Sell me on SB5!

[drohem]

Ok, I have seen many, many references to the superior rules of SB5. The impression I have is that it's a refinement of earlier SB editions, and, consequently, the BRP system.

I own SB1 and SB4 editions.

So, what is so different from earlier SB editions and/or other BRP games that make it so good?

I am thinking that I have to add SB5 to my collection now since I've seen it referred to so much in these posts.

Is SB5 a 'must have' for BRP games and fans? Why?

[AikiGhost]

Is SB5 a 'must have' for BRP games and fans? Why?

Since you have other editions and I presume are going to buy the BRP core when it arrives Id say you dont really need it. SB5 is basically Elric with a different layout.

[badcat]

As indeed is the new book. You don't need SB5, as the default system of the new book is very similar. Or so I understand. Jason is the guy to ask, I guess...just to be sure.

[drohem]

Yeah, still waiting for my copy of BRP 0e to arrive! It shipped on the 19th, so hopefully today or tomorrow.

[Atgxtg]

Ok, I have seen many, many references to the superior rules of SB5. The impression I have is that it's a refinement of earlier SB editions, and, consequently, the BRP system.

I own SB1 and SB4 editions.

So, what is so different from earlier SB editions and/or other BRP games that make it so good?

I am thinking that I have to add SB5 to my collection now since I've seen it referred to so much in these posts.

Is SB5 a 'must have' for BRP games and fans? Why?

Uh, not sure I can.

The good points:

1)It is streamlined. Think of the CoC rules.

2)Magic has been downgraded to keep sorceroer from being as overpowering as they were in SB1

3) Specific summoning spells/magic for the being that pop up in the Elric books.

4) They altered the cultural notes to better fit Moorcocks works. Argrimilans are no longer the Young Kingdom's answer to the USA.

The bad points:

Well, pretty much everything else. Stats don't mean much, there is a rip off of RQ spirit magic grafted onto the game that doesn't belong there. Also, since Mogoose is now publishing Elric stuff I doubt you'll see any support for it from Chaosium. Not that they have done a good good of supporting the game. They certainly never lived up to their claim of it being the new in house fantasy RPG setting that they claimed it was going to be after the AH deal.

I'd say save your money and just use BRP.

[drohem]

Thanks guys for the information.

[Enpeze]

I just want to add 3 reasons why IMO you should really buy SB5. (maybe as cheap PDF)

1. Because of the demon/elemental summoning rules. They are great IMO and fully compatible with the new DBRP. Additional you should buy the bronze grimoire because of the rune magic rules and a lot of other SB5 compatible spells.

DBRP provide just the simple sorcery rule part from SB5, but only the SB5 core rule book has the full system. Maybe there is a magic book with summoning rules for DBRP coming out in the next years but we dont know this for sure.

2. Additionally the chargen of SB5 should be compatible with DBRP and is centered on creating fantasy characters while DBRP seems generic. Maybe you get some ideas and inspiration for your fantasy games out of it.

3. A third reason is that I really like the artwork. Its the best of all SB books up to now.

[Chaot]

Yes, you should buy it and I'll tell ya why.

1. Cleanest, most streamlined BRP rules system and more complete than CoC. It also makes scaling skills to well over 100% easy.

2. The character digest is a great tool to quickly creating npc. See, along with personalities from Moorcock's writings, they included generic npcs like Calvary Man, Pirate, Decadent Noble. I use these constantly.

3. Spot Rules are a great way to cover most actions that could occur during the game on a mechanical level without cluttering up the game system. Rules for Explosions, Fighting in Low Light, Fighting While Down, etc. are all present.

4. Better rules for Champions of Law and Chaos. They got rid of those stupid amulets.

5. People either like or dislike the spells system in SB5. I love it. Especially since I'm not always actually playing in the YK.

Honestly, you don't need the book. I think a lot of this stuff made it into the new BRP book. I actually prefer Elric! over SB5 despite SB5 having a little more content. Maybe it's nostalgia, or just knowing the book too well, but I can flip through the Elric! book and find something in seconds. I just think it's really well laid out.

[NickMiddleton]

...I actually prefer Elric! over SB5 despite SB5 having a little more content. Maybe it's nostalgia, or just knowing the book too well, but I can flip through the Elric! book and find something in seconds. I just think it's really well laid out.

This I heartily agree with: Elric! is a very well present book, nice crisp layout, well organised and accessible. The Stormbringer 5th edition book is much the same content wise, but spreads that content out much more and is I think the poorer for it. It's still an excellent S&S RPG rule book, but compared to Elric! I've never found it as easy to use. I have TWO copies of Elric! and only one of SB5...

Cheers,

Nick Middleton

[weasel fierce]

Elric/SB5 is a good incarnation of a more high powered and heroic BRP game, while still being gritty and grim. But a shas been said, with the BRP book, you can "build" it anyways, so I'd just get that.

