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Yelmalio/Elmal again


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On 3/3/2023 at 3:01 AM, Jeff said:

There is no Elmal v. Yelmalio. They are the same god, same archetypes, and fit in the same place in cosmic mythology. We all know Yelmalio - he's that last light that survived after the Sun went to the Underworld. He's in the night sky as Lightfore, the brightest planet in the heavens, which follows the same route as the Sun. 

Elmal has no Hill of Gold Myth. Orlanth should have recognized his own loyal thane, and Elmal wouldn't have fought against Orlanth to whom he had sworn fealty.  Yelmalio is clearly a different deity.  We also know this to be true because Yelmalio was only invented recently by Monrogh.  Some old people in 1625 will remember a world before Yelmalio even existed. 

Edited by Darius West
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35 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Elmal has no Hill of Gold Myth.

Maybe (some) Elmal worshippers say this, but given that Elmal = Yelmalio, isn’t this like saying that you can’t see the Evening Star in the morning (although Hesperus = Phosphorus = Venus)?

NOTORIOUS VØID CULTIST

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Famously, when Argrath asked his adviser 'and how many divisions does the High Priest have?,  he got the answer _3_.

Noone is quite sure why that apparently mundane exchange is so frequently quoted in literature. Probably something to do with mythic resonance. 

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3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Elmal has no Hill of Gold Myth. Orlanth should have recognized his own loyal thane, and Elmal wouldn't have fought against Orlanth to whom he had sworn fealty.  Yelmalio is clearly a different deity.  We also know this to be true because Yelmalio was only invented recently by Monrogh.  Some old people in 1625 will remember a world before Yelmalio even existed. 

Elmal’s “Hill of Gold” is “Elmal Guards the Stead.” Elmal’s spear and shield end up with Orlanth; he gave them willingly and received Orlanth’s shield and regency over the Storm Tribe, sure, but that’s just a change in context. He faces three wicked foes and each leaves him broken and bleeding; the foes are different and he actually won those fights, yes, but the important part is the “left bleeding and broken but gets back up” part. One foe targets his virtue rather than his body; that virtue is loyalty rather than chastity, but nonetheless. 

These are all contextual changes, well within the scope of regional and cultural variations in worship. Relationships, motivations, and so on often differ even within a single group’s myths, much less between different ones.

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23 minutes ago, Eff said:

many Gloranthas
[...]
Many Suns

While it risks making myself especially obnoxious this parallel is striking enough that comment is required. In a pluralist fandom, some suns (or gloranthas) are often bigger than others . . . accidentally or not, they eclipse their peers to the point where they can't be distinguished with the naked eye or even spells that are no longer actively supported in the rules. It's nice to think that the smaller sun merges into the aggregate in some way so whatever aspects of experience made it unique survive the cycle but sometimes I'm sure Kargzant simply gets bridled.

The conventions of game publishing complicate this process by establishing at the start which sun will be the big one and which villages get shine while others remain bare sketch. The details still reflect the path of that big sun (corporate attention, "development," canon) but in practice as you point out deviation is actually more the rule. Everybody's glorantha must vary to fit the arc of the game you're playing, whatever that game is. We out here outside the big sun have our own tale to tell. We have our fights and our friendships, shifting angles in the fan sky to fit our orbits.

The big sun, meanwhile, is not as stable as it looks. "The personnel changes." Even the names listed in the Birth of Elmal reflect a story of punctuated disintegration as little suns get caught in the big gravity well for awhile and then slingshot out. This is still a young world. There haven't been many big suns. When we stick around, we see whether and how the big suns learn. I like to think it ultimately gets better, but remember, I for one come to glorantha for narrative experiences that are sometimes lacking here at home. This is a kind of "fantasy" setting.

It is possible but far from easy to incorporate all known and unknown canon as well as enough of the mechanisms through which fresh canon is generated. In my experience such a person can only be pleasantly surprised when the sun deviates from its anticipated course: the new trajectory still fits what is known and what is possible, but expresses all of this in a fashion that delights. For me this means generating additional possibilities, enlarging the range of what's possible by opening more doors than it shuts.

