makes sense.))

Edited by Akhôrahil
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2 minutes ago, Lordabdul said:

On a more on-topic note, my players just recently started a new Spirit Cult for a previously forgotten spirit. It will likely be as a sub-cult or associated cult of Orlanth Thunderous... I'm not sure how to pick between those two, I assume it's generally "associated"?
...

At my table, I'd look at the spirit and the spell(s) it offers.
Do they seem closely-aligned with Orlanth himself, his runes, his cosmic portfolio?  Then make it a sub-cult.
Are they more separate, like a friend/ally from a Godtime quest/myth?  Then make it Associated.

YGMV

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41 minutes ago, Lordabdul said:

On a more on-topic note, my players just recently started a new Spirit Cult for a previously forgotten spirit. It will likely be as a sub-cult or associated cult of Orlanth Thunderous... I'm not sure how to pick between those two, I assume it's generally "associated"?

if you don't know from a background perspective, manage it from a "power perspectives"

Does initiate of your spirit cult have access to all Orlanth+Thunderous rune spells ?

If yes it is a subcult

If no, it is an associated cult

 

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My understanding of the current rules, and guesses on pending (unpublished) changes to them:

  1. if summoned by a daka fal priest, or someone using similar magic  - ancestor cult
  2. if summoned by a single shaman - spirit cult
  3. if summoned by a number of shamans who share secrets - spirit society
  4. if a permanent presence, in the form of a wyter, at one or more dedicated temples - full rune cult
  5. if an integrated part of the wyter at one or more shared temples - subcult
  6. if a permanent presence at a shrine in an existing temple, by agreement with the temple authorities - associate cult
  7. if a permanent presence at a standalone shrine - minor rune cult
  8. if a permanent presence in a mortal body - hero cult

For all of these cases, you initiate by learning a Rune Spell; there may be additional requirement or tests to pass to get to do so, but it is the process of gaining the magic that established the link. If the entity doesn't have a rune spell to offer, you can't initiate to it.

For the Rune Spell learnt to be reusable, 10% of time and income most be spent maintaining initiation status. For cases 3, 5 and 6, this initiation status is shared with that of the main cult; it does not add on top of it. Spells learnt are added to the main cult Rune Pool. So in principle that is the better deal.

5 is strictly better than 6, but requires both that the spirit support multiple rune spells, and that it be mythically close in nature to the parent cult, at a minimum sharing more than one rune.

Many craft guilds choose option 7, despite the downsides of multiple initiation, because controlling trade secrets is what guilds are about. the exception that demonstrates the rule is weaving, which is generally considered everywoman's work.  This is commonly taught at an Ernaldan temple (so male tailors have to be Nandan). A similar point applies to farmers, hunters, trappers and hired mercenaries. Other craft guilds have no rune magic; some teach sorcery instead.

Thieves gangs and bandits tend to choose  option 2, because long-term viability is not a priority. When the shaman dies spirit cult initiates typically lose access to their magic. But they probably died first.

Dead heroes can be worshipped at their tomb, if it contains their mortal remains. If brought back to life, their tomb loses significance.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Does initiate of your spirit cult have access to all Orlanth+Thunderous rune spells ?

That's a good way to look at it actually, thanks. From that perspective, my game's spirit is definitely *related* to Orlanth, but is not an Orlanth cult spirit. So clearly an associated cult (for dedicated worshippers), or a subservient cult like Heler (with Orlanth worshippers getting a chance of getting that spirit's special magic at that one local Orlanth temple).

Edited by Lordabdul

Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

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1 hour ago, Lordabdul said:

On a more on-topic note, my players just recently started a new Spirit Cult for a previously forgotten spirit. It will likely be as a sub-cult or associated cult of Orlanth Thunderous... I'm not sure how to pick between those two, I assume it's generally "associated"?

I'm also wondering how to expose that spirit's main power, as spirit magic or as a Rune spell. The two magic systems are obviously very different so the choice here matters a lot. From the few examples available so far, it looks like doing it as a Rune spell is more common. I guess it makes sense, since it gives a reason for people to come back and worship the spirit some more to regain the one or two Rune points they have with it... but of course it goes back to the question of sub-cult vs associated since that drives whether the Rune Points pool are common with the main cult or not...

