Subcults, Hero cults and Associate cults.....

[Rodney Dangerduck]

16 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

I don’t think balance is a really concern for me, having less magic in return for a more interesting character is perfectly fine by me, different cults have different niches. My big issue is that this seems to entirely obviate any niche for an independent cult to even exist.

Agree completely.

Yelmalio may be a "weak" cult, but at least it has a niche.

Cults like Heler and Odalya, if they can be readily accessed as subcults of Orlanth, seem to have little reason to exist as independent cults.

[radmonger]

3 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

I can understand that from a sort of magical division of labor perspective in a place as populous as Esrolia, but if someone can call upon all of both Heler and Orlanth Thunderous’s magic, it seems like that is going to completely discourage any independent initiation into the former.

I've not seen anything that suggests Heler can be considered an aspect of Orlanth, and so treated as an aspect subcult (i.e. flavour) of Orlanth. Instead, as Scott says above, he is an aspect of river deities like Engizi (or perhaps vice versa).

The way I understand Odayla works is that some clan temples support Odayla (aka Orlanthson Bearwalker) instead of Orlanth Adventerous. From the clan's point of view, it is very much a side-grade; they won't produce 'normal' Orlanth Rune Lords locally.

Six Seasons in Sartar, from the Jonstown Compendium, has the Haraborn clan who teach unique stag magic; it is still an Orlanthi clan. 

As an outsider, you can visit such a clan. If you are not at war or feuding with them, they may grant you the right to worship at their temple, and so renew any Orlanth rune magic.  If you were to marry or be adopted into that clan, you become part of it, worship daily at their temple. And you  are truly part of the clan the day you learn your first clan Rune Spell. In this case, you keep your own, because it's still an Orlanthi temple, so worshiping there will renew your magic.

Or, staying as an outside, maybe you do them some great service, and they let you learn some unique rune magic. When you return home, you can maintain renewable access to that magic at your local temple,. As Odayla is an aspect of Orlanth, you can do this without having to spend any of your time and energy maintaining a shrine, as you would for, say, Heler. However, either way. if you want to learn more magic, you still have to return to the temple that teaches that. Hopefully now you are an honored guest and they will do so in return for a smaller favor.

In cities, for some cults there are small temples that work much the same way, except on more of a commercial basis, explicitly expecting payment to learn magic. For Odayla, by it's nature, this is uncommon. Perhaps there is one small temple in Boldhome, sponsored and supported by those who see Bearwalkers as a military counter to the Telmori? For more, you'd have to visit Saird.

In effect, 'independent initiation' at a communal level is required in order to support 'subcult access' at an individual level. Someone has to maintain the temple a PC can learn magic at. That's the level at which 'balance', in the form of plausibility and internal justification, applies.

 

[radmonger]

- double post -

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by radmonger
deleted as duplicate

[hipsterinspace]

31 minutes ago, radmonger said:

I've not seen anything that suggests Heler can be considered an aspect of Orlanth, and so treated as an aspect subcult (i.e. flavour) of Orlanth. Instead, as Scott says above, he is an aspect of river deities like Engizi (or perhaps vice versa).

This post and this post, both from David, seem to directly contradict your assertion here. By this model Heler is so fully subsumed as an aspect/accessory that, provided there is a shrine in the temple, Orlanth Thunderous's initiates don't even have to initiate into a subcult to acquire all of Heler's special rune magic and cast it with their Orlanth rune point pool. At that point why would anyone bother with an independent Heler cult?

Edited February 3, 2023 by hipsterinspace

[radmonger]

3 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

This post and this post, both from David, seem to directly contradict your assertion here.

I would suggest David there is using 'provide' to mean 'renew', not 'teach'. Otherwise that directly contradicts the temple size rules he also quoted a page or two back, and:
 

Quote

 

If your local temple doesn't have the subcult, you will need to travel to one that does

 

if your temple supports a shrine to a deity, you can renew any magic from that deity by worshipping there. This is, after all, how most Lightbringers work on a clan level. Your clan lawspeaker may have trained in Jonstown, but they live here. This just requires the deities be associates, not aspects. Which I _think_ is what David means by 'subordinate cult' versus 'sub cult'. A shrine in a temple is not going to have its own permanent staff, but will exist entirely on the good will of the temple hierarchy.

As always, if no single temple has everything you want, then you have to spend twice the time and effort to keep on good terms with both of them, and keep their divergent teachings separate in your head (i.e multiple tithing, and split rune pool).

Or else maybe the Invisible Orlanth movement is correct, and every god is actually an aspect of the big O,... 

[hipsterinspace]

7 minutes ago, radmonger said:

I would suggest David there is using 'provide' to mean 'renew', not 'teach'.

