Subcults, Hero cults and Associate cults.....

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Available to whom? Heler cultists obviously

No, because they aren't Heler cultists. Heler is a subservient cult of Orlanth Thunderous, so they are Orlanth Thunderous members.

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

but do they provide all three of these to Orlanth (Thunderous) cultists?

Yes. I'd say so (but only of there's a Heler shrine in the temple). Don't forget flight is an OE special so you could rule that you can get that from that subcult.

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Asking because "subservient cult" doesn't have a rules definition in the rulebook AFAIK. Essentially, what's the difference between subcult and subservient cult?

Subservient cults are integrated into the main cult or subcult if there isn't a main cult. You can see them in Cults of Prax (and in the upcoming cults book). Examples include 48 old ones (Eiritha), Arroin (Chalana Arroy), Dilfar the Deepsighted (Lhankor Mhy).

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think I'm reading you as the subservient cult providing all its magic to the "boss" cult, but then what's the practical difference to a subcult?

You have to pay a point of POW to join a subcult.

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

Additionally, if the subservient cult offers all of its magic and secrets to the main cult, what rationale would there be for anyone to ever seek out and initiate into it as an independent cult?

Regional differences. If you are in the Lunar provinces, you can join Barntar as a cult. It's not available in any other form. Likewise if you are fortunate to live at a headwaters or in a large city with a temple, you can join the cult of Heler, anywhere else it doesn't exist that that form. This is born out by Heler being a tiny cult in Sartar and huge in Esrolia (see Heler cult demographics)

[Akhôrahil]

9 minutes ago, David Scott said:

You have to pay a point of POW to join a subcult.

Ah, so the subservient cult is even more strongly magically integrated? And plus, while there aren't specific rules about it, I'm sure the subcult must want to accept you in order for you to join it, so that's a potential obstacle.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Thanks David, however my question may have been not very clear :

What I call the "common spells of Orlanth" : Dismiss Air Elemental (small or medium only), Increase/Decrease Wind, Summon Air Elemental (small or medium only), Summons of Evil, and Wind Warp available to all subcults.

These are special cult spells available to all Orlanth subcults.

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Then do the Odayla subcult of Orlanth provides these spells ? (like Thunderous and Adventurous. Of course the specific of each subcult needs a dedicated initiation)

They are available to the Odayla subcult as it's an Orlanth subcult. The Odayla subcult provides only the Odayla spells.

In my game, I have an Orlanth (Odayla subcult) adventurer. They selected the three Odayla Rune magics at creation. Later they can select the special cult spells available to all Orlanth subcults (or if they wish pay to join another orlanth subcult).

[radmonger]

5 minutes ago, David Scott said:

You have to pay a point of POW to join a subcult.

Which, as per p282 of RQ:G, gets you a RP and a subcult spell. Surely this is identical to the procedure for learning a spell from a cult, subcult, associated cult or subservient cult you are already initiated into?

By the rules, subcults basically don't exist. You don't pay to join them, they don't mechanically effect you while they are in them, and you don't lose anything on leaving them.

 

[David Scott]

7 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Ah, so the subservient cult is even more strongly magically integrated?

Sort of, I wouldn't overthink it.

7 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

And plus, while there aren't specific rules about it, I'm sure the subcult must want to accept you in order for you to join it, so that's a potential obstacle.

You must follow the normal rules to join a subcult, it's not automatic. Not all subcults are at a temple, only major temples have them all, and unless that's your temple, it's likely you will have to pass the usual test per RQG 282.

Fortunately the Orlanth-Odayla adventurer has Jonstown as their home and it has a major temple to Orlanth Adventurous, and so that subcult is present.

[David Scott]

1 minute ago, radmonger said:

Which, as per p282 of RQ:G, gets you a RP and a subcult spell. Surely this is identical to the procedure for learning a spell from a cult, subcult, associated cult or subservient cult you are already initiated into?

Not always. If your local temple doesn't have the subcult, you will need to travel to one that does, then you will need to pass the test, then pay a point of POW and get the spell.

1 minute ago, radmonger said:

By the rules, subcults basically don't exist. You don't pay to join them, they don't mechanically effect you while they are in them, and you don't lose anything on leaving them.

If that's how you play it, that's up to you.

[Akhôrahil]

6 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Which, as per p282 of RQ:G, gets you a RP and a subcult spell. Surely this is identical to the procedure for learning a spell from a cult, subcult, associated cult or subservient cult you are already initiated into?

There's a small technical difference in that you can learn Rune Spells as rewards or through paying exorbitant amounts of money and not just through POW sacrifice, and then you have to be in the subcult, but this is typically not all that important.

7 minutes ago, radmonger said:

By the rules, subcults basically don't exist. You don't pay to join them, they don't mechanically effect you while they are in them, and you don't lose anything on leaving them.

