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3 hours ago, radmonger said:

A rune cult, by definition, must have rune priests or lords, and, unless using some special-case workaround, will have temples. A keen Orlanthi may well be able to name as many thunder brothers as a comics fan can superheroes. But there isn't the population, or level of economic development, in dragon pass to give every thunder brother their own full-time religious hierarchy.

That's what Associate Priests, or God-Talkers are for, allowing someone to be a Priest of Orlanth and Hedkoranth, for example.

3 hours ago, radmonger said:

nstead, there are clans who honor some particular ancestor, as the Haraborn of Six Seasons in Sartar do, getting their own unique rune magic in return. And there will be transient spirit cults, led by an individual shaman. These provide access to one or another this year, but as to next year, who can say.

Otherwise they are just a name and set of stories. Like some minor marvel superhero, they _could_ be turned into box office magic, and they very likely have fans who think that _should_ be done[1]. A single creative can drive the publication of a comic book so long as they retain interest in it. Some of the people who do this literally call themselves shamans[2].

I see the relationship between the Thunder Brothers and Orlanth as like a Venn Diagram with a great big oval for Orlanth and many smaller ovals with most of the smaller ovals in the Orlanth oval with little bits sticking out. Those little bits are the rare temples to those deities.

Personally, I have never been a fan of the idea that all the Thunder Brothers are just aspects of Orlanth. Using the same logic, Orlanth, Storm Bull, Humakt, Kolat, Vadrus and Ragnaglar are just part of Umath. Sure, they are, but devolving makes them separate, in the same was that the Thunder Brothers devolved from Orlanth and are separate.

Most of the Thunder Brothers are Sub-Cults of Orlanth and have Shrines in Orlanth Temples. In my Glorantha, worshippers of Orlanth and the individual Thunder Brother maintain the Shrines inside Orlanth Temples. 

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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

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5 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Most of the Thunder Brothers are Sub-Cults of Orlanth and have Shrines in Orlanth Temples. In my Glorantha, worshippers of Orlanth and the individual Thunder Brother maintain the Shrines inside Orlanth Temples. 

 

Not sure what we are disagreeing about; that is exactly what it means to not  be'full cults'. They don't have their own independant temples, or magically-enforced initiation status. The RQ;G rules about leaving and joining rune cults do not apply. They do not have their own entry in any planned cults book. They are not playable cults to be chosen by a player; noone should be writing 'initiate of  thunder brother #43' on their character sheet.

Orlanthi are not monotheists and are perfectly capable of worshipping multiple deities at the same temple, as most real-world polytheist religions do. They just have temple wyters who do a bit more visible and obvious magic than most real-world religions claim to. This includes magically knowing who is, and isn't, a cult initiate.

The distinction between aspects and distinct deities only comes up once you go beyond a simple shrine. OT and OA are aspects as they can share a temple and have everything magically work out. in contrast, Buserian and Irripi Ontor are canonically known not to be aspects of each other, despite their many similarities.

This is demonstrated whenever the lunar empire stations its imperial clerks in the local knowledge temple. It doesn't matter how long that arrangement continues, you still have two distinct groups of people, not one unified organisation.

I do look forward to the 100-volume 'sub-cults of Sartar' that will no doubt come out one day. But I fear the audience for that might be somewhat limited.

 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, radmonger said:

 

Not sure what we are disagreeing about; that is exactly what it means to not  be'full cults'. They don't have their own independant temples, or magically-enforced initiation status. The RQ;G rules about leaving and joining rune cults do not apply. They do not have their own entry in any planned cults book. They are not playable cults to be chosen by a player; noone should be writing 'initiate of  thunder brother #43' on their character sheet.

Orlanthi are not monotheists and are perfectly capable of worshipping multiple deities at the same temple, as most real-world polytheist religions do. They just have temple wyters who do a bit more visible and obvious magic than most real-world religions claim to. This includes magically knowing who is, and isn't, a cult initiate.

The distinction between aspects and distinct deities only comes up once you go beyond a simple shrine. OT and OA are aspects as they can share a temple and have everything magically work out. in contrast, Buserian and Irripi Ontor are canonically known not to be aspects of each other, despite their many similarities.