  This is directly contradicted by:

15 hours ago, David Scott said:

Heler is normally a subservient cult of Orlanth Thunderous (shrines in Great and many major temples)

• as subservient cult, access to all (3) special Rune spells are available.

Having all 3 special rune spells available.

11 hours ago, David Scott said:

They aren't Heler cultists. Heler is a subservient cult of Orlanth Thunderous, so they are Orlanth Thunderous members.

And not needing to be initiated into Heler as a cult or even a subcult to use them.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

To be fair to, and to say something nice, about Chaosium, their focus on the major, common cults, such as Orlanth, Ernalda, and Humakt, and "subsuming" some of the lesser cults into them as subcults, greatly simplifies things for newer players.  Which I think is a good thing, to bring in new Runequest players.  Just a little disappointing to us old timers who want to learn more about the minor cults, and have them play a meaningful role in our games.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Rodney Dangerduck

[radmonger]

7 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

Having all 3 special rune spells available.

I suppose there is another possible interpretation of what a 'subservient cult' means. As per the rules, only one spell can be learnt at a shrine  An associated cult maintains separate cultural and political existence, and so ensures that spell is the same at every shrine. The shrine spell represents a formal alliance or deal that strengthens both cults. But they do not trade away all of their magical secrets.

A subservient cult doesn't hold that line. All of it's magical secrets have been plundered or given away to the cult it is subservient to. So all can be learnt by simply visiting each such shrine, and all renewed at any. As such, the cult genuinely no longer has a reason to exist. If it still does, it will be in terminal decline.

 

[metcalph]

I think part of the turbulence is that people are assuming there's no cost to having a shrine to Heler or Barntar.  But I don't think that follows.  A minor temple to Orlanth isn't normally going to have shrines to Barntar and Heler, it would more likely have a shrine to one or the other.  So a minor riverine temple to Orlanth would have access to Helering rune spells while a minor hillside temple might have Barntaring spells.   

[David Scott]

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

How does this matter if your goal is to learn another rune spell anyway? Or is the rune point part of a different rune point pool?

It's down to style of play. If you like to integrate your player's adventurers into their cult and hierarchy, it gives you story hooks for roleplaying interaction. If you just have the adventurers pay their 100L/pt and point of POW and leave, that's fine too.

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

A minor temple to Orlanth isn't normally going to have shrines to Barntar and Heler, it would more likely have a shrine to one or the other. 

I would even say it's fairly likely it only has one out of Adventurous and Thunderous.

[David Scott]

20 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I would even say it's fairly likely it only has one out of Adventurous and Thunderous.

It's worth looking at some of the clan temple makeup in the GMSP Adventure book and some that Jeff has put notes out about:

In the GMSP the major temples are

Clearwine

Earth Temple

• Major temple Ernalda, all subcults, associate cult shrines - Asrelia, Babeester Gor, Maran Gor
• Shrines - Flamal, Orlanth

Lightbringers Temple

• Major temple Orlanth Adventurous, all subcults inc Four Magic Weapons
• Minor temple Orlanth Thunderous, Orlanth Rex, Associate cult shrine - Ernalda
• Shrines - Issaries, Eurmal, Chalana Arroy, Lhankor Mhy

Starfire Ridges

• Major temple Orlanth Thunderous (shared), all subcults, Associate cult shrine - Ernalda (Bless Crops)

Larnste’s Table (Shared)

• Major temple Orlanth Adventurous Associate cults - Mastakos

Wandering Orlanth Adventurous cart (Major)

Most clans have a Minor temple Ernalda, Minor temple Orlanth Thunderous, plus some have a specialist temple, all have scattered shrines.

All of this is in the book

See also:

• https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/orlmarth-clan/
• https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/varmandi-clan/
• https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/ernaldori-clan/
• https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/hiording-clan/

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

It's down to style of play. If you like to integrate your player's adventurers into their cult and hierarchy, it gives you story hooks for roleplaying interaction. If you just have the adventurers pay their 100L/pt and point of POW and leave, that's fine too.

True. Effectively going into the same direction as Thunder Rebels did for Hero Wars, which had a subcult or at least local invocation for each equivalent of a RQ rune spell.

11 hours ago, radmonger said:

I've not seen anything that suggests Heler can be considered an aspect of Orlanth, and so treated as an aspect subcult (i.e. flavour) of Orlanth. Instead, as Scott says above, he is an aspect of river deities like Engizi (or perhaps vice versa).

Harkening back to the Hero Wars/HeroQuest era, there is no reason why any one subcult should be limited to a single cult if there are mythical reasons to include the magic in the arsenal of another cult. Sometimes a spell comes from a subcult, at other times the same spell may come from an allied deity.

