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1 combat round?


carrock

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I think instead of start calculating DEX ranks, one should try the Strike Ranks system. It was build for this amount of detail and clearly handles it in a better and easier way.

As far as 'stunning' goes when using the Strike Rank system, I would judge the d3 'lost rounds' are the next d3 actions. Simple and smooth. :)

DEX ranks are much simpler than using Strike Ranks. That is why DEX ranks are the default, and Strike Ranks are the option. Both work similarly - you start at the beginning rank and move to the last, then cycle around. Something that occurs in the middle of the actions phase and is expected to take a full combat round can easily be counted form the rank the action starts in one round, and completes on the rank in the next round, to yield one full combat round.

If you use "d3 lost rounds are the next d3 actions", you are not using the definition of a full combat round. What if the stunned character can perform multiple actions, say 2, in a round due to a high DEX or whatever. The d3 lost rounds becomes d3/2 lost rounds if you rule that s/he loses the next d3 actions.

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If you use "d3 lost rounds are the next d3 actions", you are not using the definition of a full combat round. What if the stunned character can perform multiple actions, say 2, in a round due to a high DEX or whatever. The d3 lost rounds becomes d3/2 lost rounds if you rule that s/he loses the next d3 actions.

see my example definition above (in the thread). I still think you are overcomplicating the issue. Im interested though how your power rules work, if a character casts a spell at INT 16 and the spell needs one round to get off. Does that mean it will go off at INT 16 the 'next round', even if the rules say spells go off at the beginning of a round? If so, does INT 16 take place before DEX 16?

Edited by pansophy
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That would leave the orc in a big disadvantage, as it already 'lost' 9 DEX ranks. Penalising it for an other round seems to be unfair to me, if you 'calculate' DEX ranks. Your 'DEX calculation' could now be simplified by saying 'the orc loses its next action' - no calculation needed.

What if the orc has 110% skill and does split attacks on DEX rank 11 and 6. In that case does an orc stunned on DEX rank 10 lose the DEX rank 6 action, but only get the DEX rank 11 action enxt roudn delayed? Surely the orc should lose two actions, as it was stunned for a round.

Concersely if the orc had only one action on DEX 11, if it's stunned on DEX 10 it has lost nothing that round as it's already acted, so surely it must lose it's action on DEX 11 next round otherwise the only effect has been to delay one action by 1 DEX rank.

Simon Hibbs

Check out the Runequest Glorantha Wiki for RQ links and resources. Any updates or contributions welcome!

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Without having looked at the actual BGB text I have for as long as I can remember in RQ & CoC treated any short term effect such as "x for a round" to mean, "xed until the end of the next round." It just keeps things simple and clean. It does mean that an orc who is stunned before he attacks ends up losing two potential attacks rather than just one.

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The Laundry, p54:

"When the last character involved in the round has completed

their resolution phase and the DEX rank countdown

reaches 0, any potential effects that are ‘once per round’ or

anything that lasts for the duration of the round ends at this

time. This might include poisons, acid, fire, sorcery or other

miscellaneous conditions."

Going from here, I would say a one round stun effect ends at DEX rank 0, giving other characters the chance to make an Easy attack against the stunned target. A two round stun effect would last until the DEX rank 0 of the following round.

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That would leave the orc in a big disadvantage, as it already 'lost' 9 DEX ranks. Penalising it for an other round seems to be unfair to me, if you 'calculate' DEX ranks. Your 'DEX calculation' could now be simplified by saying 'the orc loses its next action' - no calculation needed.

No, the orc has lost nothing but a single round of combat. If the orc normally acts at DEX rank 11, he has already performed an action in the first round.

Again, if you assume there are 15 DEX ranks in a round (the highest DEX rank is 20 and the lowest is 5), then the orc will lose 15 DEX ranks. No matter where the stun begins effect, or where the orc normally would act. Once the stun effect wears off, he can still defend.

Yes, you can say the orc loses his next action in this particular case, but if the orc has more than one action available because it can act in DEX rank 11 and DEX rank 6, then losing the next action would not be equal to a combat round, it would be less.