This is demonstrated whenever the lunar empire stations its imperial clerks in the local knowledge temple. It doesn't matter how long that arrangement continues, you still have two distinct groups of people, not one unified organisation.

I do look forward to the 100-volume 'sub-cults of Sartar' that will no doubt come out one day. But I fear the audience for that might be somewhat limited.

 

 

 

There's a Cults of Sartar chapter of the book that has a dozen or two minor cults.

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I guess that a lot of the Thunder Brothers will be described in the Prosopaedia. The gods interacted with them and they are mentioned in the myths.

But why would a 15 yo heortling who is initiating as an adult choose to initiate in Rigsdal when they can choose Orlanth? Orlanth is the most common cult among male heortlings and gives status and great divine power. A cult needs initiates. And most people will want to belong to a community. They dont want to be the only person in their clan who belongs to a cult where the only shrine is in another part of Sartar.

Sub-cults are another thing. An Orlanth initiate who is a shepherd would probably also worship Voriof. A citizen of Boldhome may worship Sartar. Orlanth initiates belonging to cults may also worship someone who was important for their clan before the Dawn. But Orlanth will still be their main cult.

There may be other reasons to join a smaller cult. Like a redsmith worshipping Gustbran. But that is another thing. I guess most male Gustbran initiates in Sartar are lay members to Orlanth and participates in Orlanth high holy days and such things.

Edited by Soccercalle
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On 2/28/2023 at 10:27 AM, Jeff said:

And grognards really grumble when a big announcement is made for a much broader audience. Sure we all knew what was going on, but we have had nearly 100k people view the twitter announcement, and some 30k people have watched the video between FB, Twitter, and YT. That is a tremendous boost to RQ.  

 

New to Runequest. My favorite genre is Sword and Sorcery followed by Dark/Gothic Fantasy. When it comes to fantasy cultures, I prefer ones based on Vikings, Celts, and Iron Age Germanic tribes. But since I also really love fantasy religions and myths, the announcement has given me the push to look into Runequest. I don't even know what books are in the pipeline, so this is all new to me. 

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1 hour ago, Starglyte said:

New to Runequest. My favorite genre is Sword and Sorcery followed by Dark/Gothic Fantasy. When it comes to fantasy cultures, I prefer ones based on Vikings, Celts, and Iron Age Germanic tribes. But since I also really love fantasy religions and myths, the announcement has given me the push to look into Runequest. I don't even know what books are in the pipeline, so this is all new to me. 

 

Welcome aboard, Starglyte! 

 

So, grognards and grumblers alike, be warned. The floodgates are opened with the coming of these magnificent looking 10 books. Newcomers will be arriving hats in hand, looking about wondering what all the fuss is about... it may behoove us to be more welcoming of those who enter and less... well grumbly and grognardly...eh?

So, welcome! Enjoy.
There is much to take in here. 

 

Edited by Bill the barbarian
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3 hours ago, radmonger said:

no one should be writing 'initiate of  thunder brother #43' on their character sheet.

Sure, but if they want to have #43 — or #943, who no one else has ever heard of — as a personal god with a little shrine at home (or a tattoo, or an amulet) — no cult, no scary initiation ritual, no game mechanical effect — they should go ahead. Who is it hurting? It is an aspect of IRL religion that Glorantha could usefully take on: there is more to devotion than “public” religion (cult) and chasing the next “killer app” bit of magic. Players can be creative without stepping on anyone else’s toes, and characters can put the poly in their polytheism without having to worry about the steady accumulation of tithes and spirits of reprisal.

NOTORIOUS VØID CULTIST

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So I have been trying to deduce all 10 books, since we have some answers in place. I’ll start with the known quantities, but after those I am not suggesting a specific order. They’re just guesses.

1. The Prospaedia

2. The Lightbringers

3. The Earth Goddesses

4. Mythology

5. The Lunar Way

6. The Water Gods

7. Darkness Gods

8. Solar Gods

9. Chaos Gods

10. ??

 

A book of Spirits? I would assume Aldrya would be under earth goddesses. Where would the World Machine go? The Cosmic Dragon? Or do they get set aside since a playable cult is not viable (but if that is the case, why would Chaos gods get a book?)