[David Scott]

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

True. Effectively going into the same direction as Thunder Rebels did for Hero Wars, which had a subcult or at least local invocation for each equivalent of a RQ rune spell.

Harkening back to the Hero Wars/HeroQuest era, there is no reason why any one subcult should be limited to a single cult if there are mythical reasons to include the magic in the arsenal of another cult. Sometimes a spell comes from a subcult, at other times the same spell may come from an allied deity.

I don't see this as being at all like the Hero Wars/HeroQuest era. It's a very limited spread of small named cults. 

[Eff]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

True. Effectively going into the same direction as Thunder Rebels did for Hero Wars, which had a subcult or at least local invocation for each equivalent of a RQ rune spell.

Harkening back to the Hero Wars/HeroQuest era, there is no reason why any one subcult should be limited to a single cult if there are mythical reasons to include the magic in the arsenal of another cult. Sometimes a spell comes from a subcult, at other times the same spell may come from an allied deity.

You could even go further and allow for spells to be cast according to an "affinity" that's detached from specific Runes, allowing for Orlanth cultists to use Rain from Heler based on a shared weather affinity, while making it somewhat more difficult to access water magic that's not about the weather. Just as a hypothetical. 

[Akhôrahil]

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

True. Effectively going into the same direction as Thunder Rebels did for Hero Wars, which had a subcult or at least local invocation for each equivalent of a RQ rune spell.

I think the Invocation idea is productive - Yavor doesn’t have a subcult, but he is who you call on when casting (or learning) Lightning, and so on.

Although in this case, Lightning already almost has a subcult, depending on your interpretation of the Four Weapons.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[David Scott]

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think the Invocation idea is productive - Yavor doesn’t have a subcult, but he is who you call on when casting (or learning) Lightning, and so on.

Yavor is Lightning Boy, an independent spirit cult in Prax and an Orlanth Adventurous subcult: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/prosopaedia/deities/l/lightning-boy/

[Joerg]

To make my intentions clear: Nobody should have to memorize that entire list of Thunder Rebel "single rune spell" subcults in order to play an Orlanthi. Leave that to nerdy pub-quizzes.

The various suggested subcults in HW did a lot to make playing a worshiper of Orlanth less run-of-the-mill compared to the previous RuneQuest incarnations, and brought to attention a lot of potential specializations, supporting these as possible previous experience options which would give the character a range of abilities commensurate with that specialization. Something that can be done in RQG without breaking the system or the (non-existent) game balance just as well in your game/Glorantha.

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

To make my intentions clear: Nobody should have to memorize that entire list of Thunder Rebel "single rune spell" subcults in order to play an Orlanthi. Leave that to nerdy pub-quizzes.

The various suggested subcults in HW did a lot to make playing a worshiper of Orlanth less run-of-the-mill compared to the previous RuneQuest incarnations, and brought to attention a lot of potential specializations, supporting these as possible previous experience options which would give the character a range of abilities commensurate with that specialization. Something that can be done in RQG without breaking the system or the (non-existent) game balance just as well in your game/Glorantha.

In my experience they did little except to create over-specialised classes and were a barrier for many players and GMs. 

[Joerg]

52 minutes ago, Jeff said:

In my experience they did little except to create over-specialised classes and were a barrier for many players and GMs. 

The full panoply of names and subcults was a barrier, yes. Providing some of these as additional options rather than as obligatory specialization would have tickled my preference for broader skills and less generally inept characters. But you could have three Orlanth-worshiping farmers from the same clan and possibly the same household with different magical special abilities without making them accomplished heroquesters in the backstory.

My personal GM barrier was more in the rules with all those simulationist hold-overs

lampooned in Nick's "Hero Wars Gaga" and a sudden lack of the ability to gauge the outcome of encounters compared to RQ.

Yes, there were sub-cult affinities that were needlessly restricted, like e.g. Orlanthi flight or Lightning.

[hipsterinspace]

I’m still trying to wrap my head around this. What advantage does an independent cult offer to an initiate that a subservient cult does not? Different associates? More myths and heroquests to draw power from? The (always contentious) justification that’s repeatedly been given for the mass exodus of Elmal worshippers in Sartar for the Sun Domes has been Yelmalio’s superior magical might and broader mythology. If this is the case, why would an independent (and significantly magically weaker than Elmal) cult of Heler exist anywhere?

If it can be magically proven that Heler is an aspect/accessory to Orlanth Thunderous (or whatever river) to the extent that separate initiation and rune pools are unnecessary, and that those worshippers have access to significantly more (and more powerful) magic and mythology to draw on, what social or magical reality compels an independent cult to exist? Is the opposite true, does a Heler initiate gain access to the full complement of Orlanth Thunderous’s magic and/or a river god’s magic? I’d imagine not, but it would at least make it understandable.