Basically agree, ruleswise. Which is why the GM should add roleplay-based differences and complications. You were in Adventurous and now you joined Thunderous, and suddenly the Storm Voices can call on you for service and not just the Wind Lords. You want to join a subcult, but they're being difficult and demand that you prove yourself... in fact, they have just the mission for you! The people in charge of the seventh subcult you want to join seem skeptical about your dedication to theirs, considering all the competition for your time and devotion.

[Akhôrahil]

21 minutes ago, David Scott said:

You must follow the normal rules to join a subcult, it's not automatic. Not all subcults are at a temple, only major temples have them all, and unless that's your temple, it's likely you will have to pass the usual test per RQG 282.

OK, new question:

"A candidate for initiation not familiar to the temple hierarchy must pass a test equivalent to that of initiation"

If you want to join OA or OT, this is surely the Orlanth initiation test, but with subcult-Odayla, is it the Odayla initiation test instead, then? If so, I like it a lot - that can be a real challenge for the average Orlanthi.

(I don't like how subcult-Odayla being just better makes standalone-Odayla a sucker's choice because how dramatically inefficient it is in comparison, but I guess this can be handled by roleplay as well.)

Edited February 2, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[radmonger]

12 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

(I don't like how subcult-Odayla being just better makes standalone-Odayla a sucker's choice because how dramatically inefficient it is in comparison, but I guess this can be handled by roleplay as well.)

Well, if you are supposed to be ignoring the associated cult rules, both pale in comparison to subcult-Ernalda;-0

[Akhôrahil]

Another question, then: Does subcult-Odayla receive the spell(s?) standalone-Odayla gets from its associated cults? If not, that's a major difference, since now you no longer receive Transform Self in subcult-Odayla (it's from an associated cult), and can't do the full bear transformation.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[David Scott]

48 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

OK, new question:

"A candidate for initiation not familiar to the temple hierarchy must pass a test equivalent to that of initiation"

If you want to join OA or OT, this is surely the Orlanth initiation test, but with subcult-Odayla, is it the Odayla initiation test instead, then? If so, I like it a lot - that can be a real challenge for the average Orlanthi.

(I don't like how subcult-Odayla being just better makes standalone-Odayla a sucker's choice because how dramatically inefficient it is in comparison, but I guess this can be handled by roleplay as well.)

If they haven't done it as part of character creation then sure I'd use the Odayla initiation test. This is a roleplaying game after all.

[Akhôrahil]

BTW, I believe there's a standalone Mastakos cult coming in the Cults book? How does this one relate to Orlanth? Subservient cult, Subcult, or merely Associate? And does this differ by location the way Heler and Barntar does?

[Bill the barbarian]

On 1/31/2023 at 12:47 PM, radmonger said:

Sharing the same temples, but not sharing the same services seems like too fun an option to pass up, Do the two sets of apprentices get into fights as to who gets to make a ritual procession down the shared main hall?  What do you do when you have been on the waiting list for a year to study a rare scroll, and the governor's favorite clerk just borrows it for the next 6 months?

 

There is a temple in Jerusalem that has shared management by many Christian sub-cults. Often, fist fights will break out, as radmonger suggests, between the clerics of different orders. 

[David Scott]

33 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Another question, then: Does subcult-Odayla receive the spell(s?) standalone-Odayla gets from its associated cults? If not, that's a major difference, since now you no longer receive Transform Self in subcult-Odayla (it's from an associated cult), and can't do the full bear transformation.

Considering that Odayla is the son of Orlanth & the Lady of the Wild, I don't intend to be restrictive with my player's adventurer. They still have to find a shrine to the Lady of the Wild... Or the subcult in Jonstown could have shrine (there are local hunters in the adventures) or stick a shrine out of town. I haven't decided yet. There's certainly going to be a shrine to Mother Mammal (Grandmother of Mammals) in Telmori lands that provide them with Transform Self. I'm sure the Lady of the Wild is one of her daughters somewhere.

[David Scott]

6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

BTW, I believe there's a standalone Mastakos cult coming in the Cults book?

Yes. 

6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

How does this one relate to Orlanth? Subservient cult, Subcult, or merely Associate?

Yes. Given Mastakos is the source of Teleportation and Guided teleportation, subservient.

6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

And does this differ by location the way Heler and Barntar does?

Yes, but mainly scattered shrines (and in great temples of Orlanth & Magasta). 

Among the Orlanthi, there's likely somewhere an Orlanth Mastakos subcult just for charioteers (i'd suggest where any of your charioteer adventurers are from). If you want to be in the full cult you need to be in the Jrusteli Isles, Melib, or Ralios hill tribes.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

A candidate for initiation not familiar to the temple hierarchy must pass a test equivalent to that of initiation"

If an existing Orlanth Adventurous PC is joining another subcult, even Odayla, wouldn't they already be "familiar"?  Or, they spend a little time, money, and buy free drinks to become familiar.  A very gamey way of initiating into Odayla or Yinkin  without any need to hunt or fight a scary bear or live in those cold, wet boonies for a year.