Depending on the spirit’s provenance and level of power, I’d probably opt for an associate offering a single rune spell rather than a subcult for a spirit. One of the examples given on here of an associate spirit to a rune cult is Sun Hawk and Yelmalio in Prax, Sun Hawk provides the spell Clear Sight to Yelmalio as an associate. If the spirit providing the magic was at some point a mortal hero who worshipped Orlanth, a hero cult could eventually grow to be a more fully realized aspect/subcult, like Garundyer’s patronage of Siglolf Cloudcrusher in Ralios who offers Hailstones. 

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11 hours ago, radmonger said:

For all of these cases, you initiate by learning a Rune Spell; there may be additional requirement or tests to pass to get to do so, but it is the process of gaining the magic that established the link. If the entity doesn't have a rune spell to offer, you can't initiate to it

I totally disagree with this.

I think, the POW is spent in making a long, formal connection with the deity or spirit. There is NO requirement that the deity/spirit gives anything back to the initiate - at all! It may help with a DI, but that's also unlikely a lot of the time. Also, some spirit cults won't have any Rune spells to offer anyway (but may have a unique Spirit Magic spell).

In fact, most of the time, the deity/spirit doesn't... it's the cult that actually gives the benefits. Such as spell teaching, skill teaching, etc.

Remember, anyone can choose to worship anything. I presume in RQ, that's mechanised by the skill, and the sacrificing of POW (which isn't limited to an ability only held by gods/deities/great spirits). Sometimes, that worship gives something back...

 

12 hours ago, radmonger said:

This is commonly taught at an Ernaldan temple (so male tailors have to be Nandan)

a) are you aware you went from weaving to tailoring? b) no, males can be initiated into Ernalda. They just don't have access to the higher ranks. (While the RQG book says there are no restrictions on initiates, and  God Talkers don't need to have given birth, which would allow males, Jeff has stated that it's relatively open to any gender - although it wouldn't surprise me if that GT bit gets a restriction). As per the book, She is the goddess of women, sex, community, and all the things that live on and in the Earth. It would be silly to say that all things on the earth... as long as they're female.

 

(FTR, I'm not against gender restrictions for cults. Just pointing out the RAW on this one.)

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13 hours ago, Lordabdul said:

On a more on-topic note, my players just recently started a new Spirit Cult for a previously forgotten spirit. It will likely be as a sub-cult or associated cult of Orlanth Thunderous... I'm not sure how to pick between those two, I assume it's generally "associated"?

I'm also wondering how to expose that spirit's main power, as spirit magic or as a Rune spell. The two magic systems are obviously very different so the choice here matters a lot. From the few examples available so far, it looks like doing it as a Rune spell is more common. I guess it makes sense, since it gives a reason for people to come back and worship the spirit some more to regain the one or two Rune points they have with it... but of course it goes back to the question of sub-cult vs associated since that drives whether the Rune Points pool are common with the main cult or not...

Could it be some sort of cultic gift - same approach to Humakti gifts ? I've often felt there's a sort of correspondance between the Humakti gift/geas thing and shamanic powers/taboos ( in approach if nothing else )

Could that work for your spirit cult ?

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Re: Sleep, and deities...

I suppose it depends on how you see Glorantha. Is it made up of gods that all epitomise something in the world? The elements is rather easy to anthropomorphise, but what about actions? Or feelings??

So, if there's a god of torture, and death, then surely they'd be a god of sleep... (and of health, and happiness).

Certainly, RQ & Glorantha were based on the mythologies of RW pantheons, but should have have all of them? And thus, able to have spells that affect everything as part of (human??) existence?

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2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

There is NO requirement that the deity/spirit gives anything back to the initiate - at all!

 

Glendower: I can call the spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come, when you do call for them?”

Anyone can worship anything. But being an initiate of a cult is, in the RQ:G rules, defined as being one of those those who get something back. In a rune cult, this is a rune spell; other types of cult may provide other types of magic.

Some rune cults do require a sacrifice of pow to join at all; those who take that deal. getting nothing magical back, are lay members.

