Yelmalio/Elmal again

[Erol of Backford]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

There has not been a published Sun Dome temple staff (full or minor) without a Light Lady in charge of the military. Just saying...

Where is the most info on the Sartar Sun Dome, bits and pieces in several old Zines but where are the best sources? (Please, please don't sat the upcoming Sartar book!?)

[jajagappa]

2 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Where is the most info on the Sartar Sun Dome, bits and pieces in several old Zines but where are the best sources? (Please, please don't sat the upcoming Sartar book!?)

WF #15.

[Erol of Backford]

I have it, forgot that one, again! Skimmed it, Serternas the Bright, Malerkot the Red, Tarchnal the Eagle, Bradangus the Bright, etc. they are all dudes.

Mr. B suggested women controlled the military, Light Lady in charge... who is this woman at the Sartar Sun Dome?

Also what year is the article in WF 15 based in Gloranthian time? 1625?

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Also what year is the article in WF 15 based in Gloranthian time? 1625?

It was released in the HQG period, so I'd say ~1618-21.

If you're running an earlier timeframe, then just make one up. If before 1613, then quite likely an ally of Kallyr (might have even been on the quest to meet Pole Star). 

[Qizilbashwoman]

6 hours ago, g33k said:

AIUI, all the (modern-Age, central-Genertela) Solar cults run towards "patriarchy," but full-bore & unapologetic "misogyny" is relatively rare (Sun Dome in Prax, I think, is one of the stand-out exemplars of it (which makes Vega Goldbreath's audacity there particularly delicious, IMHO)).

(n.b. "Yelorna" is nominally a "star captain" cult... but she's sib to Yelmalio & Yamsur, and I *strongly* suspect one of her deep mysteries is that she's a Solar deity herself.)

Yelm was once female as well when Ourania mantled it (this was before Muharzam, obviously)

[Darius West]

11 hours ago, radmonger said:

Well yes. That's a large part of why the Yelmalist presentation of the underlying mysteries tends to win out over the purist Elmalist one. 

If Elmal is like Yelmalio, but with his fire powers intact because they didn't bleed out on the Hill of Gold, then Yelmalio is inferior to Elmal in most situations.   Plus Elmali don't have weird cult hang ups about cross dressing, and sleeping under red blankets, so there's that...  Also Elmali don't get accused of being Thanatari due to odd coinage restrictions.

[John Biles]

6 minutes ago, Darius West said:

If Elmal is like Yelmalio, but with his fire powers intact because they didn't bleed out on the Hill of Gold, then Yelmalio is inferior to Elmal in most situations.   Plus Elmali don't have weird cult hang ups about cross dressing, and sleeping under red blankets, so there's that...  Also Elmali don't get accused of being Thanatari due to odd coinage restrictions.

Accused of Thanatari over what???

The advantage Yelmalions have is that they make great phalanxes, while Elmali are horsemen.

Each has its uses.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

45 minutes ago, John Biles said:

The advantage Yelmalions have is that they make great phalanxes, while Elmali are horsemen.

Each has its uses.

Given that no PC has ever stood, in game, in a pike phalanx (see note a), that "advantage" is useless.  Many PCs do ride horses.

(note a) I'm sure that some grognard here will cite one time in one strange and unusual adventure 27 years ago where his guy stood in a phalanx, and his skill roll actually mattered.  That's the exception that proves the rule.

[Erol of Backford]

2 hours ago, John Biles said:

Accused of Thanatari over what???

They don't use silver, afraid it will tarnish, they are secretly supporting a bunch of Thanatari, a sort of subculture for the Sun Dome. Recall the movie Porky's, I think that had some of the same ideas where the righteous high-ranking townsfolk were actually the most immoral. They ran down the street in their underwear with feathers on them or something... sound like what the Sun Domers would do to people they can't understand or don't care to try to... we have some modern day real world situations like this, not the silver tarnish part but then again maybe some people would cause silver to tarnish if they touched it? Can't stop laughing...

Edited March 8, 2023 by Erol of Backford

[Darius West]

On 3/3/2023 at 3:01 AM, Jeff said:

There is no Elmal v. Yelmalio. They are the same god, same archetypes, and fit in the same place in cosmic mythology. We all know Yelmalio - he's that last light that survived after the Sun went to the Underworld. He's in the night sky as Lightfore, the brightest planet in the heavens, which follows the same route as the Sun. 

