Tarsh after the Battle of Heroes

[Squaredeal Sten]

After the Battle of Heroes (dark season 1628ST) what is the condition of Tarsh?  Presumably Argrath's army walks into Bagnot. As Bagnot is a day's March away.  I don't see a suggestion of a siege and it would make no sense for Argrath to retreat.

What's the state of the Phargentes vs. Fazzur Wideread civil war?  I never did understand Fazzur's geographic base.  The canon relations in their triangle with Argrath?  

What's the economic state of Tarsh?

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[metcalph]

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

After the Battle of Heroes (dark season 1628ST) what is the condition of Tarsh?  Presumably Argrath's army walks into Bagnot. As Bagnot is a day's March away.  I don't see a suggestion of a siege and it would make no sense for Argrath to retreat.

What's the state of the Phargentes vs. Fazzur Wideread civil war?  I never did understand Fazzur's geographic base.  The canon relations in their triangle with Argrath?  

What's the economic state of Tarsh?

 

There have been plenty of cases in which the defending army has been destroyed but the attacker is unable to take the city (the Assyrian Siege of Jerusalem is a good example where we have both sides of the story).  Argrath's retreat from Bagnot is precisely the type of detail that gets left out of any heroic retelling.

Fazzur's power base is the city of Dunstop and Kodros Island.  They do deals with Argrath because their real enemy is the King or Moirades and Ethilrist's sack is still a vivid memory.

Tarsh is rich.  With the Revolt in the Redlands and the White Moon Rebellion, the opportunity not to pay taxes is quite good especially since the Provincial Overseer got eaten by a Dragon.

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Presumably Argrath's army walks into Bagnot. As Bagnot is a day's March away.

Minaryth Blue (KoS p.182) makes no mention of a siege at Bagnot (he does in a later year about Furthest). "I survive Battle of Heroes where Harrek kills Jar-eel and Argrath chases Red Emperor off the field. I help sack Bagnot."

Bagnot is not otherwise mentioned in relation to the Battle of Heroes (unlike Dunstop where there is a short scenario in WF #3 where the Sartar units must try to take the city in 3 days, and since connected to the WBRM units is presumably a related battle).

So, I'd go with the gates are opened to them and the Sartarites proceed to sack it.

[Squaredeal Sten]

In a related question, whar happens to Tarsh king Pharandros?  According to Jeff he is in command of tbe advanced guard at the Battle of Heroes and Argrath's Prax horde eats his lunch.  I don't find anything saying he is killed.

I guess that he flees to the Red Emperor at the 3rd (unengsged) part of the Lunar army, which h includes Furthest regiments,  and does not stop in Bagnot or Dunstop but continues at least to Furthest.

OK, then I take it there's a final break with Fazxur's family.  I consider that Annstad has every incentive to negotiate to make himself Argrath's Tarsh king, and a Tarsh civil war occurs within the larger events of Lunar civil war and Argrath's conquest.

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[metcalph]

    

Just now, Squaredeal Sten said:

In a related question, whar happens to Tarsh king Pharandros?  Please Jeff we is in command of tbe advanced guard at the Balttle of Heroes and Argrath's Prax hordeeats his lunch.  I don't find anything saying he is killed.

After the fall of Furthest (1630 ST or therabouts), the King (implied as Moirades in the text but probably Pharandros) is described as being killed (KoS p20).  There's a bit of obscurity about the details, one tradition saying that he was captured and killed while the other has him being captured but nobody knew what to do with him, before Mularik leaps up and kills him.  p106 has him being sent to the City of Wonders in exile, which smells like face-saving BS since the city had been destroyed long before.  

 

[jajagappa]

11 minutes ago, metcalph said:

p106 has him being sent to the City of Wonders in exile, which smells like face-saving BS since the city had been destroyed long before.  

Given that the remnants of the City of Wonders are now drowned and underwater, yes, it seems like a nice euphemism.  Perhaps only his head was sent there...

[Nick Brooke]

The fate of Tarsh King Pharandros in your own campaign is surely up to you / your players / your dice. It's a perfect example of where you should invoke the RuneQuest Effect / YGWV principle, just like the Death of Darius in an Alexander campaign: it shouldn't happen off-stage or be left to NPCs, when there are so many ways to include the players in a great historical event. I will be disappointed if there are prescriptive canonical details; certainly, you could embellish or ignore those contradictory fragments in King of Sartar as a starting point. But whether he is slain by Vostor in honourable battle, gets offed by an adventurer with no Honour, gets imprisoned and then rescued by a Lunar Skorzeny squad, etc. is fertile ground for gamemasters everywhere. Don't constrain them!

Potential spoiler for The Duel at Dangerford & Crimson King:

Spoiler

My explanation for the confusing names of Tarsh Kings in King of Sartar is in these two JC scenarios. I also liked Peter's earlier version (w/ Pharandros as Prince Regent for Moirades as a sinister sorcerous Tiberius-on-Capri figure) from Tarsh in Flames, and commend it to anyone with access to that old Unspoken Word zine.

