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Who is the oldest Gloranthan?


Shiningbrow

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Since one can Heroquest and get effective immortality (or at least, regular resurrection), I'm curious as to who the oldest on the cube is. And how many very old ones there are - and how old that is. Do they all know each other?

And why don't they control the machinations of states (the way some have in the past).

 

(I should qualify that last bit - obviously some do still in some places, by why isn't it fairly standard?)

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1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Since one can Heroquest and get effective immortality (or at least, regular resurrection), I'm curious as to who the oldest on the cube is. And how many very old ones there are - and how old that is. Do they all know each other?

And why don't they control the machinations of states (the way some have in the past).

 

(I should qualify that last bit - obviously some do still in some places, by why isn't it fairly standard?)

There are the immortal Brithini who have been alive since before the Gods War.  The oldest of them is Zzabur who considers himself human.

There also the Agitori of Pamaltela.

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4 minutes ago, metcalph said:

There are the immortal Brithini who have been alive since before the Gods War.  The oldest of them is Zzabur who considers himself human.

There also the Agitori of Pamaltela.

I know the Brithini are supposed to be immortal if they follow the teachings (same as dwarfs), but WoD (which I always read as World of Darkness!) says Zzabur is no longer on the material plane, so I don't think that counts.

The Agitori... apparently, demi-gods, so not quite what I meant... But good to know. (somewhat disappointing that in the GoG, there are 4 references to these people, and it's a 100% copy and paste for all 4 references 😞 ). Do you have another reference for them?

I'm thinking more individuals rather than races that have immortality built in. Even the races would have individuals who are older...

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Androgeus was around probably since the first copy of the Man Rune was made. He is a fallen demigod, though.

No idea whether there are Gloranthan Struldbruggs older than Godunya. The two individuals mentioned in King of Sartar for having an aging contest probably failed to survive the fall of the EWF or the subsequent Dragonkill, but they might set an upper limit for non-Brithini ancient humans in the Kerofinelan cultural environment.

Akgarbash of Laurmal, a resident of Aggar IIRC, might be a Brithini zzabur, or a God Learner wizard posing as such.

There might well be eastern sages evading aging (and effectively Time) in meditations that started before the Dawn.

 

Among the aldryami, there may be trees and/or dryads predating the Dawn, but probably no elfs of this high age. (Except possibly turned into trees.)

Uzuz are potentially unaging, so might not count, and dark trolls don't usually get that old. What kind is Cragspider' humanoid part?

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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While there may be very old Dryads and Mostali, the intent of this challenge seems to be to name a given individual.  Here are some ideas:

Androgeus was around Before Time.

Given his size and the fact he is bigger than many mountains, we should consider quite how old Gonn Orta might be.

Allegedly Kyger Litor is still at large in the Castle of Lead.

For that matter, does Yelm count?  If Yelm counts, what about Uleria?

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Given his size and the fact he is bigger than many mountains, we should consider quite how old Gonn Orta might be.

Gonn Orta was freshly initiated (or some equivalent thereof, give or take a few centuries) when he went to trash the Nidan dwarf colony. He may have been one of the first elder giants sent down Magasta's Pool on a cradle who returned from the Underworld, possibly at Hellcrack. That voyage became possible only after the Implosion of the Spike and Sky River Titan showing the way for his lover Annilla.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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I've heard a rumour that Lokamayadon is still alive at the end of the Third Age, mourning his hubris in the First Age, and praying to Orlanth (and any other god) for forgiveness and that he might die. But none of the gods will listen to his prayers, and he can't die. He started as a mortal and later became a demi-god (at least).

I'm moderately sure that Tarndisi (a dryad in Sartar) is from the First Age or perhaps even pre-Dawn.

While Godunya became Emperor of Kralorela in the Third Age, and was supposedly in Dragon Pass in EWF during the the late Second, there's been some hints (I really can't remember where) that he was already ageless then and perhaps was born in the First or even earlier. Godunya is another human that became a demi-god.

Ralzakark was alive in the First Age. His antecedents are not clear and may have been born or created already an immortal.

If you hunt through the sources, you will likely find many more. I suspect that Cragspider is the most extensively documented mortal now (apparently) immortal. And her motivations seem to be mythic rather than political.

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16 minutes ago, Charles said:

I've heard a rumour that Lokamayadon is still alive at the end of the Third Age, mourning his hubris in the First Age, and praying to Orlanth (and any other god) for forgiveness and that he might die. But none of the gods will listen to his prayers, and he can't die. He started as a mortal and later became a demi-god (at least).

I need a "Lokamayadon Was Right" t-shirt!

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11 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I know the Brithini are supposed to be immortal if they follow the teachings (same as dwarfs), but WoD (which I always read as World of Darkness!) says Zzabur is no longer on the material plane, so I don't think that counts.

He has made Brithos inaccessible, but hard to say exactly what that means.

However, there are Brithini in other places in Glorantha. Some dwell at Sog City in the Citadel of Brass.  There's one, I believe, in Refuge. I don't recall if the Talar of God Forgot is one.

12 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm curious as to who the oldest on the cube is. And how many very old ones there are - and how old that is. Do they all know each other?

The Luathans are additional demigods who likely date from before the Dawn. Some are present in Seshnela.

Most of the Mistress Race trolls, where they exist (e.g. at Castles of Lead) pre-date the Dawn.

The oldest of the dwarfs will pre-date the Dawn.

Do they know each other? Probably not. They are fairly broadly distributed, and the Elder Races and demigods likely stick to their domains.

The Brithini, though, probably know one another (or are at least aware of each other).