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14 minutes ago, Wheel Shield said:

10. ??

 

A book of Spirits? I would assume Aldrya would be under earth goddesses. Where would the World Machine go? The Cosmic Dragon? Or do they get set aside since a playable cult is not viable (but if that is the case, why would Chaos gods get a book?)

From earlier previews the 10th includes: the Horned Man (and an array of spirit cults) and Hykim/Mikyh (which are all the hsunchen cults).  Both have the characteristic that they are led by shamans as their "priests". 

Aldrya will be under the Earth Goddesses.  It is quite probable that Mostal is also with the Earth cults as he is a deity of those who work within the Earth.

Draconic religion is a question. Possibly could be fit in with the Shamanic cults.

14 minutes ago, Wheel Shield said:

why would Chaos gods get a book?

1) Because there are a lot of them, and

2) they are important to the overall Glorantha myths, and

3) they provide lots of evil foes for devious GM's to work with. 

Edited by jajagappa
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5 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

 

1) Because there are a lot of them, and

2) they are important to the overall Glorantha myths, and

3) they provide lots of evil foes for devious GM's to work with. 

Ah, I was not clear. I wasn’t actually questioning why Chaos would get a book, I agree with you for the reasons above.

What I meant was, ‘maybe Mostal doesn’t get in a book because mostali are not treated as a playable race’ (and as an aside the same can be said of dragonewts, if we want to also consider dragons). But I countered that argument by adding that couldn’t be the case because Chaos deities must assuredly get a book, and they’re not typically considered playable either.

sorry, I guess I was arguing with myself.

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The info was collated and posted by @7Tigers on Studio Deadcrows forums (in no particular order beyond the first 3):

Lightbringers

Orlanth
Chalana Arroy
Eurmal
Issaries
Lhankor Mhy
Barntar
Daka Fal
Foundchild
Gagarth
Heler
Humakt
Lanbril
Mastakos
Odayla
Storm Bull
Valind
Waha
Ygg
Yinkin

Earth Godesses

Ernalda
Aldrya
Asrelia
Babeester Gor
Caladra & Aurelion
Cult of the Bloody Tusk
Donandar
Eiritha
Flamal
The Grain Goddesses
Maran Gor
Mostal
Pamalt
Ty Kora Tek
Uleria
Voria

Lunar

The Seven Mothers
The Crimson Bat
Danfive Xaron
Deezola
Etyries
Hon-Eel The Artess
Hwarin Dalthippa
Irrippi Ontor
Jakaleel The Witch
Nysalor / Gbaji
Red Goddess
Teelo Norri
Yanafal Tarnils
Yara Aranis

Darkness

Kyger Litor
Annilla
Aranea
Argan Argar
Gorakiki
Himile
Inora
Subere
Xentha
Xiola Umbar
Zorak Zoran

Chaos

Primal Chaos
Bagog
Cacodemon
Krarsht
Krjalk
Mallia
Pocharngo
Thanatar
Thed
Vivamort

Fire/Sky

Yelm
Dayzatar
Dendara
Gorgorma
Lodril
Lokarnos
The Lowfires
Ourania
Polaris
Shargash
Yelmalio
Yelorna The Starbringer

Water

Magasta
Choralinthor
Dormal
Engizi
Oslira
Triolina
Wachaza

Horned Man/Shaman

Horned Man
Black Fang
Bran
Brother Dog
Chalk Man
Dew Maid
Elk Woman
Earth Witch
Evening Star
Father of Independents
Frog Woman
Good Shepherd
Grandmother Spider
Hearth mother
Hippoi
Hungry Ghosts
Hyena
King Undine
Kolat
Lant Ulfar
Lightning Boy
Mallia
Mistress Calm
Morning Star
Night Woman
Oakfed
Pole Star
Rainbow Girl
Raven
River Horse
Robber
Sheep of Luck
Silver Deer
The Six Sisters (Bee Sister, Dolphin Sister, , Wise Frog Sister, Snake Sister, Wolf Sister, Owl Sister)
Sky River Titan (Lorian)
Stag
Sun Hawk
Thunder Bird
Travelling Stone
Twin Stars
White Princess (Inora)
White Bull
Hykim & Mikyh
Basmol the Lion God
Mralota the Sow Goddess
Pralor the Elk God
Rathor the Bear God
Telmor the Wolf God
 

 

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So, the covers say that the books will include new spells and skills unique to each cult.