Note that this is a change from previous versions of the rules, where initiation merely gave you the ability to learn rune magic, and even that was one use. Anyone is, of course, free to change it back. But I think it is worth stressing that the change exists, as a lot of old hands seem to sometimes forget.

To me, it is a logical change from a world-building and play perspective. players will except to show up at the temple in the next city over and be recognized as an initiate.  And as Linkedin isn't really a bronze age technology, that means initiation more or less has to be a magically-visible status.  The descriptions of spells that provide magical visibility seem to support that, in that they are called out as providing an estimate of the size and nature of rune pools.

i suppose there could be an edge case where you somehow have a rune pool in a rune cult but know no spells. It's not clear how that could happen,by the rules as it only goes up when you learn a spell, and always goes down when you cast a one-use spell.

 

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5 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Anyone can worship anything. But being an initiate of a cult is, in the RQ:G rules, defined as being one of those those who get something back. In a rune cult, this is a rune spell; other types of cult may provide other types of magic.

I think it is a question of perspective

being initiate means you are closer to the entity you worship. It is "translated" in all the cults of the RQ:G rules as "in the same time you learn a rune spell"

but you (anyone) may want an entity people worship who doesn't provide any "efficient rune spell" for players but something else :

(I = god / great entity)

" If you worship me well and sacrifice enough of your life/soul power, I will not destroy your village"

"I need to be feed to save your lands, if you can't provide me enough spirtual food, I will not be able to block the volcano evil spirit and it will burn your lands"

" Share your soul and I will teach you some knowledge [secret skill] / [secret spiritual magic]"

"Prove your faith and you will eat with me every sacred time, be sure I will protect you when you will die"

I agree we can consider that the 2 first as some very specific and located "rune spell"

 

from my perspective, rune spell and rune pool are a game design model, it is not a background thing

rune spell is the term to define "when characters pray their gods to do something, if they know the prayer and have enough "provision" to fuel it they may obtain a good answer from their gods"

but the rules propose at least six other interactions * between worshippers and their gods :

  • gift /geas (yelmalio, humakt, ...)
  • secret skill (storm bull , ...)
  • divination
  • divine intervention
  • gain of pow during worshipping (you become stronger thanks to your god)
  • save the world during the sacred time ceremonies

 

* I mean game design interaction, from a gloranthan perspective it seems to me everything is "prayer"

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I agree it is perfectly possible to initiate into a cult and get a gift, secret skill, or other magic power instead of, or in addition to, a rune spell. it might be a reasonable rule extension that some those things add to your rune pool?

However the key thing about saving/destroying the village/world is that that is not a benefit that can easily be restricted to initiates. 

One relevant reference I have handy is the RQ3 Malia cult writeup, which has

- proprietary worship, where you sacrifice a POW in return for catching diseases last 

- initiate membership, where you fully commit to helping spread diseases, and are granted magic to help you do so.

Also, if there  anything in the rules that gives initiates easier pow gain rolls, i am missing it; the only benefit mentioned under the worship skill is regaining of rune points. Which naturally lay members don't get as they have none.

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9 hours ago, Agentorange said:

Could that work for your spirit cult ?

I'm not sure it would work for my specific case, but in the general case of spirit cults, yeah it's definitely an option. The great thing with spirits is that they can be anything, with any sort of powers, abilities, demands, and so on.

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13 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I totally disagree with this.

I think, the POW is spent in making a long, formal connection with the deity or spirit. There is NO requirement that the deity/spirit gives anything back to the initiate - at all! It may help with a DI, but that's also unlikely a lot of the time. Also, some spirit cults won't have any Rune spells to offer anyway (but may have a unique Spirit Magic spell).

In fact, most of the time, the deity/spirit doesn't... it's the cult that actually gives the benefits. Such as spell teaching, skill teaching, etc.

Initiation is forming a direct, personal connection with a deity. Categorically if you initiate, fully initiate, you are giving that deity a part of you to take a part of them. A cult is not the spells but rather a collection of secrets and rites that are proven to facilitate and renew that connection. Typically it requires a cult and priest to initiate someone, usually using a heroquest that shows them how to reach their god and take part in that god’s deeds (a rune spell). The exceptions seem to be shamans, who can form that direct connection in the spirit world and connect with the spirit presences of greater entities, and experimental heroquesters, who can go into the otherworld and find new paths and sometimes even new or forgotten entities.