Ian

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Fairly speaking it's not a complicated situation nor a high detail occasion to count "by the book" the duration of an effect that starts inside the Actions phase(the most obscure situation is a special crushing blow that resolves to a stunned target. see first thread). It's just core mechanics.

According to BRP one Combat round starts with the Statements phase and ends in the Resolution phase. Thus the definition of one combat round is not connected with Strike or DEX ranks. So for an effect that resolves in the Actions phase one Combat round has passed has passed at the beginning of the next round. This is quiet unfair for a slow fat dwarf with a hammer but that's life...

On the other hand if one combat round is passed at the Resolution phase of the next round thinks mess up... I guess that a distinction between 1dX combat rounds and 1dX full combat rounds is needed if the previous paragraph is not correct.

Edited by carrock
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see my example definition above (in the thread). I still think you are overcomplicating the issue. Im interested though how your power rules work, if a character casts a spell at INT 16 and the spell needs one round to get off. Does that mean it will go off at INT 16 the 'next round', even if the rules say spells go off at the beginning of a round? If so, does INT 16 take place before DEX 16?

Bad example since spells cost a single DEX rank per level to cast, and are cast at the appropriate DEX rank. By the book, INT does not come into play, you use the character's DEX rank. And, by the book, a spell cast by a character with an INT of 16 goes off at DEX rank 16 minus each spell level, or, at the earliest, DEX rank 15. Any actions occurring in the same DEX rank are resolved as if they happened simultaneously. At least that is my recollection since I do not have the book at hand, and I am using the playtest docs as a reference. The playtest docs also use the example of INT of 16 equating to DEX rank 16.

I personally do not like splitting the Powers phase off of the Action phase since, IMHO, casting spells and using powers are still actions. What I rule is that if a power of any sort requires a physical trigger, then the DEX rank in the Action phase is the place to resolve that trigger or begin any necessary count down, applying any necessary modifiers (such as spell levels). For innate powers (or super powers, though I hardly play supers) that do not require a trigger, but are instantaneous, I either go with the INT of the character setting the DEX rank, or the power goes off at the very beginning of the Action phase. I also define the Powers I have in play with a base DEX rank if they do not require any action or thought to trigger.

Ian

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That would leave the orc in a big disadvantage, as it already 'lost' 9 DEX ranks. Penalising it for an other round seems to be unfair to me, if you 'calculate' DEX ranks. Your 'DEX calculation' could now be simplified by saying 'the orc loses its next action' - no calculation needed.

If the round is divided into 15 DEX ranks, then so far, the orc has only lost 9 of the 15 DEX ranks, and still has 6 more to go before a full combat round has passed.

Ian

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The Laundry, p54:

"When the last character involved in the round has completed

their resolution phase and the DEX rank countdown

reaches 0, any potential effects that are ‘once per round’ or

anything that lasts for the duration of the round ends at this

time. This might include poisons, acid, fire, sorcery or other

miscellaneous conditions."

Going from here, I would say a one round stun effect ends at DEX rank 0, giving other characters the chance to make an Easy attack against the stunned target. A two round stun effect would last until the DEX rank 0 of the following round.

The problem with this rule (and the application of the end of the combat round being the end of the Action phase in that round) is that if our example orc is stunned by the character who acted last in the round, the effects of the stun immediately wear off - or, for all intents and purposes (and game effect), the orc is never stunned. He is back to full capability starting the next round.

One thing I think people over focusing on is the fact that the stunned character loses their action(s) for a full combat round, and assuming that is the vital/critical effect. It isn't. The real problem with being stunned is the fact that the character is considered "prone" - i.e. its only defense is the armor (if any) it is wearing. A prone character is not allowed to parry or dodge. Again, looking at our example orc (using a slightly modified example to clarify the point) , who normally acts on DEX rank 15, but is hit and stunned on DEX rank 10, the orc goes to the end of the round, and the beginning of the next (until DEX rank 10) prone. It cannot perform an "active" action at its normal DEX rank 15, AND, it cannot parry/dodge until DEX rank 10. If you just rule that the orc loses its very next action (even if it only is allowed one action per round), it would still be allowed to parry/dodge between DEX ranks 15 and 10, or a full 5 DEX ranks before a full combat round (counting by DEX ranks) has passed.