In theory, any little glorantha in isolation can drift its way into becoming a big enough sun, a big glorantha in its own right. It can also burn out. That's life. Some of these entities may no longer be gloranthas at all when it's all said and done. That's fine. Leave the sunning to the sun, we have better things to see. The current and historical suns, for example, haven't really gotten to Wenelia yet, except in glimpses from afar when they're distracted. What evolved out there?

Obviously they didn't have or need a Monrogh or a shadowy puppetmaster nudging Monrogh out of the way. But they have the Caladran pantheon nearby and probably an archival vestige of all the little light cults the God Learners cared to stockpile there when they found them in their journeying. Little suns from Teshnos, little suns from Ralios, little suns from everywhere too small to show up in the top-level surveys.

I don't think they ever really had Hill of Gold. They probably looked toward parallel ordeals and other sacred sites, looking west originally and then toward the volcano center. Horse purity on their side of the great rivalry, rain purity on the other. This was probably the dominant form of little sun husband protector in Esrolia until relatively recently. We just don't know much about it yet because the big sun has yet to shine directly on it. That's a comfort and an opportunity for little suns to pursue.

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51 minutes ago, Eff said:

You don't understand. This is a little rude to say, but you simply do not understand what I am saying and referencing and I want to make that clear.

This is true, I absolutely don't.

in play, a character gets initiated at one temple, and can worship at others. The set of such temples they can use is called a 'cult'. It will rarely be ambiguous to them which temples they have access to. If unsure, they can very likely just ask someone. people know what their religion is, and (illuminates aside) they believe it to be true. 

The exceptions are going to be things like minor cults far away, and secretive cults that hide their true nature.

I did know a guy once who only found out he was jewish on his 30th birthday. Such cases are going to be even rarer in glorantha .

I know nothing about who the Theyalan cult of the lesser sun is in Wenelia, if there is one. if i needed to know, i would make something up. Maybe what i made up would then get published on the Jonstown Compendium. if it was cool enough, maybe it would catch on, and even form a part of official canon by the 2035 20-volume update to the cults book.

i am pretty sure what i would make up wouldn't be that it used to be Elmal and then changed to Yelmalio in synchronicity with dragon pass. But something that shuffled the mythic themes around in a way that resonated with the material culture and influences of the region. And something that made internal sense to the people who followed it.

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8 minutes ago, radmonger said:

This is true, I absolutely don't.

in play, a character gets initiated at one temple, and can worship at others. The set of such temples they can use is called a 'cult'. It will rarely be ambiguous to them which temples they have access to. If unsure, they can very likely just ask someone. people know what their religion is, and (illuminates aside) they believe it to be true. 

The exceptions are going to be things like minor cults far away, and secretive cults that hide their true nature.

That all seems right to me. Vasana was initiated into the cult of Orlanth Adventurous (Vinga) at the major temple of the Colymar tribe (as is common). As an initiate she offers worship to Orlanth at all sorts of temples and shrines to the god and his aspects throughout Dragon Pass, Pavis, and the Holy Country. Vasana can travel from Clearwine to Vesmonstran and recognise things. Normally she recognises the regalia, the accoutrements, and the songs in Storm Speech - this stuff has been carried throughout Genertela over the last sixteen centuries. 

Nathem was initiated into the Bear God cult in Old Tarsh. There is little more than a few shrines to Odayla there, and Nathem wanders widely offering worship to the Sky Bear wherever he can. He travels to Syllila where there is a large and organised cult with as many people as the entire adult population of the Tarsh Exiles. It is an eye-opener, with new stories, new myths, and more. So Nathem keeps wandering, and eventually makes his way to Fronela. There he encounters the Rathor cult - and Nathem tries worship the Great Brown Bear there. Does he succeed or is that the point where the differences are too great? Dunno, sounds like a fun part of that campaign though!

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52 minutes ago, Jeff said:

That all seems right to me. Vasana was initiated into the cult of Orlanth Adventurous (Vinga) at the major temple of the Colymar tribe (as is common). As an initiate she offers worship to Orlanth at all sorts of temples and shrines to the god and his aspects throughout Dragon Pass, Pavis, and the Holy Country. Vasana can travel from Clearwine to Vesmonstran and recognise things. Normally she recognises the regalia, the accoutrements, and the songs in Storm Speech - this stuff has been carried throughout Genertela over the last sixteen centuries. 