Who will that be 'new' to?

Will there actually be anything really new to us who have been playing and buying for decades?

Or will the spells be what's in RBoM, and the skills the standard Sense Assassin/Chaos/Undead etc?

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19 hours ago, SDLeary said:

More importantly, I’d like to add the Digest “issues” to my local archive of the old various RQ-Digest runs.

Please note that Hardy doesn't have the bandwidth for downloading the archives, see the note at the bottom of the main page about contacting him for them. https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/

-----

Search the Glorantha Resource Site: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com. Search the Glorantha mailing list archives: https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/

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4 hours ago, David Scott said:

Please note that Hardy doesn't have the bandwidth for downloading the archives, see the note at the bottom of the main page about contacting him for them. https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/

Thanks David. Saw that and already contacted them. 
 

An initial look (via web) at the posts doesn’t look like it has the discussions I was looking for. Will check the decompressed archives later.

SDLeary

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As an aside, there have been many changes to the WIP manuscripts since they were last circulated publicly. There are more cults than listed, and many of the cults were revised since we circulated them.

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21 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

 

 

 

So, grognards and grumblers alike, be warned. The floodgates are opened with the coming of these magnificent looking 10 books. Newcomers will be arriving hats in hand, looking about wondering what all the fuss is about... it may behoove us to be more welcoming of those who enter and less... well grumbly and grognardly...eh?

 

 

Good heavens, do you think we'll be able to manage that ? I'm in my fifties now, I've been waiting for years for it to be my turn to be grumbly and grognardly

And now I might not get the chance....I want my money back.  😄 

Bah ! Humbug !

Edited by Agentorange
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2 hours ago, Agentorange said:

Good heavens, do you think we'll be able to manage that ? I'm in my fifties now, I've been waiting for years for it to be my turn to be grumbly and grognardly

I hear that (must have my hearing aid in for a change)!

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On 3/3/2023 at 12:16 PM, Starglyte said:

New to Runequest. My favorite genre is Sword and Sorcery followed by Dark/Gothic Fantasy. When it comes to fantasy cultures, I prefer ones based on Vikings, Celts, and Iron Age Germanic tribes. But since I also really love fantasy religions and myths, the announcement has given me the push to look into Runequest. I don't even know what books are in the pipeline, so this is all new to me. 

Hello, and welcome to the Tribe!

Gloranthan cultures are rather "blended."   Instead of having a "notViking" and a "notCelt" (and etc) cultures, you'll find some distinct Viking & Celtic influences in (for example) the kingdom of Sartar, but also some other influences, including Vedic India.  The Beast Riders of Prax have strong elements of north-american native tribes, mongol horsemen, and bedouin tribes.   The single clearest cultural cue is (imho) the ancient Minoan influences on the land of Esrolia.  The Lunar Empire has a distinctly Persian & Roman basis (more Roman in older books, if you track those down; more Persian in the recent ones), but with notable elements of Soviet Russia(!) and the British Empire.  Etc...

Glorantha / Runequest was famously described as a "swords & sandals" game & setting:  more ancient-world & mediterranean than medieval / dark-ages in north/central Europe.  It's Bronze-Age at the opening of the Iron Age (but with a few hinterlands still stuck in the Stone Age).

###

I commend the Starter Set to your attention.  It's chock-full of content, including multiple adventures centered around a key regional town, and the mini-sandbox of the town & environs.  4 booklets, including an intro/overview of the game-world itself, Glorantha.  Over a dozen pre-gen PC's, but no character-creation rules (you need the core rulebook for that).  As a long-time RQ fan, I was a bit on-the-fence over whether I "needed" the streamlined rules whole "starter" outlook... but the wealth of game'able content is wonderful !  The Starter Set helps, I think, in making the core rulebook more digestible; it's a less-expensive entry into the game & the world, but still valuable when you move up to the full rule-set.