[Joerg]

Just now, hipsterinspace said:

I’m still trying to wrap my head around this. What advantage does an independent cult offer to an initiate that a subservient cult does not? Different associates?

Different associates, different mutual relationships to other cults. Orlanth and Magasta aren't the best of friends, but Heler has ties to both.

 

Just now, hipsterinspace said:

More myths and heroquests to draw power from? 

Not really, unless being in a cult allows you to ride along myths of associate cult deities.

 

Just now, hipsterinspace said:

The (always contentious) justification that’s repeatedly been given for the mass exodus of Elmal worshippers in Sartar for the Sun Domes has been Yelmalio’s superior magical might and broader mythology. If this is the case, why would an independent (and significantly magically weaker than Elmal) cult of Heler exist anywhere?

Tradition, people don't know better, hostility trumping utility - various possibilities.

 

Just now, hipsterinspace said:

If it can be magically proven that Heler is an aspect/accessory to Orlanth Thunderous (or whatever river) to the extent that separate initiation and rune pools are unnecessary, and that those worshippers have access to significantly more (and more powerful) magic and mythology to draw on, what social or magical reality compels an independent cult to exist? Is the opposite true, does a Heler initiate gain access to the full complement of Orlanth Thunderous’s magic and/or a river god’s magic? I’d imagine not, but it would at least make it understandable.

If you can have a cult that is associated with both all the rivers (and Magasta etc. at the end of them) and with Orlahth and his friends, you might have a better range of associated cults of myths. Or at least the cult leaders tell their followers that this is the case, with few of them being able to check whether this really is the case, the cult leaders included.

Logically contradictory claims can be magically proven to be true at the same time by using slightly different names. Already the God Learners stumbled onto this when they did their replacement experiments.

[hipsterinspace]

34 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Different associates, different mutual relationships to other cults. Orlanth and Magasta aren't the best of friends, but Heler has ties to both.

Heler’s associates notably exclude Magasta and most of the other big aquatic powers, likely due to the separation from the sea, a significant mythological point. Heler’s only associate cult connections to the sea proper are Triolina and his child with her, King Undine. Ernalda, on the other hand, actually has both Orlanth and Magasta as associates, her husband protectors, and as a peacemaker is probably going to have a more useful role in reaching accommodation.

Heler’s listed associates in the upcoming cults book write up that I have seen are Orlanth Thunderous, Grain Goddesses, King Undine, Triolina, and River Gods.

34 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Tradition, people don't know better, hostility trumping utility - various possibilities.

Well, the places Heler is stated to be worshipped independently are headwaters (where the river begins and its cult is bound to be extant), and in Esrolia, where there are stated to be over 200k Orlanth Thunderous worshippers to Heler’s ~12k. In places where there’s hostility towards Orlanth, there’s still the river.

34 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Logically contradictory claims can be magically proven to be true at the same time by using slightly different names. Already the God Learners stumbled onto this when they did their replacement experiments.

Heler as subordinated to Orlanth Thunderous and various river cults is still the same Heler, it doesn’t seem like there’s much in the way of god-learning or name games taking place. Perhaps there are other parts of Heler that are not available to Orlanth or Engizi worshippers or whomever, but that seems at odds with the case being presented given that there’s no additional magic provided to an initiate of Heler as such. Perhaps there are other aspects that are unknown to the Orlanthi writ large, but that doesn’t make a case for why an independent cult is present.

Edited February 5, 2023 by hipsterinspace

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

Heler’s associates notably exclude Magasta and most of the other big aquatic powers, likely due to the separation from the sea, a significant mythological point. Heler’s only associate cult connections to the sea proper are Triolina and his child with her, King Undine.

Heler comes from a different family of Gods than Magasta.  Heler and Triolina are the offspring of Sramak and Daliath (Body and Mind) while Magasta is the son of Daliath and Framanthe (Mind and Spirit).  So Heler's non-association with Magasta and other Manthie isn't due to his isolation from the sea.

 

 

[metcalph]

As far as I see it, an Orlanthi Thunderous worshipping Heler would normally get access to his special rune magics (Rain, Flood etc) but not any magics of his associate deities - that is nothing from the river gods, the grain goddesses and so on.  If he were to show up at the River Temple or Grain Temple, he would get the magic that the god or goddess provides *Orlanth* rather than Heler.  To benefit from Heler's associates, an Orlanthi would have to develop an identity as a Helering, like sacrifice a point of POW to join the Helering cult.

So in Orlanthi lands, Heler would not have a separate cult but his dedicated worshippers can be found attached to the temples to Orlanth, taking on the roles of Heler in the rituals.  A similar situation exists for Barntar.