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11 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Do they know each other? Probably not. They are fairly broadly distributed, and the Elder Races and demigods likely stick to their domains.

Ooops, I should probably have phrased that better (again).

I should have asked "Do they know of each other?" (as well as, would they have encountered each other somewhere in Time?) After all the wars, and then occasional bouts of attempts at peace, I would have thought there'd be some meeting up - or at least, known about.

Which may have created a rivalry that's been going on for thousands of years. (part of the purpose of this thread...). As well as rivalries within groups..

 

(Edit: HA! I just thought... perhaps I should have asked, "Who holds the longest grudge?" 😛)

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On 2/6/2023 at 2:46 AM, Shiningbrow said:

I know the Brithini are supposed to be immortal if they follow the teachings (same as dwarfs), but WoD (which I always read as World of Darkness!) says Zzabur is no longer on the material plane, so I don't think that counts.

Zzabur will presumably return when Brithos reappears.  At the Brithini will say that he has.

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10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Which may have created a rivalry that's been going on for thousands of years. (part of the purpose of this thread...). As well as rivalries within groups..

The Elder Races clearly. However, none of those are based on personal rivalry but species rivalry. 

The dwarf heresies show intra-group rivalries, and there may be certain individuals noted in those events (e.g. Chark the Liberator and the Individualists vs. the Nidan Decamony).

Elves, as a somewhat collective entity, seem less likely to spawn individual rivalries, but will be broader (e.g. forest vs forest).

Most trolls are not immortal, so no rivalries noted within the group since the Dawn.

For really ancient individual rivalries, Zzabur seems the most likely. 

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On 2/6/2023 at 5:25 AM, Akhôrahil said:

"She began as a dark troll" says the Guide.

I'm pretty sure I have seen official Chaosium Darkness-Pantheon genealogies which place Cragspider on an entirely-different branch of the Darkness family-tree (not even descended from KL herself; which AFAIK entirely rules out her being any sort of Uz, originally). 

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31 minutes ago, g33k said:

I'm pretty sure I have seen official Chaosium Darkness-Pantheon genealogies which place Cragspider on an entirely-different branch of the Darkness family-tree (not even descended from KL herself; which AFAIK entirely rules out her being any sort of Uz, originally). 

Methinks that's Aranea you are remembering. 

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17 hours ago, metcalph said:

Methinks that's Aranea you are remembering. 

It certainly wasn't Aranea... OTOH, a quick look-round via Google doesn't find any of what I remember RE Cragspider; she doesn't appear in the geneaologies (which in fact would fit with a humble uzko origin).

Based upon the genealogy from the Well, here:   https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/image-1.jpeg
... I may have been misremembering XU/ZZ, or more-likely AA -- descent from Subere being part of my vague recollection.  That general lower-left region of the pic also fits my memory.

Edited by g33k
correcting a mis-edit

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12 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Elves, as a somewhat collective entity, seem less likely to spawn individual rivalries, but will be broader (e.g. forest vs forest).

Most trolls are not immortal, so no rivalries noted within the group since the Dawn.

These two could be interesting to discuss....

Forest v forest... why?? (not including the poisonthorns, of course - that's rather obvious)

Although you may suggest no rivalries between the Uzuz, I'm not so sure, given that there is the berserker troll Zorak Zoran, and the trader Argan Argar, and the relative pacifist Xiola Umbar... I can see intense personal rivalries between the upper echelon of those cults (not that we'll actually have anything written about such things... probably all hidden away in the dark).

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6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Forest v forest... why??

Competition for the blessings of Yelm/Light.  

Traditional trees vs. disorderly vines. (In the US, I'm thinking about kudzu in the south, bittersweet in New England, which climb up and smother anything they can - they don't invest in developing a trunk, and can extend roots whenever a segment of the vine touches the ground.)

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9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

...

Forest v forest... why?? (not including the poisonthorns, of course - that's rather obvious)

...

IRL, we can observe that some forests grow with broadleaf/conifer mixes, others grow strictly a single type, and yet others are a virtual monoculture of a single species of tree.  There are various reasons why this happens, some of them well-documented & others still under investigation.  In Glorantha, we'd look for mythical reasons-why.
 

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

... Competition for the blessings of Yelm/Light ...

This is one possible explanation, and an excellent one.  Amusingly, it's exactly one of the RL explanations -- trees do compete for sunlight.

One might also note that there can potentially be competition for territory/resources between one forest and another, where they abut or where one is (e.g.) upstream of another... etc etc etc. 

Given Dryad's control of all who are birthed within their groves, I might also speculate that they run a bit jealous, with dryad-vs-dryad rivalries...  Maybe even rivalries over lovers, with very-human-like interactions?

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1 hour ago, g33k said:

This is one possible explanation, and an excellent one.  Amusingly, it's exactly one of the RL explanations -- trees do compete for sunlight.

They certainly do!  Where I live in New England, the pines out-top almost all trees. They shed branches periodically (during wind, ice, or heavy snows) which can easily crush growing trees below them.  The blanket of needles they shed in the fall also creates an acidic soil favoring pines and bad for grasses generally.  And as evergreens, benefit from year-round light.

The oaks and maples, while not growing as tall (and subjecting themselves to the worst winds), make up for it in density of leaves at any point where they can get sunlight.  The dense canopy shades most other trees or undergrowth from access to light (aside from the tall pines).  However, they can't tolerate more extreme cold.  

You get "battles" then on these fronts where changes in cold, wind, amount of ice damage, or available light create long-term shifts between one part of the forest vs another.

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20 hours ago, soltakss said:

The Only Old One was born before Time but he probably isn't as old as some of the demigods mentioned.

He has been in a state of demise since 1318, too.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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