If you worship and sacrifice and get nothing except maybe protection from wrath, like others have said, that’s propitiation—still valid but very different from actual initiation.

Edited by hipsterinspace
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20 hours ago, radmonger said:

i suppose there could be an edge case where you somehow have a rune pool in a rune cult but know no spells. It's not clear how that could happen,by the rules as it only goes up when you learn a spell, and always goes down when you cast a one-use spell.

Absolutely I think there will be. A spirit (deity, etc) may not have any to give. It wouldn't surprise me if there are spirits out there that don't even know how to give back. I also imagine it's possible to sacrifice your POW to an entity that's dead. Or so long forgotten and hidden that their manifestation in the physical world is so weak they can't do anything.

According to WoD, Nysalor is a cult in the Lunar Empire, and one can be initiated into that cult... even though, apparently, said god is dead and dismembered.

I expect that the Seven Mothers got nothing in return for their hard-earned efforts for a very long time... until the Red Goddess was born.

12 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

Initiation is forming a direct, personal connection with a deity. Categorically if you initiate, fully initiate, you are giving that deity a part of you to take a part of them. A cult is not the spells but rather a collection of secrets and rites that are proven to facilitate and renew that connection. Typically it requires a cult and priest to initiate someone, usually using a heroquest that shows them how to reach their god and take part in that god’s deeds (a rune spell). The exceptions seem to be shamans, who can form that direct connection in the spirit world and connect with the spirit presences of greater entities, and experimental heroquesters, who can go into the otherworld and find new paths and sometimes even new or forgotten entities.

If you worship and sacrifice and get nothing except maybe protection from wrath, like others have said, that’s propitiation—still valid but very different from actual initiation.

The difference is - as I see it, and I think is important to remember and focus on - is the difference between the deity/spirit(/entity) - which one gets Rune spells from (and, rarely, other things), and the cult - which is the people who do the worship in an (fairly) organised way.

I wrote above that the deity/spirit etc doesn't actually owe you anything, regardless of what level in the cult you happen to be. Granted, they generally will give you things, but it's not common, as not many people are likely to worship a being that doesn't actually do anything for them (not including propitiation here).

So, i can easily see a local spirit being worshipped, and even have POW sacrificed to (ie, making initiates), and yet, all the spirit does is make sure something in the local environment is kept fortuitous (eg, water keeps flowing).  I can definitely imagine this in the middle of Prax, where a local watering hole will have a spirit that keeps the pool full for initiates, but may mysteriously evaporate when non-initiates are near.

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37 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

even have POW sacrificed to (ie, making initiates)

i agree all that kind of stuff happens. All I'm disagreeing on is terminology. You think sacrificing pow makes you an initiate, even if the entity sacrificed to takes that gift and uses it to do something other than forge a link to the worshiper. for example directly saving the world. rather than empowering worshipers to save the world, as is is typical of cults that follow the myth of the great compromise.

The 'i.e.' makes it seem like saying spending money gets you a car. Which ignores the fact that if you instead give the money to charity, you don't get a car. So you then become someone who has spent money, but is not a car-owner

For another example , in the current bestiary entry for vampire, it says:

Then initiates and victims must give POW and hit points (blood) to the new vampire.

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

I can definitely imagine this in the middle of Prax, where a local watering hole will have a spirit that keeps the pool full for initiates, but may mysteriously evaporate when non-initiates are near.

Given that is only present for initiates, it an be perfectly well written up as a rune spell based on the runes of illusion and water. After all, gloranthan illusions can be real enough to be nourishing.

Mirage: 1 point, duration 7 days

You perceive [place] as lush and vibrant, and can gather a basic nourishing diet of water and fruit with minimal effort, and  without requiring a survival roll . Food and drink gathered in this way cannot be shared with others, and disappears after the duration ends.. The spell immediately ends if you kill an oasis creature. Once the duration ends, you will become thirsty somewhat more rapidly than normal, as the illusionary water dissipates. However you don't suffer any ongoing effect of malnutrition or dehydration, as your body was supplied with what it needed so long as the spell was active.