Nathem was initiated into the Bear God cult in Old Tarsh. There is little more than a few shrines to Odayla there, and Nathem wanders widely offering worship to the Sky Bear wherever he can. He travels to Syllila where there is a large and organised cult with as many people as the entire adult population of the Tarsh Exiles. It is an eye-opener, with new stories, new myths, and more. So Nathem keeps wandering, and eventually makes his way to Fronela. There he encounters the Rathor cult - and Nathem tries worship the Great Brown Bear there. Does he succeed or is that the point where the differences are too great? Dunno, sounds like a fun part of that campaign though!

Now comes the fun one. Berensor was initiated into the Elmal cult at Famegrave, where there was a minor temple. He got caught up in the Elmal cult's conflict with the Local tribal leaders and the Sartar Dynasty, and was exiled for kinslaughter. He went to the new Sun Dome Temple in the Amber Fields and of course recognized the Elmal stuff other exiles had gathered there - and he offered worship there, and of course it was successful (he regained his Rune Points!). He swore loyalty to the Major Temple to Yelmalio there and was rewarded with a plot of land, a spear and some armor. He fought for the Sun Dome Temple against the trolls of Troll Woods, and eventually became a Light Son.

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21 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Now comes the fun one. Berensor was initiated into the Elmal cult at Famegrave, where there was a minor temple. He got caught up in the Elmal cult's conflict with the Local tribal leaders and the Sartar Dynasty, and was exiled for kinslaughter. He went to the new Sun Dome Temple in the Amber Fields and of course recognized the Elmal stuff other exiles had gathered there - and he offered worship there, and of course it was successful (he regained his Rune Points!). He swore loyalty to the Major Temple to Yelmalio there and was rewarded with a plot of land, a spear and some armor. He fought for the Sun Dome Temple against the trolls of Troll Woods, and eventually became a Light Son.

Berensor died at Grizzly Peak, fighting for King Tarkalor and the Feathered Horse Queen, along with many other Yelmalio cultists. His grandson Varthanic was initiated into the Yelmalio cult at the Sun Dome Temple. He's traveled to Prax and worshiped Yelmalio at the Sun Dome Temple there, although he found the Sun Dome cultists there to be quite backwards and extremely provincial, although the beer was excellent. 

He later traveled to Mirin's Cross, and was struck how the Sun Dome Temples maintain their identity despite the Yelm nobles from the Heartlands. The Lunar influence troubled him, and he was surprised at the semantic games the Light Priests used to avoid acknowledging Lunar supremacy. Nonetheless, the Sairdite temples had many new stories and myths. From there he went on to the Hill of Gold, where he walked those sacred grounds.

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8 hours ago, Darius West said:

Elmal has no Hill of Gold Myth. Orlanth should have recognized his own loyal thane, and Elmal wouldn't have fought against Orlanth to whom he had sworn fealty.  Yelmalio is clearly a different deity.  We also know this to be true because Yelmalio was only invented recently by Monrogh.  Some old people in 1625 will remember a world before Yelmalio even existed. 

Prior to Harmast Barefoot, Orlanth myths didn't include a Lightbringer's Quest.

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10 minutes ago, Dr. Devici said:

Prior to Harmast Barefoot, Orlanth myths didn't include a Lightbringer's Quest.

That belongs to the "How does your Glorantha vary" thread rather than here.

The Lightbringer myth was always (in Gloranthan history) fundamental to the role of Orlanth within Time. Harmast set up a script stringing together a series of myths which may or may not have been part of the Godtime experience, but have been since his return with Arkat.

 

I would like to know Kargzant's Hill of Gold myth. Apparently he is Lightfore, so he should have it. (And old Praxian Sun Daughter, too... or "why do these scuptures deep in the Paps show Yelmalio as a woman?")

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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15 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I would like to know Kargzant's Hill of Gold myth. Apparently he is Lightfore, so he should have it.

Well, it depends what you mean.

If we take the divine identities seriously — Kargzant = Lightfore = Yelmalio = Elmal = [a whole bunch of other small and/or cold suns] — then you already know it, possibly in several variants. One starts “once upon a time, Yelmalio …” Any Hill of Gold myth about a little sun is in that sense a Kargzant Hill of Gold myth. If you like, these are the stories with the god name replaced by a variable (story as complex predicate?): if true of Lightfore, also true of Kargzant.

