Yelmalio/Elmal again

[Eff]

One of the more interesting implications here is that Yelmalio is/was N towards Nysalor but is H towards Red Goddess. Clearly that  Rune Nysalor sports wasn't a deal-breaker in the past, so what might be the reason for the hostility towards Big S? 

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Eff said:

One of the more interesting implications here is that Yelmalio is/was N towards Nysalor but is H towards Red Goddess.

So we can take it that the Yelmalio (or Lightfore) cult was neutral toward — and exploited by — the Nysalor cult back at some point in the First Age.

Rolling back the IRL chronology — but advancing the Gloranthan one — in Cults of Terror, we have Yelmalio neutral to the non-chaotic Seven Mothers and toward the chaotic Nysalor and Crimson Bat cults. Obviously, no Red Goddess cult write-up back then, but suggestive of Yelmalio as a cult unfazed by Lunar cults, even chaotic ones. This suggests a little retconning to get old OY hostile to Sedenya, perhaps, but in principle that is harmless enough, and the idea of the Yelmalio cult as so old-school and die-hard (or not at all), that the cult will have no truck with newfangled nonsense like Time and balance has an appeal. I wouldn’t want to join it, but it is an amusing thing to have in the world. When a bunch of other gods were in the underworld being suckered into Arachne’s plan, was Yelmalio still alive and shining palely on the surface? Surely so. I like to imagine at least some Yelmalio cultists insisting that their guy never grabbed hold of any cobweb, no matter what anyone else might say, and that the Compromise is as alien to them as any other compromise. (I can even imagine Yelmalio surviving the carnage of Argrath and the Devil, because he never showed up for the showdown. In the Fourth Age, forgotten and fading like Tinkerbell, but never quite gone. “Do you believe in fairies, children?” And the remnant Yelmalians with one voice reply, “OG! OG! OG! — OY! OY! OY!” (It’s a Max Boyce thing.))

If the Yelmalio cult is still neutral toward Nysalor, perhaps it is because — per its original description, anyway — it is not an organised threat in the Third Age: on its own, nothing to worry about. I don’t usually like to ask Chaosium for anything — they should just get on with their plan at their pace — but an all-singing all-dancing online Cult Compatibility Chart with the myriad cults from the upcoming ten volumes would be an amusing resource for dorks everywhere.

[Eff]

24 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

So we can take it that the Yelmalio (or Lightfore) cult was neutral toward — and exploited by — the Nysalor cult back at some point in the First Age.

Rolling back the IRL chronology — but advancing the Gloranthan one — in Cults of Terror, we have Yelmalio neutral to the non-chaotic Seven Mothers and toward the chaotic Nysalor and Crimson Bat cults. Obviously, no Red Goddess cult write-up back then, but suggestive of Yelmalio as a cult unfazed by Lunar cults, even chaotic ones. This suggests a little retconning to get old OY hostile to Sedenya, perhaps, but in principle that is harmless enough, and the idea of the Yelmalio cult as so old-school and die-hard (or not at all), that the cult will have no truck with newfangled nonsense like Time and balance has an appeal. I wouldn’t want to join it, but it is an amusing thing to have in the world. When a bunch of other gods were in the underworld being suckered into Arachne’s plan, was Yelmalio still alive and shining palely on the surface? Surely so. I like to imagine at least some Yelmalio cultists insisting that their guy never grabbed hold of any cobweb, no matter what anyone else might say, and that the Compromise is as alien to them as any other compromise. (I can even imagine Yelmalio surviving the carnage of Argrath and the Devil, because he never showed up for the showdown. In the Fourth Age, forgotten and fading like Tinkerbell, but never quite gone. “Do you believe in fairies, children?” And the remnant Yelmalians with one voice reply, “OG! OG! OG! — OY! OY! OY!” (It’s a Max Boyce thing.))

If the Yelmalio cult is still neutral toward Nysalor, perhaps it is because — per its original description, anyway — it is not an organised threat in the Third Age: on its own, nothing to worry about. I don’t usually like to ask Chaosium for anything — they should just get on with their plan at their pace — but an all-singing all-dancing online Cult Compatibility Chart with the myriad cults from the upcoming ten volumes would be an amusing resource for dorks everywhere.

I mean, it seems very obviously the case that this is just getting the protagonistic ducks in a row. Yelmalio, like Orlanth and Ernalda, hates Red Goddess, like all the right-thinking gods and goddesses do. The orange side of the board game, opposed to the pink side. You can get some interesting questions out of carrying forward the 1980 text- why are people neutral to the Seven Mothers when they proselytize the Lunar religion that the Red Goddess is at the center of, if these are on the level of gods and not the convolutions of human beliefs? But that questioning has no answer when I ask it, it's aimed at thinking about how to play with these bits of textual statements in the context of a game. 