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

6 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

The fate of Tarsh King Pharandros in your own campaign is surely up to you / your players / your dice. It's a perfect example of where you should invoke the RuneQuest Effect / YGWV principle........I will be disappointed if there are prescriptive canonical details; certainly, you could embellish or ignore those contradictory fragments in King of Sartar as a starting point.....

  Hide contents

 

 

Oh, I have not gotten to 1630 ST yet.  But I wanted to clarify that he had not died in 1628 / Battle of Heroes.  This makes a difference to what my players and their adventurers negotiate with Fazzur's son Annistad at Dunstop.  Which in my version was not taken by assault. Instead Dunstop switches sides, so Tarsh will be in a state of open civil war for a couple of years. Which makes sense to me as Argrath goes haring off with Harrek to fight Ethelrist.

It seems to me that in the background as presented there is a lot of motivation to do that.  Pharandros and Fazzur are known to be in conflict since 1625, Pharandros regarding Fazzur's sons as a threat.  So loyalty to Pharandros has to be gone, because in RQ loyalties are reciprocal.   The Red Emperor has fled and may be regarded as a paper tiger.  The Glowline blinked out because the Tarsh Temple of tbe Reaching Moon is desecrated.    Tarsh is now a war zone and the family forunes will be ruined if Dunstop is ruined.  Annistad already  initiated to Orlanth and I interpret that as his preparing to switch sides.  It is in Argrath's interest to peel off Lunar adherents and have an active ally, and trade with Tarsh, rather than to conquer a desert.  And Argrath may not want to conduct a siege in winter, and to keep his Sartarites mobilized so that they miss the planting season back home.

So I have Annistad prove his Orlanthi bona fides by casting Cloud Clear,  and Dunstop is not assaulted.  My Glorantha has indeed varied. 

But I don't want it to vary so massively that if you publish a 1630 Hero Wars supplement I can't run it.  

[Darius West]

On 2/25/2023 at 9:04 AM, jajagappa said:

So, I'd go with the gates are opened to them and the Sartarites proceed to sack it.

Sacking cities that surrender is very poor tactics.  Any commander worth more than spit won't allow it as it will deter any further opportunistic surrenders in the future.  Argrath also needs to replenish and grow his army.  You can't do that if everybody hates you.  Argrath is a military genius, not an irrational maniac.

[Joerg]

39 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Sacking cities that surrender is very poor tactics.  Any commander worth more than spit won't allow it as it will deter any further opportunistic surrenders in the future.  Argrath also needs to replenish and grow his army.  You can't do that if everybody hates you.  Argrath is a military genius, not an irrational maniac.

While it may be poor strategy, it might be necessary tactics if you have allies/mercenaries like Wolf Pirates and Praxian beast riders.

Mongol tactics might not work all that well in Orlanthi society, but it may work on Lunar populations. Cities that surrender before they get enclosed will be treated differently than cities that fought.

Gates can be opened by commandos surprising or otherwise overwhelming the guards. Happened in Bagnot 1440.

[Akhôrahil]

On 2/27/2023 at 7:32 AM, Darius West said:

Sacking cities that surrender is very poor tactics.  Any commander worth more than spit won't allow it as it will deter any further opportunistic surrenders in the future.  Argrath also needs to replenish and grow his army.  You can't do that if everybody hates you.  Argrath is a military genius, not an irrational maniac.

This was the historical standard, wasn’t it? You surrender to a shorter and more orderly looting, instead of the other, rampaging kind. It’s expected on both sides. Also, it’s how you keep your troops happy.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Jeff]

Argrath has promises to fulfil. 

(STORM SEASON - EARLY) BATTLE OF HEROES

Argrath leads a smaller army of some 2500 Praxians, 2000 Sartarites, and 1500 Wolf Pirates over Dragon Pass in mid-winter. It includes Harrek, Gunda, the Sartar Free Army, the Magical Union, and his Barbarian Horde. Upon hearing that the Sartarites have crossed into Tarsh, the Lunar Army quickly marches to meet the foe.

The two armies assembled outside of Bagnot. The battle was ferocious and terrible. Harrek kills Jar-eel and rips out her heart which he wears as jewelry (Harrek also loses an eye and a foot). Without Jar-eel, the Lunar army is routed and were cut down when they ran. Some 2000 imperials are casualties; Argrath loses around 1000 casualties. Afterwards, the victorious Sartarites seize Bagnot, but do not dare pursue further.

(STORM SEASON - LATE) MUSE ROOST

Argrath sends part of his army back to Sartar to put down a Telmori uprising. With a select force of chosen warriors, Argrath, Harrek, and Gunda the Guilty make a surprise raid on Black Horse Country, to fulfill Argrath’s promise to Harrek. 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Thanks @Jeff!  Even if the fine details of the fate of Bagnot are obscured, that's YGMV material anyhow.

One thing that we, mainly I, noticed is that the bulk of Argrath's forces, and his key allies and Companions, are weird Arkati westerners and sorcerers, Esrolians, Harrek and his Wolf Pirates, Praxians, etc.  Not exactly King of Sartar material.  At least, in 1627-1628.

In our campaign, that is stirring up some trouble with our largely Colymar group of PCs and the proud Leika.  All fun and good plotlines.