Or, using the example of the orc being stunned at the very end of the combat round, and using the rule that a combat round lasts until the end of the current combat round, not only is the orc allowed to make its normal attack at DEX rank 15, but it is allowed to parry/dodge at the very beginning of the next round (in our example, DEX rank 20). In other words, the orc has suffered no ill effects of the stun in this example.

Ian

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Fairly speaking it's not a complicated situation nor a high detail occasion to count "by the book" the duration of an effect that starts inside the Actions phase(the most obscure situation is a special crushing blow that resolves to a stunned target. see first thread). It's just core mechanics.

According to BRP one Combat round starts with the Statements phase and ends in the Resolution phase. Thus the definition of one combat round is not connected with Strike or DEX ranks. So for an effect that resolves in the Actions phase one Combat round has passed has passed at the beginning of the next round. This is quiet unfair for a slow fat dwarf with a hammer but that's life...

On the other hand if one combat round is passed at the Resolution phase of the next round thinks mess up... I guess that a distinction between 1dX combat rounds and 1dX full combat rounds is needed if the previous paragraph is not correct.

The definition is correct - that is the definition of a single combat round. Let's break it down into phases - a combat round consists of, by definition:

1) Statements phase

2) Powers phase

3) Actions phase

4) Resolution phase

Now, let's assume that something occurs in the middle of the Actions phase, which has a lasting effect of one combat round. Where do you start counting the combat round? Do you backtrack to the Statements phase? Do you backtrack to the Powers phase? Or, do you begin tracking the round in the Actions phase when the event occurs? Logically, you would start in the Actions phase when the event occurs. Now, how would you count out a full combat round if you start in the Actions phase? Do you just run through the Actions phase, and then the Resolution phase, and declare the effects that were supposed to last a full combat round over? If so, the effects have not lasted a full combat round, because they have only lasted through the Actions phase and the Resolution phase, but the Statements phase and the Powers phase were not considered, or, more bluntly, you have only counted through two of the four phases that make up a combat round. But, if you also count through the following round's Statements and Powers phases, you have now stepped through all four phases that make up an entire combat round.

Ian

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Exactly. But in the book it doesn't says one full combat round for the special crushing effect... It says one combat round.

I would say that by definition those are the same. If something lasts a combat round, it must last through all four phases since that is what a combat round is defined as consisting of.

This also makes sense when you apply the rules regarding Powers that take a combat round to manifest - you must complete the Powers phase, the Actions phase, the Resolution phase, then go to the next round's Statements phase, and finally the Power takes effect at the beginning of that round's Powers phase. You have stepped through all four phases that make up a combat round.

And, again, by extension of stepping through all four phases to define a combat round (or a full combat round), if something begins effect in the middle of the Actions phase, for consistency, I would have a (full) combat round expire on the same DEX rank (or Strike rank) of the following combat round.

It really is simple to implement, it makes sense, and even with a lot of combatants, is fairly easy to track. I just list all combatants in each DEX rank (or Strike rank) at the beginning of combat. It rarely changes (especially if using DEX ranks since it is based upon DEX and not SIZ or weapon reach or encumbrance). And, if you have many combatants, you are already either tracking armor and HP, or you have instituted some sort of "mook" rules, which you can also apply to DEX/Strike ranks.

Ian

Edited by vagabond
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eh, where do the rules say a stunned character goes prone? What I see is the rules say:

"A stunned target cannot attack while stunned, and can only attempt to dodge or parry an attack if he or she makes a successful Idea roll for each attempt. Furthermore, all attacks against the target are made as if Easy actions. The stunned target can attempt to flee, but to do so requires a successful Idea roll to discern an escape path and a successful Agility roll to get out of danger." - p195

Nothing about being prone.