So... if this is the case, who was Harvar Ironfist persecuting after he finished persecuting the Orlanthi?   Everyone knows it was holdout Elmal worshippers who wouldn't convert to Yelmalio.  There is definitely Elmal vs. Yelmalio in the lore and retconing it and pretending it isn't there is not making Glorantha better imo.  It is details like this in the lore that add depth and texture to Glorantha, and they need to be preserved not erased.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Darius West

[Darius West]

3 hours ago, John Biles said:

Accused of Thanatari over what???  

It is a longstanding problem with Yelmalios that they refuse to do business in silver coins, favoring the handling of all their transactions in gold wheels.  As one of the more reliable ways of detecting a Thanatar presence in the area is the presence of tarnished silver, the Thanatari also prefer to do their business in gold wheels, using the pretense of membership in Yelmalio as a cover for this behavior. This was brought to light by the infamous "Black Broo of Dyskund" incident.

Many Yelmalios also slip away after dark to engage in "secret night drilling", at undisclosed locations, further adding to the level of suspicion.   It is rumored that Harvar ironfist is especially known to participate in this clandestine activity and rumor has it that it may even be the source of his battle sobriquet.

By comparison, Elmali are not known for these behaviors and the same accusation is not levelled at them.

I hope that clears this up for you John.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Darius West

[John Biles]

4 minutes ago, Darius West said:

It is a longstanding problem with Yelmalios that they refuse to do business in silver coins, favoring the handling of all their transactions in gold wheels.  As one of the more reliable ways of detecting a Thanatar presence in the area is the presence of tarnished silver, the Thanatari also prefer to do their business in gold wheels, using the pretense of membership in Yelmalio as a cover for this behavior. This was brought to light by the infamous "Black Broo of Dyskund" incident.

Many Yelmalios also slip away after dark to engage in "secret night drilling", at undisclosed locations, further adding to the level of suspicion. 

By comparison, Elmali are not known for these behaviors and the same accusation is not levelled at them.

I hope that clears this up for you John.

AHH!  Okay, I did not understand Erol's reply.

 

[Joerg]

11 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I have it, forgot that one, again! Skimmed it, Serternas the Bright, Malerkot the Red, Tarchnal the Eagle, Bradangus the Bright, etc. they are all dudes.

Mr. B suggested women controlled the military, Light Lady in charge... who is this woman at the Sartar Sun Dome?

Also what year is the article in WF 15 based in Gloranthian time? 1625?

I didn't quite count the WF15 article since it has been deprecated in a great number of points (most importantly the Ergeshi). Now, with the more cosmopolitan outlook, it would be weird not to have a Vega Goldbreath/Starnia Stormrender equivalent.

[radmonger]

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

If Elmal is like Yelmalio, but with his fire powers intact because they didn't bleed out on the Hill of Gold, then Yelmalio is inferior to Elmal in most situations.

Well yes. but here you are thinking as a consumer of cult magic, when the relevant decisions get made by the producers of cult magic; the rune levels and wyters.

it appears the entity worshipped by the Elmal cult has minimal fire powers. So making those available to initiates is disproportionately hard work, with not particularly impressive results. No Elmal writeup I've ever seen has a fireball rune spell; it's more you get a discount on buying the firearrow spirit spell. 

The thing is, fire magic isn't even particulaly useful to the Elmali within wider Orlanthi society. They don't practice slash-and-burn agriculture. Raiders burning down steads would be against Orlanth's laws in a way that merely stabbing their defenders with a spear isn't. Other cults handle smithing, baking, pottery and so on. Light magic is better for signalling and visibility at night than a fire. You end up with 'we keep this sacred flame burning because it is a sacred flame'.

Everyone no doubt gave a collective sigh of relief when Monrogh told them 'we can stop pretending, and just let it go out'.

