Clarification sought on Jonstown Compendium

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

it doesn't take be to https://support.drivethrurpg.com/..., it takes me to the top of this BRP thread.  Please correct...

Strange. Hopefully corrected now.

[Nick Brooke]

6 hours ago, g33k said:

You might get better answers -- more targeted to your needs -- if you had a specific example that you were actually hoping to use.

I've been observing that "hypothetical cases" never really seem to settle anything; there was an extensive go-round on a bunch of hypotheticals surrounding the BRP OGL+SRD.

This is why the FAQ includes a comment about time-wasting rules-lawyers who have no intention of publishing but enjoy wasting other people’s time. In both cases the intent of the programme is clear (“don’t just copy our books/games, write something original instead”), but for some reason folk like to pretend they’re going to invest time and effort in exploiting a perceived edge case.

If anyone spots a genuine question or concern in the rest of this thread, let me know.

[Agentorange]

14 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

This is why the FAQ includes a comment about time-wasting rules-lawyers who have no intention of publishing but enjoy wasting other people’s time. In both cases the intent of the programme is clear (“don’t just copy our books/games, write something original instead”), but for some reason folk like to pretend they’re going to invest time and effort in exploiting a perceived edge case.

If anyone spots a genuine question or concern in the rest of this thread, let me know.

That's kind of harsh Nick. My original question was genuine. if you go back to my first post I even said that I felt that on balance what I was curious about wasn't possible due to copyright issues IP ownership and so on. So I sort of answered my own question. I haven't set out to waste anybodies time - lets face it nobody has been obliged to participate in this thread, they could just simply ignore it and move on. And I have have read with interest everybodies responses - yours included. The thread grew a bit from a specific question about HQ stuff to a more general discussion of source material and how to approach it which I found interesting and useful. Brians comments especially helped clarify things for me. I can't help but feel you've got a negative impression of my intentions here thats slightly unwarranted .

Now that may be down to me not expressing myself particularly well to start with - after all the thread title is " clarification sought " So I apologise I've come across the wrong way. That said "If anyone spots a genuine question or concern in the rest of this thread, let me know" comes across rather snide as a response.

[Nick Brooke]

I’m only doing my job, @Agentorange. When people seek clarification about the programme I help to run, don’t be surprised when I turn up. When the FAQ says, in so many words, “please don’t waste our time with niggling hypotheticals,” don’t be surprised if I sound irritable when I learn that’s exactly what you’re doing. 

The other link @Rodney Dangerduck was asking after is the Jonstown Compendium FAQ. A third useful resource is the community content agreement itself (inc. the checkboxes you tick when you publish). Handy reference copies of those three documents are at the back of my reasonably-priced Jonstown Compendium Catalogue 2021, or you can of course look them up online for nowt.

Here’s something you can do that would be completely A-OK by us: write a scenario where Orlanthi woodworking is involved. Introduce a NPC Orlanthi carpenter. Say in their intro or statblock or wherever that [Name] is an Orlanth initiate in the minor subcult of Orstan the Carpenter. Stick in a footnote saying “For everything we know about Orstan, see Thunder Rebels p.235f and the Book of Heortling Mythology p.38ff.” Job done. Anyone interested can pick up those books, in the store or on eBay or wherever. Don’t all rush at once.

Then introduce the extra details that are relevant to your scenario: they’re a friend of the local Aldryami (who have gone feral), or they’re the master crafter needed to raise a new barn in the next valley over (but those bastards are feuding with us), or their tools have been stolen by those wicked chaotic Broo or Lunars or whoever (who are using them for perverted non-carpentry-related purposes of their own).

If you want to include a heroquest, expand any of the existing Orstan myths (such as they are) into fully-detailed heroquest stations. If you want to introduce a magic item made from wood by Orstan, just go for it: “Legends say that the Throne of Colymar was carved by Orstan himself.”

If you want to assert that Orlanthi carpenters have magic that lets them straighten wood, or smooth away knots, or whatever, or have ritual obligations they undertake on behalf of the community, just narrate it. My Gloranthan Manifesto has a top tip on how to bat away annoying player questions about NPC magic. (“No, the only way you could learn to do that is if you were working full-time as a carpenter, which you aren’t (yet). Let me know if you want this character to retire and spend the next decade learning carpentry battle-magic spells.”)

To the extent that you are creatively engaging with this earlier, albeit now non-canonical material, Chaosium is likely to smile on your efforts. To the extent you are trying to reissue chunks of our older books via the community content programme, Chaosium is likely to frown on them. That’s why I keep urging creators to write something that’s new, original, creative and playable, rather than “updating“ prior publications for different rulesets. The latter is not what the community content programme is for, and we have frequently said so, to get the message across.

I hope this is clear. I’ll happily answer specific questions if you can show me what you’re working on. 

[Agentorange]

10 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

I’m only doing my job, @Agentorange. When people seek clarification about the programme I help to run, don’t be surprised when I turn up. When the FAQ says, in so many words, “please don’t waste our time with niggling hypotheticals,” don’t be surprised if I sound irritable when I learn that’s exactly what you’re doing. 

 

Well, such wasn't my intention at all. Not all of us know the JC and the rules surrounding it as well as you - or how to interpret said items. So what better place to ask about something than here wheres there's loads of knowledgable people who'll be able to fill in the gaps ?   I think you've seen malice or mischief where there was simply misunderstanding or miscomprehension. If  I strayed over a line all be it inadvertently I apologise. With  that said I have read your entire response from start to finish and have taken on board everything you've said.