[Nick Brooke]

One one reading, "Yelmalio" was created by Nysalor. He is the bright spear wielded to wound Kyger Litor at the Battle of Night and Day. Prior to that, nobody had heard of the Cult of the Cold Sun, or built Sun Dome Temples to honour him. Just putting that out there.

[Nick Brooke]

Mike Dawson's "New Moon Spears" remain a fertile source of inspiration, for those who remember. Why were the Lunars so interested in excavating the ruins on Yelmalio Hill?

[mfbrandi]

16 minutes ago, Eff said:

But that questioning has no answer when I ask it, it's aimed at thinking about how to play with these bits of textual statements in the context of a game.

Sure, and nothing I say should or would be adopted by anyone else.

25 minutes ago, Eff said:

You can get some interesting questions out of carrying forward the 1980 text

There are some really fun things: Chalana Arroy is neutral to Thed, the Bat, and Nysalor, but draws the line at the relatively innocuous Primal Chaos, the untainted power of random change. I guess the demonization of Thed and Nysalor hadn’t reached its current level, yet. (Although some pretty harsh things had been said about chaos, already.)

[Eff]

4 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

There are some really fun things: Chalana Arroy is neutral to Thed, the Bat, and Nysalor, but draws the line at the relatively innocuous Primal Chaos, the untainted power of random change. I guess the demonization of Thed and Nysalor hadn’t reached its current level, yet. (Although some pretty harsh things had been said about chaos, already.)

Back in 1980, it was still possible to believe that Thed and the Crimson Bat were wounded beings in need of treatment. Of course, nowadays that's unthinkable in a literal sense- even writing that sentence caused a rain of frogs to patter down outside just now. 

[mfbrandi]

4 minutes ago, Eff said:

Back in 1980, it was still possible to believe that Thed and the Crimson Bat were wounded beings in need of treatment. Of course, nowadays that's unthinkable in a literal sense- even writing that sentence caused a rain of frogs to patter down outside just now.

Yeah, but we all like frogs, right? They are a gift from heaven. Or from the chaos ooze, which is close enough. What is unthinkable is to toe the Orlanthi line and spout the Orlanthi poetry. We have a world to play with, not just one blinkered cartoon-hillbilly POV to sink into. Or, you know, we sometimes like to think that.

Isn’t it human that if we’re told to hit something with a stick, the unfortunate piñata immediately becomes a more sympathetic figure than the idiot with the broom handle trying to beat it into fragments? Or, you know, we sometimes like to think so …

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

One one reading, "Yelmalio" was created by Nysalor. He is the bright spear wielded to wound Kyger Litor at the Battle of Night and Day. Prior to that, nobody had heard of the Cult of the Cold Sun, or built Sun Dome Temples to honour him. Just putting that out there.

Certainly the Broken Council supported and encouraged the Yelmalio cult. That was a time of Light shining in the hills and the dark places. Yelmalio's followers brought the Light to the Shadowlands and broke the resistance of the Heortlings and trolls. And Light cults were able to cooperate and see the One during that brief exciting time. 

But at the edge of the Light, new shadows gathered. Gbaji, Arkat, Zorak Zoran, and more. The light of Nysalor was extinguished, although once again Yelmalio did not submit.

[Nick Brooke]

B5 fans are seeing YO as Zathras: “Not the One. Not the One…”

[Jeff]

As an aside, there have been previous version of the Yelmalio cult WIP circulated publicly. It is worth mentioning that there have been revisions since then.

[Jeff]

On 3/3/2023 at 10:10 AM, mfbrandi said:

Sure, and nothing I say should or would be adopted by anyone else.

There are some really fun things: Chalana Arroy is neutral to Thed, the Bat, and Nysalor, but draws the line at the relatively innocuous Primal Chaos, the untainted power of random change. I guess the demonization of Thed and Nysalor hadn’t reached its current level, yet. (Although some pretty harsh things had been said about chaos, already.)

Chalana Arroy is the Goddess of Mercy. The only cults she is hostile or an enemy of are Cacodemon, Krjalk, Mallia, Pocharngo, Primal Chaos, Red Goddess, Thanatar, Vivamort, and Zorak Zoran. Everything else can be healed. Even Thed, the Bat, and Nysalor could be healed. But the others - especially Mallia, Pocharngo, Primal Chaos, and Vivamort - are beyond healing.

Interestingly, the Red Goddess is on the short list of hostiles. A quick review suggests that of the Lunar cults, she is friendly only with Etyries (she's Neutral with the rest). Perhaps the Merciful Goddess is on to something?

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Grouping the Red Goddess in with those others is a very significant change from how our group has played Glorantha, and the Red Goddess's mission, for decades.  Our Glorantha has varied! 

