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Subcults, Hero cults and Associate cults.....


Agentorange

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33 minutes ago, metcalph said:

As far as I see it, an Orlanthi Thunderous worshipping Heler would normally get access to his special rune magics (Rain, Flood etc) but not any magics of his associate deities - that is nothing from the river gods, the grain goddesses and so on.  If he were to show up at the River Temple or Grain Temple, he would get the magic that the god or goddess provides *Orlanth* rather than Heler.  To benefit from Heler's associates, an Orlanthi would have to develop an identity as a Helering, like sacrifice a point of POW to join the Helering cult.

So in Orlanthi lands, Heler would not have a separate cult but his dedicated worshippers can be found attached to the temples to Orlanth, taking on the roles of Heler in the rituals.  A similar situation exists for Barntar.

 

Correct. Heler is worshiped by most Orlanth cultists as Rain, the loyal follower ever at Orlanth Thunderous' beck and call. That's pretty much all he is - the source of the Rain spell.

However, even they know him as a once-mighty Water god, brother to Magasta, Triolina, and Nelat. As an independent god, Heler is the father of King Undine, source of water elementals and nymphs, and an ancestor of the triolini. As Lorion, he is the Celestial River, the source of the water that falls from the sky.  These connections can only be explored by Heler's dedicated worshipers. This is a very small cult in Dragon Pass, but it does exist.

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6 hours ago, Jeff said:

Correct. Heler is worshiped by most Orlanth cultists as Rain, the loyal follower ever at Orlanth Thunderous' beck and call. That's pretty much all he is - the source of the Rain spell.

That's in line with how I understand associated cults to work.There could be a Heler shrine in an Orlanth temple, just as there could be a shrine to a number of other deities, as per the temple size rules. Noone involved thinks those gods are the same just because they can be worshipped in the same temple; Theyalans are not monotheists.

The issue is that, if Heler is an associate not an aspect, the example given by David above breaks the current temple size rules (RQ:G p 284: worship [at a shrine] provides access to a single rune spell special to the cult).

I vaguely remember some previous version of the rules (RQ3?) having a Great Temple being able to contain minor temples to associated deities; if so, that would make sense of how an Orlanth cultist can access all of Heler's special rune magic.

So the apparent inconsistency may be a result of those rules changing in that, or some other way, or being dropped. Or he may have made an mistatement. or there may even be an editorial inconsistency between the cults books and the main rules.

As i see it, what really made Heroquest so hard to run as a new player was the lack of game mechanics to guide you in learning the setting. It mostly worked fine once you did, but getting there was not easy. If that is one of the motivation for using a crunchy system, then those detailed game rules really should to be consistent with canon Glorantha.

GMs can of course choose to bend or break them, but they need to know what they are in order to get to that point.

 

 

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On 2/2/2023 at 9:13 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Yelmalio may be a "weak" cult, but at least it has a niche.

Yelmalio is a strong cult of Light. It can demoralise Vampires without a POW vs POW roll (Sunbright), can see in the dark (Catseye) and provides powerful light magic (Lantern).

On 2/3/2023 at 9:30 AM, metcalph said:

I think part of the turbulence is that people are assuming there's no cost to having a shrine to Heler or Barntar.  But I don't think that follows.  A minor temple to Orlanth isn't normally going to have shrines to Barntar and Heler, it would more likely have a shrine to one or the other.  So a minor riverine temple to Orlanth would have access to Helering rune spells while a minor hillside temple might have Barntaring spells.   

I was going to disagree, but on a second reading I agree.

Minor Temples to Orlanth will have locally important shrines, but not all the Subcult shrines. Major Temples probably do and Great temples have even more shrines.

 

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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38 minutes ago, soltakss said:

and provides powerful light magic (Lantern).

I never understood the point of Lantern.  If you cast a normal Light spell on the front of your shield, you basically get the same effect.  Just 10 meters vs. 12.  And Light is much more versatile for other purposes, with no arguments with the GM over what is a "flat surface".  What am I missing?

My Yelmalian Light Son used Light, and never bothered to learn Lantern.

Sunbright is good.  So is Catseye, though several other cults can have access.

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19 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I never understood the point of Lantern. 

It used to be variable, lasting 1 melee rounds per point, so it lasted longer than Light did. Also, if you had a Spell Enhancer (I think, the one that boosted the number of points of variable spells) that would add to the points and, thereby, increase the duration. Now it's a 1 point spell it is only slightly better than Light.

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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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  • 3 months later...

Hi all. I need to put a shortform Barntar Cult in the Pavis County section of the next book in the P&BRC series. Has anyone created such a thing that they would be happy to donate? Thought I'd ask before I sit down to write it

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Former Issaries Inc. 'Pavis Expert'

Some of my creations and co-creations: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/browse?keyword=Ian Thomson 

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36 minutes ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

I need to put a shortform Barntar Cult in the Pavis County section of the next book in the P&BRC series.

Perhaps just wait until the Cults of Glorantha Lightbringers book is out? (It is due around Gen Con, and I believe is supposed to include Barntar.)

That way you don't need to create something that will quickly be out-of-sync with official Chaosium release.

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Yeh, its very awesome that the Cults book series is due out soon, and if a version of Barntar is out before Vol. 03 is released (July) then I will cheerfully delete my version. But is also possible that Barntar might be in a later book and not be seen for some months after that date. So I'm going to put an interim shortform (single column) version in the County article since its the most commonly worshipped deity for males in Pavis County

------------------------------------

Former Issaries Inc. 'Pavis Expert'

Some of my creations and co-creations: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/browse?keyword=Ian Thomson 

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1 hour ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

Hi all. I need to put a shortform Barntar Cult in the Pavis County section of the next book in the P&BRC series. Has anyone created such a thing that they would be happy to donate? Thought I'd ask before I sit down to write it

What's been posted here about Barntar is effectively that he's the same as Orlanth Thunderous, but with the three rune spells of Tame Bull, Command Bull, and Plow. Unless you're in Esrolia or in the Empire, that's what Barntar looks like.

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On 5/21/2023 at 5:21 AM, hipsterinspace said:

What's been posted here about Barntar is effectively that he's the same as Orlanth Thunderous, but with the three rune spells of Tame Bull, Command Bull, and Plow. Unless you're in Esrolia or in the Empire, that's what Barntar looks like.

Agree. Apart from a full cult, Barntar is also a subcult to Orlanth Thunderous (and Ernalda?) and provides the Plow spell (only) as a subcult. Some people who ostensibly worship "Barntar" (to keep the Lunars happy) might well be doing Orlanth Thunderous worship with a public focus on the Barntar parts (and presumably, if you worship OT with Barntar subcult, you can regain Orlanth Rune Points in a Barntar temple by joining the Barntar rites?). 

Edited by Akhôrahil
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