The world is decidedly "humano-centric."  The "Elder Races" exist, but most places they range from unusual, to rare, to never-seen.  There are no options in the core rules to play them as PC's (you will need the "Bestiary" to follow those paths; there is a Troll-centric expansion in the works, and an Elf-centric one too).  Instead, the setting focuses mostly on humans -- their cultures, their politics, their wars, etc.

The overarching conflict is the expansion of the Lunar Empire (under Sedenya, the Red Moon Goddess) running up against the Kingdom of Sartar (most of whom worship the "Lightbringer" pantheon under the Storm-God Orlanth).  Sartar has just recently thrown off the Lunar rule, but is still gearing-up for an expected Lunar return (the Lunar history is one of waxing and waning, returning (usually stronger) from every defeat).

On a deity level, cosmic newcomer Sedenya is contesting with Orlanth for primacy over the "Middle Air" where she currently hangs, unable to ascend to the Sky Dome above.  On a cosmological level, Sedenya has embraced the primal force of Chaos, and claims to have tamed or controlled it; the Orlanthi people (and Orlanth himself) say that Chaos fundamentally cannot tamed, and the Red Moon is just the latest mask of that world-destroying force.

###

Let's return to the Elder Races for a moment, because they have some D&D-ish names but they are very much not in the "Tolkien-esque" model.  It's worth noting how very much Runequest & Glorantha differs from the 800-lb gorilla of D&D and her 500-lb child Pathfinder (as noted above, none of these are PC'able options in the core RQG rulebook or the Starter Set).

Elves are sentient plants, grown from a seed; their motivations are plant-motivations, and they mostly seek a return to the Godstime era of the "Green Age" when wildlands -- not croplands -- covered the land (this would necessarily mean reducing human population by 80% at least (this genocidal number seems... about right, to the Elves).

Dwarves are even stranger; more "made" than "born," their racial task is to repair the broken World Machine, their dead god Mostal.  They're a heavily-regimented "caste" society, but with castes that are actually made-to-order, with inborn proclivities to their intended tasks.  They are the source of much "advanced tech" in the world (such as crossbows), most of which remains solidly under dwarven control (such as their Cannon Cult).  Dwarves invented iron, which is deadly to both Elves and Trolls.

Trolls -- large, powerful, brutal, ever-hungry -- are actually the most "human-like" of the Elder Races.  One nickname for them is "Dark Men," and they are aligned with the element of Darkness (there are 6 "elements" in Glorantha -- the 4 "classical Hellenistic" set of Earth/Air/Fire/Water, plus Darkness; and a johnny-come-lately one, "Moon").  Trolls are an exile race, having fled their dark Underworld homeland back in the Godtime, when the slain Sun brought his burning light and heat there.

Dragonewts are the strangest of all.  Semi-immortal, when slain they reincarnate back in the egg they were born into, in one of their city/nests scattered around the world.  Each seeks to advance their spiritual growth (in a vaguely-Buddhist "detachment from the world" fashion), ascending through semi-evolutionary stages.  They are larval dragons, with a goal of becoming True Dragons.  Mostly they fail, devolving into one of a great many distracting pitfalls.  True Dragons are vast, deity-level beings; their mere dreams, as they sleep, take on reality and are of a scale with most RPGs' dragons.

Last but not least -- despite their stature -- I must mention ducks.  Yes, anthropomorphic ducks are a race in Glorantha.  Tragicomic figures of uncertain origin, they tend to be one of the most polarizing (to players) features of the world.  They are at least as playable as any of the others, and in many ways even more "human-like" than the Dark Men.
 

There's much, much more:  Greg Stafford's Glorantha (like Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms) has been in development since the 1960's... before RPG's were even created!  Where Ed was originally creating a kitchen-sink fantasy-world into which he could write just about any genre of fantasy story he wanted, Greg's original impetus was to look at mythology & sociology and how -- via stories -- they shaped cultures and world-views.


And here, I think, I turn off the firehose; apologies if I sprayed too long, or too much!

Edited by g33k
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