Creating an oasis that can support non-initiates would be a much larger spell, typically a ritual enchantment. In this case, the entity actually performing that ritual could be a mortal sorcerer or shaman as easily as a spirit or deity. And those supplying the POW could be victims as easily as lay members.

But will rarely be initiates, because the two things are competing solutions to the same problem.

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39 minutes ago, radmonger said:

The 'i.e.' makes it seem like saying spending money gets you a car. Which ignores the fact that if you instead give the money to charity, you don't get a car. So you then become someone who has spent money, but is not a car-owner

Ah, yeah, you're right. That should have been an "e.g." Even in my own vision of Glorantha, it's easy to sacrifice POW to an entity and not be an initiate of it (ie, a bond being forged that requires devotion and worship). Shamans do it all the time.

 

56 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Given that is only present for initiates, it an be perfectly well written up as a rune spell based on the runes of illusion and water. After all, gloranthan illusions can be real enough to be nourishing.

 

57 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Creating an oasis that can support non-initiates would be a much larger spell, typically a ritual enchantment. In this case, the entity actually performing that ritual could be a mortal sorcerer or shaman as easily as a spirit or deity. And those supplying the POW could be victims as easily as lay members.

You seem to be doing the opposite of what I was thinking. I certainly agree that it could be a Rune spell. However, in my mind, I was thinking that the oasis is hidden from non-initiates (perhaps, the initiates know where the oasis is, and use a password for it to appear to them).  The illusion (if used as such) would be in keeping it kept hidden, not in making it appear as real.

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1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

You seem to be doing the opposite of what I was thinking.

Which i guess shows that, while NPCs can do what they want, if you want to have players initiate in a cult, you probably are well served by writing down what their magic can do.  The rune spell format works well for this, although sometimes one of the other magic systems works better.

Conceal Terrain is one spell, Find Lost Path would be another. Someone who is an initiate in a cult is, more or less by definition, going to know which it is they are doing when they use their powers. And everything is going to play much smoother if the character, player and gm are all on the same page as to how things work.

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4 hours ago, radmonger said:

... And everything is going to play much smoother if the character, player and gm are all on the same page as to how things work.

I'll note that the character doesn't really needs to have the same understanding.

Good Orlanthi theists cast their Rune spell and channel Orlanth; some players & some GM's will be God-Learner-y about this, and consider it just a projected personification of an "identity" onto the impersonal mechanisms of the Air Rune; or maybe a Great Spirit mediating between the caster & the Rune, siphoning off POW (from a deluded worshiper( for its own use.

 

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6 hours ago, radmonger said:

... The 'i.e.' makes it seem like saying spending money gets you a car. Which ignores the fact that if you instead give the money to charity, you don't get a car. So you then become someone who has spent money, but is not a car-owner ...

For clairity in formulation, it's worth noting that "spend" implies one is getting goods or services.  "Spending" money usually gains you something.

"Give" (or "donate") doesn't carry that implication; best not to conflate the usage.

 

/pedant

Edited by g33k
Probably what they'll put onto my tombstone -- /pedant

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8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, i can easily see a local spirit being worshipped, and even have POW sacrificed to (ie, making initiates), and yet, all the spirit does is make sure something in the local environment is kept fortuitous (eg, water keeps flowing).  I can definitely imagine this in the middle of Prax, where a local watering hole will have a spirit that keeps the pool full for initiates, but may mysteriously evaporate when non-initiates are near.

Again, this is already a thing, it’s called propitiation. It is not the same thing as initiation.

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In RQG, each rune point is an expression of that character's "magical organ" that establish a link between that character's being/soul and the otherworld entity providing that spell (directly or from an associated cult).

Spirit cults create such a link without binding your afterlife (well, one of it - your soul has five to seven parts, plenty to go around in the afterlives) to the spell-donating entity. Which is in a way similar to an Orlanth initiate (or higher) who gains the Charisma spell from Eurmal. While this may condemn him to an afterlife in proximity of Eurmal, it doesn't deliver his afterlife directly to the trickster.

POW donated to a wyter (or an enchantment) doesn't come with any immediate benefit, but may be part of a quid-pro-quo with the wyter or its priest or the cult that receives the enchantment. Such POW is bereft of any identity of the donator, unlike the rune point(s).

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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