1 combat round?

[vagabond]

1) I think it is a valid advantage of being faster. A character with a higher DEX rank is able to 'adapt' to the situation in the next round and so can use his advantage to still make an attack roll - even if that happens at a later DEX rank caused by the stun.

IMHO, this is a yes and no. I'll explain it in detail later.

2) the character would still be the last one attacking during that DEX rank

Yes, I agree. I am also debating whether or not to just allow the attack to occur at DEX rank 1, with any necessary Idea rolls and/or other penalty. Again, I will explain this later.

3) ok, that is a valid point. Maybe the stunned character should be urged to make his decisions for the following round before anybody else. So he looses any advantage.

Again, I'll touch on this later.

If you disallow the deferred attack, it would make counting DEX ranks for stunned characters useless, as they simply are not allowed to act the following round at all. Not a bad idea though.

Not really. You still need to track the stun effect with respect to parry/dodge and flee/disengage. While stunned, a successful Idea roll is needed, when the stun effects wear off, things return to normal. Also, you need to track when the stun effects wear off for characters who can attack multiple times in a round since at some point, they will get their normal attack back. This is also true characters who normally attack at a DEX rank that comes after the stun effects wear off. So, regardless, you still need to track DEX ranks for stunned characters even if in a particular case the character does not get an action.

Anyway, here is the more detailed explanation of my position on this matter.

Considering multiple scenarios, where you have an orc A that can act at DEX rank 6, an orc B that can act at DEX rank 11, and an orc C that can act on DEX ranks 16, 11 and 6 (I use orc for brevity - three letters are much easier to type ) And, we will assume that our example orc is stunned on DEX rank 10 in combat round 1. I will ignore parry/dodge and disengage since all three are equally affected.

If the rule is that a stunned character loses its action during any DEX rank the effect of being stunned, here are our scenarios:

orc A loses his action at DEX rank 6 in round 1, but regains full capability in round 2 at DEX rank 6. Net loss is one action, and the orc can act without penalty in the round the stun wears off.

orc B loses his action at DEX rank 11 in round 2, and may not act again until round 3 at DEX rank 11. Net loss is one action, but the orc cannot act in the round in which the stun wears off.

orc C loses his actions at DEX rank 6 in round 1, and DEX ranks 16 and 11 in round 2, but regains full capability in round 2 at DEX rank 6. Net loss is three actions, but the orc can act without penalty in the round the stun wears off.

So, the real loser in this scenario is orc C since he loses three actions. But, then again, the whole reason the orc has those multiple actions is due to high skill and DEX, and since the stun impacts him for a whole round, it does make sense in some way - his ability to act and take advantage of his high skill and DEX should be hampered by the effects of the stun. Yes, orc B loses his action in round 2 while orc A doesn't, the reverse is also true in that orc B acted in round 1 but orc A did not.

So, in some respects, I like this method because it is clean and fairly equal. However, as I hinted at above, there might be a reasonable way to give higher DEX and higher skilled characters a slight benefit at the expense of a little extra bookkeeping and rules application (and some additional extrapolation of the rules).

Since being stunned means that a) a character cannot attack (and, in my view, perform any action that requires a clear mind such as spell use or tactical planning), and can only dodge, parry (or block) and disengage with a successful Idea roll (to represent overcoming the mental effects of the stun to attempt an intrinsically innate and instinctive reaction - also noting that the disengage also requires an Agility roll) leads me to this: a character who is stunned cannot make any tactical decisions while stunned due to the mental effects of being stunned. In other words, a stunned character cannot choose to defer their attack if the attack would normally occur during a DEX rank while the character is stunned. Their mental state does not allow this. Since one normally chooses to defer their attack on their DEX rank, this makes sense. However, for characters who have a high enough DEX (and this also applies to characters with a high enough skill to allow for multiple attacks/actions), any actions which are not available during the period when the character is stunned, are automatically deferred to being the last action in the DEX rank in which the effects of the stun wear off, or in the case of characters with multiple attacks/actions, the DEX rank when the stun wears off, and then 5 DEX ranks later, and so on until they can no longer act. However, to utilize this automatic delay, a successful Idea roll must be made once per delayed action, and, optionally, some sort of penalty is applied to represent the fact that the character is still shaking off the effects of the stun.

Using our example orcs above, and the combat situation, here are our scenarios:

orc A loses his action at DEX rank 6 in round 1, but regains full capability in round 2 at DEX rank 6. Net loss is one action, and the orc can act without penalty in the round the stun wears off.

orc B has a delayed action at DEX rank 10 in round 2 with a successful Idea roll and, optionally, at some penalty. Net loss is potentially none, and the orc may be able to attack with penalty in the round the stun wears off.

orc C loses his actions at DEX rank 6 in round 1, and DEX potentially ranks 16 and 11 in round 2, but regains full capability in round 2 at DEX rank 6. Net loss is three actions, but the orc can act without penalty in the round the stun wears off. Optionally, the orc may choose the option of using the delayed actions as such - at the end of DEX rank 10 the orc may, with a successful Idea roll and optionally, with some penalty, take an action, choose to skip the action that normally occurs at DEX rank 11, and use their third action that would normally occur in DEX rank 6 at full capability at DEX rank 5 (5 ranks after the action taken at DEX rank 10). Net loss is potentially two actions, but the orc may be able to attack twice, once with penalty and once without, in the round that the stun wears off.