And the rule I stated earlier was not mine, but it is out of "The Laundry" rulebook.

And yes, if you stun an orc that has already acted, and the stun effect starts the current round, there still is an game effect: all further attacks against this orc during the current round are Easy.

It is unfortunate, if there is nobody left how might attack after the stun effect takes place, but such is life.

Maybe it is just a matter of taste and game style. I think it does not really matter when the effects of a stun take place and when the effects wear off. This is BRP, and not GURPS or HERO! If your rule interpretation works with your group, that is all right. We play it different, and it is still fun. The most important part is the rules are applied in the same way every time the situation comes up.

As long as that is true, no player will object - except for Munchkins and rules lawyers, which I simply overrule during a game session, because I am the GM, the final Judge.

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The definition is correct - that is the definition of a single combat round. Let's break it down into phases - a combat round consists of, by definition:

1) Statements phase

2) Powers phase

3) Actions phase

4) Resolution phase

Now, let's assume that something occurs in the middle of the Actions phase, which has a lasting effect of one combat round. Where do you start counting the combat round? Do you backtrack to the Statements phase? Do you backtrack to the Powers phase? Or, do you begin tracking the round in the Actions phase when the event occurs? Logically, you would start in the Actions phase when the event occurs. Now, how would you count out a full combat round if you start in the Actions phase? Do you just run through the Actions phase, and then the Resolution phase, and declare the effects that were supposed to last a full combat round over? If so, the effects have not lasted a full combat round, because they have only lasted through the Actions phase and the Resolution phase, but the Statements phase and the Powers phase were not considered, or, more bluntly, you have only counted through two of the four phases that make up a combat round. But, if you also count through the following round's Statements and Powers phases, you have now stepped through all four phases that make up an entire combat round.

Do I get this right: If the orc is stunned at DEX 10 and the effect would wear until DEX 10 next round, it would be unable to act further during phase 4 of this round (sure, that's where everybody agrees so far).

Now, the new round starts at phase 1, but since the orc is still stunned until DEX 10, it is unable to do any actions during phase 1-2, because it is stunned. That means the orc is essentially stunned until the end of DEX 0, because it cannot state/declare any actions during phase 1?

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Do I get this right: If the orc is stunned at DEX 10 and the effect would wear until DEX 10 next round, it would be unable to act further during phase 4 of this round (sure, that's where everybody agrees so far).

Now, the new round starts at phase 1, but since the orc is still stunned until DEX 10, it is unable to do any actions during phase 1-2, because it is stunned. That means the orc is essentially stunned until the end of DEX 0, because it cannot state/declare any actions during phase 1?

You are mixing up abstract game management divisions of time that affect the player and GM (the four phases) with the sequencing that affects the characters and NPCs actions "in" the game (DEX Ranks). Of course the GM or player controlling the orc would get to make statements / declare actions in phase 1 - but those actions would be constrained by the fact the orc is stunned until DEX rank 10.

Cheers,

Nick

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Do I get this right: If the orc is stunned at DEX 10 and the effect would wear until DEX 10 next round, it would be unable to act further during phase 4 of this round (sure, that's where everybody agrees so far).

Now, the new round starts at phase 1, but since the orc is still stunned until DEX 10, it is unable to do any actions during phase 1-2, because it is stunned. That means the orc is essentially stunned until the end of DEX 0, because it cannot state/declare any actions during phase 1?

During phases 1 and 2, the orc cannot make any declarations during the Statements phase that relate to attack, and the orc cannot invoke any powers in the Powers phase that relate to attack since the orc may not attack while stunned. The orc may declare an attempt to flee as per the rules, and may do so during its normal DEX rank even if stunned, with the necessary Idea and Agility rolls, or the orc can defer its escape until after the stun effects wear off.

Ian

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I wanted a logical solution why Ian said the orc would not be able to attack in the next round at a later DEX rank. ;)

Anyway, I think it is like I said before: everyone has his/her own interpretation of a combat round.