Hopefully the upcoming Lunar cults book will clarify the official vision.  Looking forward to it.

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Grouping the Red Goddess in with those others is a very significant change from how our group has played Glorantha, and the Red Goddess's mission, for decades.  Our Glorantha has varied! 

Hopefully the upcoming Lunar cults book will clarify the official vision.  Looking forward to it.

The Red Goddess is a profoundly problematic deity. Plenty of cults are find with the Seven Mothers and other Lunar deities, but then draw the line at the Red Goddess. A few are the reverse - associated with the Red Goddess but friendly to even hostile with other Lunar cults. 

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Even Thed, the Bat, and Nysalor could be healed.

Do you mean the deities themselves could be healed, or something else?

[Soccercalle]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

The Red Goddess is a profoundly problematic deity. Plenty of cults are find with the Seven Mothers and other Lunar deities, but then draw the line at the Red Goddess. A few are the reverse - associated with the Red Goddess but friendly to even hostile with other Lunar cults. 

Interesting. To prefer the Seven Mothers to the Red Goddess seems like to prefer the Soviet Union administration to the ideals of Socialism. Or is it that people understands the desperation of the seven heroquesters that wanted to save Dara Happa/Peloria but dislike their solution?

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Interestingly, the Red Goddess is on the short list of hostiles. A quick review suggests that of the Lunar cults, she is friendly only with Etyries (she's Neutral with the rest). Perhaps the Merciful Goddess is on to something?

They did steal her Resurrection spell so her hostility is not that unsurprising. 

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, Soccercalle said:

Interesting. To prefer the Seven Mothers to the Red Goddess seems like to prefer the Soviet Union administration to the ideals of Socialism. Or is it that people understands the desperation of the seven heroquesters that wanted to save Dara Happa/Peloria but dislike their solution?

The Seven Mothers' great deed was untouched by Chaos. The same cannot be said to be true for the Red Goddess herself.  

[Soccercalle]

6 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The Seven Mothers' great deed was untouched by Chaos. The same cannot be said to be true for the Red Goddess herself.  

How many (appr) among Lunar citizens believe that the 7M made a great deed to save the country/people but consider the Red Goddess/Emperor as evil (maybe a necessary evil)?

[Jeff]

Just now, Soccercalle said:

How many (appr) among Lunar citizens believe that the 7M made a great deed to save the country/people but consider the Red Goddess/Emperor as evil (maybe a necessary evil)?

Few if any. The Red Goddess is at the center of the Lunar religion - and by definition, all Lunar citizens are initiates of the Lunar Way.

[Erol of Backford]

On 3/2/2023 at 8:46 PM, Jeff said:

Again, that is not really the case. First the Yelmalions fought for Sartar throughout the reign of Tarkalor and Terasarin - even against the Lunar Empire. In Prax, the Yelmalions aided Dorasor, fought against the Lunars, then accepted the Lunars under the sort-of anti-, sort of pro- Count Solanthos, The Yelmalio cult is neutral towards Orlanth, but is hostile towards the Red Goddess.

I thought Sun County fought with the Lunars at the First Moonbroth? Sorry if I misunderstood this. Understood the Count has killed a few of their runelords... but that is a sort of anger managment hormone issue rather than an anti-Lunar vendetta from what I have read. (good stuff)

[Erol of Backford]

From what JohL posted: The only official Elmal-as-such writeups we've seen from Chaosium/Moon Design were for HeroQuest 2/G. Issaries era. What was the title of the publication/book, anyone?

[Jeff]

10 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

I thought Sun County fought with the Lunars at the First Moonbroth? Sorry if I misunderstood this. Understood the Count has killed a few of their runelords... but that is a sort of anger managment hormone issue rather than an anti-Lunar vendetta from what I have read. (good stuff)

The Sun Domers didn't show up to Moonbroth. That was the Lunar Empire with its Sable, Grazelanders, and dragonewt mercenaries against Bisons, Impalas, Rhino Riders, Agimori, Zebra Riders (aka Pavis Survivors), Basmoli Berserks, newtlings, Oakfed, and even a contingent of broo.

[Brian Duguid]

33 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

From what JohL posted: The only official Elmal-as-such writeups we've seen from Chaosium/Moon Design were for HeroQuest 2/G. Issaries era. What was the title of the publication/book, anyone?

Storm Tribe.

[Erol of Backford]

Not sure why I thought that, so they were neutral in Prax. Thank you Mr. Richard.

Likely not canon but: Has anyone detailed or have thoughts on the Elmal holy place at the top of Kero Fin, what elevation is it at, are there ledges or an open cave, statue or something there? Possibly its open air and facing east to see the sun rise?