While a little more complex, I like this approach since it does give some benefit to both higher DEX and higher skilled characters. Taking both rounds into consideration:

orc A loses his action in round 1, but keeps his action in round 2. Net loss is one action, but still gets a normal action over the two rounds where the stun is in play, or, he retains one out of two actions over both rounds.

orc B has an action in round 1, and may have an action in round 2 at, optionally, some penalty. With a failed Idea roll, net loss is one action, but the he still acted in round 1. With a successful Idea roll, there is no net loss, he acted normally in round 1 and with penalty and delay in round 2, so he still retains two out of two actions over both rounds.

orc C has two actions in round 1, and may have two actions in round 2, one with, optionally, some penalty. With a failed Idea roll, net loss is three actions, but he still acted normally twice in round 1 and once in round 2. With a successful Idea roll, there is a net loss of two actions (DEX rank 6 in round 1 and DEX rank 11 in round 2), but he acted normally twice in round 1 (DEX ranks 16 and 11), with penalty and delay in round 2 (DEX rank 10), and normally but with slight delay in round 2 (DEX rank 5), or he loses two actions, but retains four out of a possible six actions over both rounds.

Again, it is a little more complex, but does give you a nice "heat of the battle" feel, and the higher DEX and skilled opponents still retain some measure of their normal advantage even when taking the effects of the stun into account.

Ian

[pansophy]

so, to summarise:

- a stunned character looses all his actions during the current round

- attacks against a stunned character are Easy as long as the stun wears (DEX ranks)

- a stunned character may try Idea rolls as actions during the last round he is stunned, at each DEX rank he could normally act if not stunned

- each successful Idea roll will delay the action rolled for 5 DEX ranks

- if this delayed action still falls onto a 'stunned DEX rank', or the action would be at DEX rank 0 or below, the action is lost

- otherwise the character might act normally

correct?

[Merak Gren]

There are a lot of workable solutions above, but I'm a lazy GM and don't like book keeping. Rather than track DEX ranks, I'd rule that 1 round Stun is active from the moment the effect happens to the end of the next FULL round. For me it means 'at least 1 round stun'

[vagabond]

so, to summarise:

- a stunned character looses all his actions during the current round

- attacks against a stunned character are Easy as long as the stun wears (DEX ranks)

- a stunned character may try Idea rolls as actions during the last round he is stunned, at each DEX rank he could normally act if not stunned

- each successful Idea roll will delay the action rolled for 5 DEX ranks

- if this delayed action still falls onto a 'stunned DEX rank', or the action would be at DEX rank 0 or below, the action is lost

- otherwise the character might act normally

correct?

Yes, actually- that is a little cleaner than my example. It covers orc C in that his action normally at DEX rank 16 would be attempted at DEX rank 11, but since he is still stunned, he must forgo that action. His action normally taken at DEX rank 11 can be attempted at DEX rank 6 if the Idea roll succeeds. His action normally taken at DEX rank 6 may be attempted at DEX rank 1, no Idea roll necessary since the stun effects have worn off. This is a nice way to incur the "penalty" as well - the orc acts a little later than in my example.

Ian

[pansophy]

OK, I wil put that up into the WiKi then as a rules clarification together with your last example.

@Merak Gren: Yours is a nice optional rule I will include as well I think there are a lot people out there already doing it the way you suggested (myself included).

[pansophy]

It's in the WiKi now, here's the URL:

http://basicroleplaying.com/wiki/doku.php?id=appendices:unofficial_errata_and_clarificarions

Edited January 24, 2011 by pansophy

[simonh]

I'm sympathetic to the idea that a character that could normally split attacks on ranks 16, 11 and 6, who is stunned until rank 10 should still be able to get an attack in on rank 6.

But that's as far as I'd go. No delaying actions from while the stun is in effect, and I'd insist on the attack at rank 6 be at a reduced skill chance as though the character had split attacks normally that round.

Simon Hibbs

[pansophy]

I'm sympathetic to the idea that a character that could normally split attacks on ranks 16, 11 and 6, who is stunned until rank 10 should still be able to get an attack in on rank 6.

But that's as far as I'd go. No delaying actions from while the stun is in effect, and I'd insist on the attack at rank 6 be at a reduced skill chance as though the character had split attacks normally that round.

Hi Simon, your rule is added to the "Unofficial Errata" as an option in the WiKi

[Jeffrywith1e]

It's in the WiKi now, here's the URL:

http://basicroleplaying.com/wiki/doku.php?id=appendices:unofficial_errata_and_clarificarions

This link isn't working for me. It links directly to a non-existent site. And cut-n-pasting it leads to "This topic does not exist yet".

[pansophy]

This link isn't working for me. It links directly to a non-existent site. And cut-n-pasting it leads to "This topic does not exist yet".

corrected the link above.

http://basicroleplaying.com/wiki/doku.php?id=appendices:unofficial_errata_and_clarificarions

[rust]

This link isn't working for me. It links directly to a non-existent site.

This one should work, despite the spelling error:

http://basicroleplaying.com/wiki/doku.php?id=appendices:unofficial_errata_and_clarificarions

[pansophy]

Damn, created a new site without the error:

http://basicroleplaying.com/wiki/doku.php?id=appendices:unofficial_errata_and_clarifications

Edited January 24, 2011 by pansophy

[vagabond]

I'm sympathetic to the idea that a character that could normally split attacks on ranks 16, 11 and 6, who is stunned until rank 10 should still be able to get an attack in on rank 6.

But that's as far as I'd go. No delaying actions from while the stun is in effect, and I'd insist on the attack at rank 6 be at a reduced skill chance as though the character had split attacks normally that round.

Simon Hibbs

That's pretty much how I am going to apply things in all of my BRP adaptations. While going through this thread was a great exercise, for me, the optimal solution is to:

1) For the purpose of tracking the effects of something that last some increment of whole/full combat rounds, count from DEX rank to DEX rank.

2) The effects are in full play for the duration

3) Actions return to normal after the effects wear off. If multiple actions are in play, if delaying an action is not possible, then actions that are available due to having multiple actions must be resolved as if all actions prior were attempted.

Ian