Even the amount of time can be flexible as the rules say, so I do not see a point why the definition of a combat round can not be flexible as well :)

Whatever works for a group might not work for an other, but as long as the rules are applied every time in the same way, it should not be a problem.

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I wanted a logical solution why Ian said the orc would not be able to attack in the next round at a later DEX rank. ;)

Anyway, I think it is like I said before: everyone has his/her own interpretation of a combat round.

Even the amount of time can be flexible as the rules say, so I do not see a point why the definition of a combat round can not be flexible as well :)

Whatever works for a group might not work for an other, but as long as the rules are applied every time in the same way, it should not be a problem.

Actually, on second thought, I agree that the orc can plan for an attack after the stun effects wear off. However, any benefit gained by delaying such an attack should not be applied. Basically, for the round in which the stun effects wear off, the orc has a temporary DEX rank of the DEX rank the effects go away (assuming it would normally attack earlier in the round when the stun effects are still in play).

Anyway, I contacted Jason, and he will take a look at the thread when he gets a chance.

Ian

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so, as a summary, would this be correct?

Clarification: Combat Round and Stun effect

Assume there is a combat between an orc and a knight. The orc acts at DEX 16, the knight at DEX 10. The knight is able to stun the orc at DEX 10 for one round. Now, the rules do not give a clear definition about how this round is handled, so here is a short explanation:

The orc is stunned for the remainder of the current round. It can plan for an attack after the stun effects wear off the next round. However, any benefit gained by delaying such an attack should not be applied. Basically, for the round in which the stun effects wear off, the orc has a temporary DEX rank of the DEX rank the effects go away (assuming it would normally attack earlier in the round when the stun effects are still in play).

For the situation mentioned earlier that would mean, the orc looses all its actions until the next round, DEX 10. Then it could act again, but it would not benefit from a delayed action - so it would not be able to attack before the knight would.

If there would be more knights attacking the orc, they would gain the benefits of attacking a stunned target (e.g. all attacks are made Easy) until the combat round where the stun wears off.

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:-) looks that we all do agree now !

BTW: Jason Durall?

Yes, Jason Durall.

He's been pretty busy with his "day job", as well as working on Interplanetary and other projects. But, we IM'd briefly and he will probably look over this thread when he gets a chance.

ian

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I am still not 100% behind allowing the deferred attack.

1) This creates a situation where the character who is stunned and loses his action in the current round is placed at a significant disadvantage over a character who is stunned after performing an action in the current round, but who would be stunned during his DEX rank in the next round. While both characters would be at a disadvantage defensively for the same period of time, the latter character would not lose any actions, just have them deferred.

2) Considering the rules for being stunned, a character must roll a successful Idea roll to be able to parry or dodge while stunned, and considering a parry/dodge is a purely reaction based action, and a character may attempt to flee with successful Idea and Agility rolls, allowing the character to defer the attack at no penalty seems too generous.

3) Being able to use the Statements phase to defer an attack is considered a tactical choice. A stunned character should not be able to choose to defer an attack until such a time that they are no longer stunned.

Considering these points, I am still leaning towards disallowing a deferred attack for consistency. Optionally, I would consider allowing a deferred attack if the stunned character succeeds at an Idea roll during his normal DEX rank, and/or applying a penalty to the deferred attack to represent shaking off the stun effects during the heat of battle in that round. I can see where a character with a better DEX rank might deserve some advantage over one with a lower DEX rank, I do not think the advantage should be as great.

Ian

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1) I think it is a valid advantage of being faster. A character with a higher DEX rank is able to 'adapt' to the situation in the next round and so can use his advantage to still make an attack roll - even if that happens at a later DEX rank caused by the stun.

2) the character would still be the last one attacking during that DEX rank

3) ok, that is a valid point. Maybe the stunned character should be urged to make his decisions for the following round before anybody else. So he looses any advantage.

If you disallow the deferred attack, it would make counting DEX ranks for stunned characters useless, as they simply are not allowed to act the following round at all. Not a bad idea though. :)

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