That didn't end all conflict, but it is no longer an active source of political tension by 1625, any more than the UK is troubled by a Mercian separatist movement. Doesn't mean the players can't start a fight over the issue, but they won't really find one ongoing.

i do suspect one issue is that the RQ cult writeup format has a single top-level entry. So the mere layout implicitly says that Elmal is a subcult of Yelmalio.  Wheras it is really more that Elmal and Yelmalio are two competing cults with differently-wrong interpretations of the same underlying mysteries. 

 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by radmonger

[Ali the Helering]

59 minutes ago, radmonger said:

That didn't end all conflict, but it is no longer an active source of political tension by 1625, any more than the UK is troubled by a Mercian separatist movement.

No, but Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, even Cornwall have separatist movements.  You cannot discount generational memories.  As one Ulsterman said to me "We learn our hatred on our grandmothers' knee."

[radmonger]

3 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

No, but Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, even Cornwall have separatist movements.  You cannot discount generational memories.  As one Ulsterman said to me "We learn our hatred on our grandmothers' knee."

Granted: I said it was a thing that could happen. It is just currently (1625) it seems like it is on the same scale as:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acting_Witan_of_Mercia

https://independentmercia.org/

The real point is that geographically, mercia, cornwall and wales are all part of the same island, and so it is possible for them to have, or not have, that kind of conflict. If Mercia was instead located somewhere near Moldova then the nature of any possible conflict would be entirely different.

The same would be true if Elmal and Yelmalio were deeply mythically and magically distinct. Which is what them being different top level RQ;G cults would imply. if they were, they couldn't have had the kind of conflict that canonical sources state they did.

 

Then again, maybe your players are up for the kind of heroquesting that could maybe lead to:

 

 

[mfbrandi]

11 hours ago, Darius West said:

If Elmal is like Yelmalio, but with his fire powers intact because they didn't bleed out on the Hill of Gold, then Yelmalio is inferior to Elmal in most situations.   Plus Elmali don't have weird cult hang ups

Although if Elmal = Yelmalio, then there is no question of one god having fire powers and the other not. The one is the other. That is not to deny that some worshippers of the god do fire magic while other worshippers do not.

I guess what the Elmal diehards miss is that the Yelmalio cult harnesses the power of refusal, of denial. When the Yelmalians realize that they have long been ascetics in the Sheng style — able to amass immense power through the suffering of the failed mystic — they will be terrifying, indeed. When I hear that the Light Sons have traded Firespeech for silence, I am going to find a deep, dark hole to hide in.

Every geas is a gift.

Edited March 8, 2023 by mfbrandi
deleted one comma

[Jeff]

9 hours ago, Darius West said:

So... if this is the case, who was Harvar Ironfist persecuting after he finished persecuting the Orlanthi?   Everyone knows it was holdout Elmal worshippers who wouldn't convert to Yelmalio.  There is definitely Elmal vs. Yelmalio in the lore and retconing it and pretending it isn't there is not making Glorantha better imo.  It is details like this in the lore that add depth and texture to Glorantha, and they need to be preserved not erased.

The Orlanth cult in the Far Point sought to rebel from Lunar Occupation. Harvar Ironfist used his leadership of the Yelmalio cult to establish himself as the ruler of Alda-Chur with the support of the Provincial Government, and then defeated the Orlanthi rebellion. Given that the Yelmalio cult was outnumbered by the Orlanth cult almost 4:1, it meant that the Harvar needed to be constantly disrupting their activities, demoralising them, etc, even with the support of the local Lunar garrison. It also meant that he needed to impose his will on the local Yelmalio cult to an extreme extent.

In truth, not much was written about the Far Point by Greg after the King of Sartar (which did not mention Elmal in the context of Harvar) until WF 15.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

Although if Elmal = Yelmalio, then there is no question of one god having fire powers and the other not. The one is the other. That is not to deny that some worshippers of the god do fire magic while other worshippers do not.

I guess what the Elmal diehards miss is that the Yelmalio cult harnesses the power of refusal, of denial. When the Yelmalians realize that they have long been ascetics in the Sheng style — able to amass immense power through the suffering of the failed mystic — they will be terrifying, indeed. When I hear that the Light Sons have traded Firespeech for silence, I am going to find a deep, dark hole to hide in.

Every geas is a gift.

Elmal does not have fire powers. I screwed up in the description in Sartar KoH.