We have wondered is a candidate with no Earth Rune and 10% Fertility could basically bribe the Ernaldan Priestess to become "familiar" and let them join.

 

[Akhôrahil]

49 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

If an existing Orlanth Adventurous PC is joining another subcult, even Odayla, wouldn't they already be "familiar"? 

If it's their home temple, sure.

But if they have trekked somewhere to find a subcult that doesn't exist at their own temple (many won't), then they need to either pass the test again or become familiar. I think the GM should be free and liberal to even enforce the latter, as it's more interesting, or to replace a simple skill roll-off with having to on a quest as the test.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Considering that Odayla is the son of Orlanth & the Lady of the Wild, I don't intend to be restrictive with my player's adventurer. They still have to find a shrine to the Lady of the Wild... Or the subcult in Jonstown could have shrine (there are local hunters in the adventures) or stick a shrine out of town. I haven't decided yet. There's certainly going to be a shrine to Mother Mammal (Grandmother of Mammals) in Telmori lands that provide them with Transform Self. I'm sure the Lady of the Wild is one of her daughters somewhere.

This makes sense to me - you can get it (we wouldn't want to deny that bear transformation, after all, and it's very underpowered anyway so it's not a balancing issue), but not trivially.

[David Scott]

10 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

If an existing Orlanth Adventurous PC is joining another subcult, even Odayla, wouldn't they already be "familiar"?  Or, they spend a little time, money, and buy free drinks to become familiar.  A very gamey way of initiating into Odayla or Yinkin  without any need to hunt or fight a scary bear or live in those cold, wet boonies for a year.

We have wondered is a candidate with no Earth Rune and 10% Fertility could basically bribe the Ernaldan Priestess to become "familiar" and let them join.

Personally in my games, I use loyalty to the temple or other member of the temple hierarchy, to be familiar. 

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, David Scott said:

No. If you join Orlanth subcult of Odayla, you must as with all other subcults, pay a Rune point to join other subcults to access their Rune magic. So a Thunderous member must pay a Rune point to join Adventurous, and vice-versa

How does this matter if your goal is to learn another rune spell anyway? Or is the rune point part of a different rune point pool?

[Akhôrahil]

9 minutes ago, Joerg said:

How does this matter if your goal is to learn another rune spell anyway? Or is the rune point part of a different rune point pool?

Virtually but not completely none; and no.

[hipsterinspace]

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

Regional differences. If you are in the Lunar provinces, you can join Barntar as a cult. It's not available in any other form. Likewise if you are fortunate to live at a headwaters or in a large city with a temple, you can join the cult of Heler, anywhere else it doesn't exist that that form. This is born out by Heler being a tiny cult in Sartar and huge in Esrolia (see Heler cult demographics)

I can understand that from a sort of magical division of labor perspective in a place as populous as Esrolia, but if someone can call upon all of both Heler and Orlanth Thunderous’s magic, it seems like that is going to completely discourage any independent initiation into the former. I suppose that’s an easy rationale for why the cult is so tiny, but in that case why does an independent cult exist at all? If Orlanth’s cult gets the full array of magic, it doesn’t seem like anything additional is gained by the community by having—or the individual worshipper in initiating into—Heler as an independent cult. Unless there are some unseen unique advantages from a different set of associate cults and their magic (medium water elementals and access to fireshield), an independent cult seems almost vestigial. At best there’s a social and maybe mythic advantage to it, but at the cost of a significant magical disadvantage.

Edited February 2, 2023 by hipsterinspace

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, hipsterinspace said:

seems like that is going to completely discourage any independent initiation into the former

Completely true.  The authors' complete disdain of "play balance", which in practice is more like deliberately blowing huge holes in game balance, leads to most cults being highly discouraged for a thinking player.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Rodney Dangerduck

[hipsterinspace]

12 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Completely true.  The authors' complete disdain of "play balance", which in practice is more like deliberately blowing huge holes in game balance, leads to most cults being highly discouraged for a thinking player.

I don’t think balance is a really concern for me, having less magic in return for a more interesting character is perfectly fine by me, different cults have different niches. My big issue is that this seems to entirely obviate any niche for an independent cult to even exist. Jeff’s post here seems to imply that Orlanth Thunderous doesn’t get access to Flood (with Flight being an Orlanth cult spell already), which would make independent initiation into Heler provide at least something unique, but if Orlanth indeed gets Flood as well, it seems like there’s no reason for the cult to exist outside of highly specialized agricultural magic (that can incidentally also be done by the much more numerous and magically potent Orlanth cult).