 

[Nick Brooke]

Sartar was a furriner, Rodney.

[Jeff]

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Thanks @Jeff!  Even if the fine details of the fate of Bagnot are obscured, that's YGMV material anyhow.

One thing that we, mainly I, noticed is that the bulk of Argrath's forces, and his key allies and Companions, are weird Arkati westerners and sorcerers, Esrolians, Harrek and his Wolf Pirates, Praxians, etc.  Not exactly King of Sartar material.  At least, in 1627-1628.

In our campaign, that is stirring up some trouble with our largely Colymar group of PCs and the proud Leika.  All fun and good plotlines.

 

Argrath was able to get 2000 warriors to leave Sartar and march over Dragon Pass in Storm Season. That's certainly one of the largest group of Sartarites to follow a Prince outside of the Kingdom since Tarkalor. And wisely, he brought Wolf Pirates and loads of Praxian cavalry, just like in the old days. 

As for the Colymar, it is easy enough for him to show tribal ancestry. 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Jeff

[Squaredeal Sten]

Sartar or Argrsth?

Anyhow, thanks.

[Jeff]

8 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Sartar or Argrsth?

Anyhow, thanks.

Corrected to Argrath.

[Squaredeal Sten]

Nevertheless these events are to the advantage of Sartar.

1) Sartar is not the war zone, instead Tarsh is.  For a change.  

2) Sartar can trade freely from rebel Tarsh to the Holy Country, this is nearly as good as the old days before the Lunar invasions.

3) With the Lunar Civil War starting, Sartarites can trade even farther north. With some risk.

4) And unless I am wrong Argrath forms a league or alliance with the disparate parts of the Holy Country.  

 

 

[Darius West]

23 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This was the historical standard, wasn’t it? You surrender to a shorter and more orderly looting, instead of the other, rampaging kind. It’s expected on both sides. Also, it’s how you keep your troops happy.

No, not always.  Not by a long chalk.  It benefits the winner to keep the city they have taken in working condition if they have surrendered, and it will mean the locals will feel less hostility towards the invaders, and in the longer term be faster to properly subjugate.  A real genius commander knows these things.  There are times when looting is impossible to stop, but it is never desirable, especially as it makes your troops rich, and rich troops may well simply desert.

[Nick Brooke]

You understand that "the gates were opened to Argrath's army" isn't the same thing as "the city surrendered to Argrath's army," right?

[Murf]

On 3/1/2023 at 10:16 AM, Jeff said:

 

Argrath has promises to fulfil. 

(STORM SEASON - EARLY) BATTLE OF HEROES

Argrath leads a smaller army of some 2500 Praxians, 2000 Sartarites, and 1500 Wolf Pirates over Dragon Pass in mid-winter. It includes Harrek, Gunda, the Sartar Free Army, the Magical Union, and his Barbarian Horde. Upon hearing that the Sartarites have crossed into Tarsh, the Lunar Army quickly marches to meet the foe.

The two armies assembled outside of Bagnot. The battle was ferocious and terrible. Harrek kills Jar-eel and rips out her heart which he wears as jewelry (Harrek also loses an eye and a foot). Without Jar-eel, the Lunar army is routed and were cut down when they ran. Some 2000 imperials are casualties; Argrath loses around 1000 casualties. Afterwards, the victorious Sartarites seize Bagnot, but do not dare pursue further.

(STORM SEASON - LATE) MUSE ROOST

Argrath sends part of his army back to Sartar to put down a Telmori uprising. With a select force of chosen warriors, Argrath, Harrek, and Gunda the Guilty make a surprise raid on Black Horse Country, to fulfill Argrath’s promise to Harrek. 

Any details on how Argrath's Muse Roost Campaing went? Our group did the "White Horse Quest" Where Sir Ethralist sacrificed his hwite horses to gain the demonic Black Horses and have had a bad attitude with him ever since. I know it is not  cannon but YGMV and has become a defining part of our party. So we would LOVE to join in the looting and pillaging.

 

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

23 hours ago, Murf said:

Any details on how Argrath's Muse Roost Campaing went? Our group did the "White Horse Quest" Where Sir Ethralist sacrificed his hwite horses to gain the demonic Black Horses and have had a bad attitude with him ever since. I know it is not  cannon but YGMV and has become a defining part of our party. So we would LOVE to join in the looting and pillaging.

 

 

I believe Muse Roost was heavily looted.  

But Ethelrist survives, and is evidently eventually welcome at at Argrath's court.  At least that is what Ethelrist himself writes, see p. 750 of Guide to Glorantha.

[jajagappa]

45 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

But Ethelrist survives, and is evidently eventually welcome at at Argrath's court.

I think it's more like Ethilrist is killed, but successfully returns from Hell.

[Squaredeal Sten]

Muse Roost is in the Grazelands.  So that raid is not a Tarsh event, though it is more or less a result of Argrath"s first Tarsh campaign.

[jajagappa]

3 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

though it is more or less a result of Argrath"s first Tarsh campaign.

If you bring Harrek, you always have to ensure his Wolf Pirates are well-paid with plunder. You just have to figure out where to point him to that's not your own lands.