Would common rune spells learned from a major cult work with spells from a spirit cult ?

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 3/7/2023 at 7:41 PM, Agentorange said:

So the only ways Earthrunning Girl would have Extension would be

a) if she granted it herself
b) she was a sub cult of a larger cult which had it -  and could access it from that cult ?

c) heroic spell

I would play that if a character is able to get an extension-like heroric spell, she is then able to cast it with any of her spells from any runepool

 

but the key word is runepool, do what you want in one runepool, nothing with two runepools except issaries trade spells (in my opinion)

[Rodney Dangerduck]

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I think you're reading that far too literally and pedantically. I think you're trying to apply the 'any' tag to every spell,  rather than to any temporal spell provided by the god.

If the authors had wanted Extension to apply to only spells of the same god, they could have removed the "any", and added your five words: "provided by the same god".  (or possibly pantheon, etc...)  They didn't.  To each their own.  I've found that even when the rules seem clear, which is disturbingly rare, people ignore them.  Often this is deliberate in the name of MGF.

[Joerg]

9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Well, there you see, I'd go the exact opposite, because the power of a Rune Spell is from the deity itself, and each deity has its own unique powers (even though we all use the same terminology, and they all seem to do the same thing - eg, Extension).

On the other hand, the very term "Rune Spell" (or its earlier incarnation in RQ1 and 2, "Rune Power") suggests that the magic comes from the rune which was involved when the deity did some feat pertaining to their own domain. At least, that is how sorcerers would read the flow of magical energies, and how their spells affecting rune spells interact with that sort of magic.

Cosmologically, all magic comes from the Ultimate which sends its energies down into the cosmos, focussed by the runes that are expressing the rules of the cosmos, diverted by deities that Middle World entities have established a magical link to, via transformation of magic-generating life force (POW) into Rune Point pools. It is this former personal POW which creates the conduit of the Ultimate's energies through the runes involved.

Common Rune Spells aren't limited to any single rune as conduit. They are somehow a side effect of any sufficiently broadly oriented divine entity interacting with the Ultimate. There are exceptions, even among the major deities, like Chalana Arroy refusing to allow the harmful magic of Warding, and there are uncounted minor deities or spirit cult entities unable to provide many or any common magics besides their individual trick(s) (which might be in the repertoire of more significant deities).

 

 

9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Could an Orlanth Extension work on a Humakti Shield? I don't think so, because it's not the same power.

An Extension Rune Spell is something that alters a spell's manifestation inside Time. One might understand it as associated magic for deities bound to the Compromise granted by that otherwise intangible child of Arachne Solara, or perhaps as granted by the Mother of Time.

Viewed that way, would it really be an Orlanth Expansion, or would it be a shared associate magic?

YGWV, and this will be part of the group contract to put down. 

 

9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

And, Rune Spells are a temporary embodiment or manifestation of the deity. To drop an Extension on a different deity's spell would mean you're literally trying to invoke an avatar of two deities at once. (granted, if it's an associated cult spell, this could be argued against it).

So which Greater Entity is the source of this common Rune Magic? Glorantha/Arachne Solara?

[Godlearner]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

So which Greater Entity is the source of this common Rune Magic? Glorantha/Arachne Solara?

Magic Rune Or more likely Condition Runes of which Magic is one.

Edited March 12, 2023 by Godlearner
added

[French Desperate WindChild]

there are a lot of conceptions there (without speaking of the rules and official answer)

 

1) is extension a spell/prayer/xxx by itself from a gloranthan perspective ?

in my opinion, no. It is not a specific effect you obtain from your god, it is a longer effect than usual you obtain from the god offering you the effect of the other spell : you don't ask Orlanth to have more time to do anything you want, you ask Orlanth to be protected by his shield for a longer time

the spell denomination (imo), is just a game design, don't add more rules "just" for that, because at the end of the day, adding time is just "use more rune points".