Another sense is the events that happened to the god in Godtime. We know them in outline, but bits may be disputed, even changeable. We may come to know the events better — or worse — in time.

Finally(?), there is the question of whether we find Hill of Gold-type stories in which the name “Kargzant” appears — especially interesting if told by people who don’t know the salient divine identities. Well, we might find such, but it would be too strong to say we should find them. Worshippers can — and will — have incomplete knowledge of their deities, no?

NOTORIOUS VØID CULTIST

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33 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Lightbringer myth was always (in Gloranthan history) fundamental to the role of Orlanth within Time. Harmast set up a script stringing together a series of myths which may or may not have been part of the Godtime experience, but have been since his return with Arkat.

The basic core was always important, but unless I'm misremembering this was believed to be the Lifebringer's Quest to save Ernalda prior to Harmast's time. I imagine they mirrored each other in several ways, but ultimately Harmast's discovery integrated the Lifebringer's Quest into the Lightbringer's Quest, similar to how Monrogh's revelation integrated Elmal Guards the Stead into Yelmalio's Hill of Gold.

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20 hours ago, Leingod said:

Elmal’s “Hill of Gold” is “Elmal Guards the Stead.” Elmal’s spear and shield end up with Orlanth; he gave them willingly and received Orlanth’s shield and regency over the Storm Tribe, sure, but that’s just a change in context. He faces three wicked foes and each leaves him broken and bleeding; the foes are different and he actually won those fights, yes, but the important part is the “left bleeding and broken but gets back up” part. One foe targets his virtue rather than his body; that virtue is loyalty rather than chastity, but nonetheless. 

These are all contextual changes, well within the scope of regional and cultural variations in worship. Relationships, motivations, and so on often differ even within a single group’s myths, much less between different ones.

Pardon my skepticism at this interpretation.  The Hill of Gold is not Orlanth's Stead.

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16 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Pardon my skepticism at this interpretation.  The Hill of Gold is not Orlanth's Stead.

Well yes. That's a large part of why the Yelmalist presentation of the underlying mysteries tends to win out over the purist Elmalist one. 

 

 

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20 hours ago, Joerg said:

I would like to know Kargzant's Hill of Gold myth. Apparently he is Lightfore, so he should have it. (And old Praxian Sun Daughter, too... or "why do these scuptures deep in the Paps show Yelmalio as a woman?")

So the underlaying theme of Yelmalian misogyny is the fact that the guys a worshiping a woman? All the more reason to not like women advancing in the ranks, especially higher levels!

I would like to know Kargzant's Hill of Gold myth as well as Mr. B., suppose no issue with male, female, etc. taking the lead role in any Hero Quest... how is the Kargzant myth different than the Yemalioan one, is there one form Elmal as well? Lightfore?

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1 minute ago, Erol of Backford said:

So the underlaying theme of Yelmalian misogyny is the fact that the guys a worshiping a woman? All the more reason to not like women advancing in the ranks, especially higher levels!

...

AIUI, all the (modern-Age, central-Genertela) Solar cults run towards "patriarchy," but full-bore & unapologetic "misogyny" is relatively rare (Sun Dome in Prax, I think, is one of the stand-out exemplars of it (which makes Vega Goldbreath's audacity there particularly delicious, IMHO)).

(n.b. "Yelorna" is nominally a "star captain" cult... but she's sib to Yelmalio & Yamsur, and I *strongly* suspect one of her deep mysteries is that she's a Solar deity herself.)

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Our Backford campaign has 2 of 8 in the Yelmalio/Elmal mess one is a woman and the other a male Agimori, we'll see how that plays out in Prax especially if they are independent of the chauvinistic males at the Praxian Sun Dome and are able to kick their ass (eventually) even though only acolyte status!?

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There has not been a published Sun Dome temple staff (full or minor) without a Light Lady in charge of the military. Just saying...

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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I believe the Elmal version of Hill of Gold is where he and Orlanth first become friends.  Since Elmal doesn't lose the fire rune, I expect this enables him to kick Zorak Zoran's ass and then Orlanth probably sleeps with Inora since that's Orlanth's main non-combat job.

 

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