[g33k]

On 1/24/2023 at 12:07 AM, Nick Brooke said:

I’m only doing my job, @Agentorange. When people seek clarification about the programme I help to run, don’t be surprised when I turn up. When the FAQ says, in so many words, “please don’t waste our time with niggling hypotheticals,” don’t be surprised if I sound irritable when I learn that’s exactly what you’re doing. 
...

To be fair, Nick, there's plenty of us out here with maybe-JC plans that are quite inchoate.
We don't always have nice concrete exemplar-cases to present; "something like this" hypotheticals may be the best we have.  🙂

I myself have several small projects in that vague/formative stage, and 2 quite large ones (full RPG's, possibly to be offered via BRP OGL).

[Nick Brooke]

OK. If your inchoate plan will involve extensively copying or paraphrasing text from a book written by somebody else - whether or not it was published by Chaosium - then it is almost certainly not an appropriate project for any of our community content programmes. Those are for your own original work, not for copies or rewrites of somebody else’s work.

The same goes if it involves updating or translating or converting or recycling or changing the presentation of material between different games, or different editions of a game, whether or not those games were published by Chaosium. Again, the community content programmes are for your own original work, not for conversions or adaptations or large-text or printer-friendly versions of somebody else’s work.

Our community content programmes let you publish using Chaosium’s intellectual property: Greg Stafford’s world of Glorantha for games using the RQ/QW/13AG rules on the Jonstown Compendium, and Call of Cthulhu for games using the 7th edition rules on the Miskatonic Repository. If you want to do something else, always reach out before you’ve put much work into it, and don’t be surprised if we say no. It may be that what you want to publish is something that Chaosium would be interested in licensing, even if it isn’t appropriate as community content, and at that point the rules I’m tediously explaining will no longer apply. (Note, though, that Chaosium generally points new creators towards the community content programmes as the best place to get started these days)

If you want to quote some Chaosium text, ask for permission, but if you aren’t doing something that’s original and creative with it, don’t be surprised if we say no. In my experience it is unlikely we will allow reuse of maps other than the Argan Argar Atlas or art other than the Rune font: the general expectation is that you will draw or commission your own. (Redrawing our published maps in your own style is absolutely fine: mechanically copying them isn’t).

If you think you’ve found a loophole, it’d be sensible to ask for clarification rather than exploit it: it would be a shame for you to put work into something inappropriate, only to find it gets pulled from the store on launch, and you will note that the terms and conditions you agree to when you participate in the programme allow Chaosium to do that. (JC CCA, section 9: “No Obligation to Make Available or Sell.”)

If permission is granted, you will need to include a copyright notice and permission statement at the start of your work to identify any Chaosium / Moon Design material you have incorporated. We can advise on the exact wording (and preferred quote formats), or you can find copious real-life examples in my own and other authors’ Jonstown Compendium publications.

I hope this helps.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Nick Brooke

[g33k]

12 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

...

I hope this helps.

I hope it helps too; I don't -- at the moment -- have any of those line-dancing, loophole-threading, annoying hypothetical queries lurking in any of my projects (that I have spotted, at least; q.v. "inchoate").  So I primarily am hoping it helps others in-thread (and those visiting via search-engine after the thread vanishes into the depths).

I can report feeling a fair amount of sympathy for some of the "line dancing" & "loophole-threading" queries I have seen (which honestly struck me as, well, honest) ... AND a fair amount of sympathy for Chaosium's exasperation at the many "that's not even a real question about a real project" queries, and their experience of the time-waste &c.  I clearly recall Jeff's extensive involvement in the back-and-forth when the BRP OGL was 1st announced... and how much it  didn't seem to make much difference  to the querants.  😞

I hope & intend -- when I have JC questions or OGL questions -- to make them meaningful & specific (and linked to one or more actual projects that I have in draft format).

Edited January 26, 2023 by g33k

[soltakss]

On 1/22/2023 at 10:00 PM, Agentorange said:

EDIT: my own gut feeling on this no it won't be OK, due to copyright issues, ownership of material etc.

My view is that if you don't think it would be allowed then don't do it.

On 1/22/2023 at 10:00 PM, Agentorange said:

As say Durev is no longer published in any form ( and was originally published by Issaries ? ) is it ok to convert and publish with all the appropriate caveats, credits etc etc ?

I wouldn't bother, to be honest. Instead, say that the cult is available to certain temples as a Subcult, granting a spell or skill. Sometimes, you could have a local Spirit Cult to the deity and, thereby, gain more skills or spells. But I wouldn't have it as a standalone cult. Having said that, having a temple to Durev that is only used by carpenters worshipping every season is fine.

Alternatively, look at the Book of Doom, which consists of the RQ Conversions of HW breakouts, from my website.

 

 

[soltakss]

For our Secrets of Dorastor and Holiday Dorastor supplements, we wrote our own descriptions of areas of Dorastor that had not really been described. Where something had been described in Dorastor Land of Doom, we simply added a link to the supplement, rather than repeating everything. So, the Dorastor Inn was described in some detail, so I left it along, simply referencing it. Of course, that doesn't help the many people who don't own a copy of Dorastor Land of Doom but I can't do much about that. For places like Slimestone, I added a lot of detail and wrote up the Great Gorp as a cult, so added a lot to the sketch descriptions from Dorastor Land of Doom.