 

2) are gods just runes or personalities ?

in my opinion / game, they are personalities, sentient non playable characters, not just resources you can manipulate (if you want that, play a sorcerer, yes it is harder, but you can do what you want by manipulating primal runes, not bargaining with spirits or worshipping greater entities)

Will Yelm consider that his bright, immaculate power can be used by any miserable worshippers to obtain some blessing of his lecherous brother, or even barbarian gods ? no

 

 

some will answer differently : a spell is a spell, if players buy a spell they can use it like they want, when they want, they have the spell, like spirit spell or sorcery spell, and that's all.

 

[soltakss]

For me, life is too short to bother with "This Extension comes from Ernalda so I cannot use it on a Uleria spell", or "I cannot use Orlanthi and Storm Bull Shield together".

A spell is a spell is a spell in my opinion. So, I can use Ernalda's Extension to make an Aldrya spell last longer, or use 2 Runepoints from Ernalda and 3 from Aldrya to cast Extension 5. It makes the game simpler for me, with less crunchy and annoying rules. 

8 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

some will answer differently : a spell is a spell, if players buy a spell they can use it like they want, when they want, they have the spell, like spirit spell or sorcery spell, and that's all.

That is exactly how I play it.

 

[PhilHibbs]

  

On 3/7/2023 at 9:59 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I respectfully disagree.  The Extension spell does say specifically otherwise: "any temporal Rune spell".  Any means any.  Nor does it say "with the same rune and rune points as the spell you are extending".

Sure, if you want to go with rules literalism, if that works for your group, then great. Other approaches to gaming in Glorantha are available.

On 3/7/2023 at 9:59 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Arguably, you may have to make two rolls against different runes to succeed.  We haven't bothered with that level of detail.

I agree, I'd never ask a player to make two rolls to cast a spell with Extension. It kind of goes against the "rules literalism" philosophy, but no approach should be driven by blinkered absolutism.

On 3/12/2023 at 1:15 PM, soltakss said:

For me, life is too short to bother with "This Extension comes from Ernalda so I cannot use it on a Uleria spell", or "I cannot use Orlanthi and Storm Bull Shield together".

A spell is a spell is a spell in my opinion. So, I can use Ernalda's Extension to make an Aldrya spell last longer, or use 2 Runepoints from Ernalda and 3 from Aldrya to cast Extension 5. It makes the game simpler for me, with less crunchy and annoying rules. 

Entirely reasonable. Same conclusion as "rules literalism" but different reasoning to get there.

On 3/7/2023 at 9:40 PM, radmonger said:

People don't grant spells, cults do.

On 3/8/2023 at 10:01 AM, Scotty said:

Gods do.

Sorcery is something you learn. Spirit magic is something you have. Rune magic is something that you are.

You become the deity, you become a manifestation of that entity in the middle world. Can you be two things at once? Maybe. That could be an illumination power. Or it could be something that you heroquest to be able to do, find or follow a myth where the two deities worked together to achieve something. I'd say it isn't available to starting characters, but that's a choice, and is getting into Gloranthan cosmology rather than the more simple RuneQuest rules mechanics. It is entirely reasonable to take a rules literal approach and just play the game.

[Jens]

While I understand that mechanically it is, I don't actually see Extension as a separate spell. Instead, you are asking your god to make the power you are channelling from them last longer (e.g. you're not casting Shield 2 and Extension 2, for 4 rune points you are casting a Shield 2 that lasts for 24 hours). For this reason I'd require all rune points to come from the same pool. 

For earthrunning, I see 3 options- 

1. There are many spells in the Red Book with durations other than 15 minutes- give earthrunning a longer default duration (perhaps at a higher starting cost), or make it stackable with an increasing duration- something like 1 hour for 1 point, or 12 hours (or dawn/dusk) for 2 points- or even until the caster falls asleep or stops touching the earth, like Path Watch (a 2 point spell).
2. The spirit cults listed in the core rules all provide Extension 1. Perhaps the default duration is 1 hour, but when stacked with Extension 1 from ERGirl, that increases to one day (make sure you sacrifice 2 POW for the 2 point rune pool needed).
3. ERGirl is a Daughter (and subcult) of Ernalda. You need to visit her shrine to learn the spell, but the POW point you sacrifices increases your Ernalda rune pool, and the spell (and extension) are cast from that pool.