[SDLeary]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Elmal does not have fire powers. I screwed up in the description in Sartar KoH.

And in the Guide?

SDLeary

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

And in the Guide?

SDLeary

The name Elmal appears 5 times in the Guide. Now I wrote the Guide in 2012-2013, and if I were to do it again, Elmal would appear 4 times. Not once does it speak of Elmal having fire powers, although it does reference Elmal's arrow magic.

The Three Magics of Creekstream Ford: The gulping earth that swallowed the broos; Elmal’s arrows that downed the hoverers; and the Harmast Sons, who stood like a wall. 

In contrast Yelmalio appears 50 times.

[mfbrandi]

46 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Not once does it speak of Elmal having fire powers

Even having a quick (so possibly insufficiently observant) flick through the dreaded Storm Tribe — a point of maximum deviation? — I saw a lot of runes but no in the Elmal write-up. If Elmal was the Sun, the Orlanthi lands of Hero Wars must have been somewhat chilly.

[Ali the Helering]

7 hours ago, radmonger said:

The real point is that geographically, mercia, cornwall and wales are all part of the same island, and so it is possible for them to have, or not have, that kind of conflict. If Mercia was instead located somewhere near Moldova then the nature of any possible conflict would be entirely different.

European Wars of Religion would indicate otherwise.

[SDLeary]

12 hours ago, Jeff said:

The name Elmal appears 5 times in the Guide. Now I wrote the Guide in 2012-2013, and if I were to do it again, Elmal would appear 4 times. Not once does it speak of Elmal having fire powers, although it does reference Elmal's arrow magic.

The Three Magics of Creekstream Ford: The gulping earth that swallowed the broos; Elmal’s arrows that downed the hoverers; and the Harmast Sons, who stood like a wall. 

In contrast Yelmalio appears 50 times.

12 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Even having a quick (so possibly insufficiently observant) flick through the dreaded Storm Tribe — a point of maximum deviation? — I saw a lot of runes but no in the Elmal write-up. If Elmal was the Sun, the Orlanthi lands of Hero Wars must have been somewhat chilly.

Sorry, my question was not about fire powers specifically. More the overall representation of Elmal, where he is the Orlanthi Sun in multiple areas.

• Guide Vol 1, p.37 – Minor Deities: ... , Elmal the Sun God
• Vol 1, p.152 – Storm Pantheon – Elmal: Sun God (, )[sorry, forgot about not being able to use the R font, and don't have the pic files handy]
• Vol 1, p.188 – Runegate (town): The town has a large temple to Elmal the Sun God and Hyalor Horsebreaker.
• Vol 2, p. 646 – Celestial Bodies: The Sun – ... Most Orlanthi say that the Sun is Elmal, a thane of Orlanth, while in Pent it is Kargzant, the Horse God who was a rival of Yelm when the Pentans ruled Dara Happa in the First Age. ...

And then the entry which you reference which is on a Chronicle from 550ST (is that the one you would omit?).

The fact that Yelmalio appears more doesn't negate what is written about Elmal, as Yelmalio is considered part of the Solar folk, and recognized by the Aldryami. 

Also, in Vol 2, p. 647, in the section on Lightfore, Yelmalio is equated by the Orlanthi as Lightfore (not Elmal).

So it appears as if the Orlanthi (note the collective here) believe that Elmal is the Sun God, and that Yelmalio is a different god. I can certainly see how Monrogh's rebellion could attract a substantial following, to the point where actual Elmal worshippers might be in the minority, and possibly in decline in Sartar, but can that really be said of all Orlanthi society? And, if it can, how has that happened in only 60-80 ish years, with the Opening only being about 40 years? (blah, blah Heroquest... So back to Godlearnerism?)

SDLeary

Edited March 9, 2023 by SDLeary
Inserted Runes

[Erol of Backford]

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

(most importantly the Ergeshi)

They were basically eliminated as slaves, peasants, serfs, etc. and are just farmers, not prisoners of the war(s) fought with the Trolls?

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

Now, with the more cosmopolitan outlook, it would be weird not to have a Vega Goldbreath/Starnia Stormrender equivalent.

Maybe a PC from our Backford campaign will end up being that said equivalent or maybe the female counter part to Belvani, worldly and well traveled...