Firearm Damages

[SDLeary]

Well a few,

First the changes doesn't address the problem-that is that a wide damage roll will cause some weapons to perform erratically against ballistic armor.

Secondly, the rule would serious weaken body armor-to the point of it not being worth the bother. A half damage hit from a rifle will probably disable a location or cause a major wound. The high NIJ rated armor is designed to prevent that. A .32 round fired inot a Class III vest should do less damage than if fired into a Class II or Class I vest.

There is no real difference in protection with the Damage Resiistance approach. A 15 point vest might work more often than an 8 point vest, but both would still only give 1/2 damage protection.

OK then... how about the damage value that penetrates soft armour be used vs the location hit points in a resistance roll... failure equals a knockout and/or reduction of fatigue to 0. Or, perhaps, some sort of degrees suggested above, but rather than something with so many options, we allow specials and crits. Special 1/4 damage, crit, none.

I suggest this because, as I understand it, and have seen photos demonstrating, soft armours do NOT prevent damage, they prevent penetration and tearing damage. Trauma still occurs (being spread out over a much larger area), possibly including internal bleeding and broken ribs. Even plates in semi rigid armours do this, but to a far lesser degree.

Another option would be to introduce Stun damage in a game with firearms and treat the damage not "stopped" by the value of the vest as Stun.

SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

OK then... how about the damage value that penetrates soft armour be used vs the location hit points in a resistance roll... failure equals a knockout and/or reduction of fatigue to 0. Or, perhaps, some sort of degrees suggested above, but rather than something with so many options, we allow specials and crits. Special 1/4 damage, crit, none.

I suggest this because, as I understand it, and have seen photos demonstrating, soft armours do NOT prevent damage, they prevent penetration and tearing damage. Trauma still occurs (being spread out over a much larger area), possibly including internal bleeding and broken ribs. Even plates in semi rigid armours do this, but to a far lesser degree.

Another option would be to introduce Stun damage in a game with firearms and treat the damage not "stopped" by the value of the vest as Stun.

SDLeary

But the spreading out of the damage greatly reduces the effect. IT is the inability to penetrate that makes the big difference. You have to keep in mind that most bullets don't have much energy. They reason why they kill is because they are small, and so concentrate all their energy at a small point. Also the armor does absorb some of the kinetic energy and slows down the transfer of energy. Slowing down the energy helps the body to absorb it.

A knockout isn't likely ever with a penetrating round, let alone blunt trauma. Yeah it will hurt, but it isn't the same as an actual knife wound or strike from a mace.

From what I've seen, something like a .32 isn't going to do any real damage through a functioning Cllass III vest.

I could see some sort of stun/shock roll, but then, I could say the same for someone who got hit by an axe. Likewise, axes and such do cause blunt trauma to people in mail, plate and the like.

I think that if we use the AP system for swords and axes we should use it for bullets. Or start tracking blunt trauma against mail.

[SDLeary]

But the spreading out of the damage greatly reduces the effect. IT is the inability to penetrate that makes the big difference. You have to keep in mind that most bullets don't have much energy. They reason why they kill is because they are small, and so concentrate all their energy at a small point. Also the armor does absorb some of the kinetic energy and slows down the transfer of energy. Slowing down the energy helps the body to absorb it.

A knockout isn't likely ever with a penetrating round, let alone blunt trauma. Yeah it will hurt, but it isn't the same as an actual knife wound or strike from a mace.

From what I've seen, something like a .32 isn't going to do any real damage through a functioning Cllass III vest.

I could see some sort of stun/shock roll, but then, I could say the same for someone who got hit by an axe. Likewise, axes and such do cause blunt trauma to people in mail, plate and the like.

I think that if we use the AP system for swords and axes we should use it for bullets. Or start tracking blunt trauma against mail.

A KO might not be likely with a .32 against a Level III vest, but certainly is with a Level IIIA. And lower Level II and IIA vests, which law enforcement use, its certainly possible. Police have often been taken, unconscious, to the emergency room after being shot; ER doctors only finding a large bruise and internal trauma. The same has happened on the battlefield with Soldiers, and higher Level vests. The KO might not last for long, perhaps only qualify as Stun in game terms, but it does happen.

The goal of discussions like this should not be to model real world conditions in detail. To do so increases bookkeeping and/or number of rules which will cause most to simply ignore them. The real world must be abstracted into something that is simple to use for the average joe without bogging down combats that some already consider take too long.

SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

Yes, but we need to consider how it will work in play. In BRP, character average around 12HP, and a combat pistol does around 6-8 points per hit. Two hits drop someone. If body armor stops half of it, it just changes it from 2 hits to 4.

In game terms that would lean to most deaths being from blunt trauma.

And while people have bben brought unconscious to the hosptial, that is atypical. Ususally it just causes brusing.

WHat I think would work, and be simple, would be to make the SHOCK roll (as per CoC) based on the rolled damage, rather than the actual damage. And maybe toss on a point of damage.

That way any hit that does 1/2HP or more could take someone down, even if it isn't pepentrating the vest.

[Nightshade]

It would really help if BRP made any distinction between blunt force trauma and other sorts; while BFT can kill you, it usually takes much more to do so, but the game makes no real distinction.

[SDLeary]

Yes, but we need to consider how it will work in play. In BRP, character average around 12HP, and a combat pistol does around 6-8 points per hit. Two hits drop someone. If body armor stops half of it, it just changes it from 2 hits to 4.

In game terms that would lean to most deaths being from blunt trauma.

And while people have bben brought unconscious to the hosptial, that is atypical. Ususally it just causes brusing.

WHat I think would work, and be simple, would be to make the SHOCK roll (as per CoC) based on the rolled damage, rather than the actual damage. And maybe toss on a point of damage.

That way any hit that does 1/2HP or more could take someone down, even if it isn't pepentrating the vest.

Hence the suggestion of a resistance roll vs the location points, failure resulting not in "damage", but a reduction of fatigue to minimum (taking into account point or level systems) and a KO. I'll modify this, because I didn't specify earlier. The KO would of course be for trunk hits.

This does put the shooter at somewhat a disadvantage though as they haven't really damaged their target.

SDLeary

[Joseph Paul]

...The goal of discussions like this should not be to model real world conditions in detail. To do so increases bookkeeping and/or number of rules which will cause most to simply ignore them. The real world must be abstracted into something that is simple to use for the average joe without bogging down combats that some already consider take too long.

SDLeary

I think the way to get to what you want is to do the fiddly, math intense, simulation first and then abstract it so that you get very nearly the same results. What Chaosium seems to be laying out for us is the ability to make what we want of the game but that shouldn't end up with games that are vastly different in outcome for common actions like getting shot. That of course would mean that Chaosium would need to actually define some things like what a point of SIZ is (target area or mass?), what encumbrance is, how much energy a die of damage actually represents or what thickness/material of armor will stop a point of damage etc.

Joseph Paul