[GreatBear]

I say thee NAY - Last time I checked SB5 went for big buck second hand. It's easier to get copies of Elric!

Wait for BRP. It sounds like Jason has mined the best part of SB5 and digested it for us.

[Simlasa]

I think you can still buy SB5 from Chaosium's site... $29.95.

I'm not sure why it's selling on Amazon for $42.50...

What was Moorcock's big gripe with the game anyway?

I mean, at one time he must have approved of it and made a contract... and written a favorable blurb for it.

I read some online forums where the locals seemed to think buying or even playing the game was tantamount to taking a squat on Moorcock's head.

Much as I've enjoyed his books (most of them) it's hardly high-art... didn't he write a lot of them in one sitting?

He's got some great ideas but can also slip into hackery.

I'm figuring that his main complaint is about money... that Chaosium wasn't supporting the game heavily enough to generate a lot of royalty checks or whatever...

Elric is his laurel to rest on, surely, but I can't say as I'm too worried about 'dishonoring' his wishes... and I can't see the MRQ version succeeding where Chaosium's version 'failed'...

[SDLeary]

I think you can still buy SB5 from Chaosium's site... $29.95.

I'm not sure why it's selling on Amazon for $42.50...

What was Moorcock's big gripe with the game anyway?

I mean, at one time he must have approved of it and made a contract... and written a favorable blurb for it.

I read some online forums where the locals seemed to think buying or even playing the game was tantamount to taking a squat on Moorcock's head.

Much as I've enjoyed his books (most of them) it's hardly high-art... didn't he write a lot of them in one sitting?

He's got some great ideas but can also slip into hackery.

I'm figuring that his main complaint is about money... that Chaosium wasn't supporting the game heavily enough to generate a lot of royalty checks or whatever...

Elric is his laurel to rest on, surely, but I can't say as I'm too worried about 'dishonoring' his wishes... and I can't see the MRQ version succeeding where Chaosium's version 'failed'...

IIRC its more about him getting SOME royalties. Apparently, originally he wrote the contract in such a way that Chaosium was not required to pay royalties at all. And once games got larger, he was miffed because he couldn't convince Chaosium to renegotiate.

SDLeary

[Atgxtg]

I think you can still buy SB5 from Chaosium's site... $29.95.

I'm not sure why it's selling on Amazon for $42.50...

What was Moorcock's big gripe with the game anyway?

I mean, at one time he must have approved of it and made a contract... and written a favorable blurb for it.

I read some online forums where the locals seemed to think buying or even playing the game was tantamount to taking a squat on Moorcock's head.

Much as I've enjoyed his books (most of them) it's hardly high-art... didn't he write a lot of them in one sitting?

He's got some great ideas but can also slip into hackery.

I'm figuring that his main complaint is about money... that Chaosium wasn't supporting the game heavily enough to generate a lot of royalty checks or whatever...

Elric is his laurel to rest on, surely, but I can't say as I'm too worried about 'dishonoring' his wishes... and I can't see the MRQ version succeeding where Chaosium's version 'failed'...

It was like this. Back in the late 70s when RPGs were getting started, both Chasoium and TSR went to Moocock to ask for permission to use his Elric/Eternal Champion setting. Back in those early days, it was looked at more as flattery than as a business venture, and he let both companies use his setting for free, pretty much expecting a game or two. The contract was of the verbal agreement and handshake variety. TSR got stuff out of the gate first with the Deities and Demigods book, but eventually pulled it (and the Cthluhu Mythos stuff) when they became aware that Chaosium had a deal to produce some RPGs.

Now in 30 years Moorcock was never paid a dime, err. 10p. He never expected that Chasoium would be producing Elric games for 30 years or that the hobby would turn into an industry, or even that the people who he made the deal with would no longer be the ones making the games.

So last year he made a Deal with Mongoose and got some money. He also tried and apparently succeeded in getting Chaosium to stop producing Elric games. Personally as much as I prefer Chaosium over Mongoose, I have to say that after 30 years of ELric RPGs I think it is only fair if one of the people making money off of Elric is his creator and author.

As for Moorcock's work. Well if not for Moorcock it is doubtful that we be playing RPGs today. His works were second only to Tolkien in terms of setting and rules, and he was a pioneer in breaking the "Fantasy Hero" stereotype. Up until Moorcock, your Hero in a "Swords & Sorcery" story (and most "Science Fiction Romances") was a big brawny guy, often a barbarian, who started off with nothing and worked his way up to being a king. Elric broke all those molds.

No he didn't write a lot of his stuff in one sitting. What he did do was write a lot of the early Elric stuff for the Sci-Fi pulp magazines of the time. Prior to the late 60s or so a lot, if not most science fiction and fantasy stories were sold in anthology magazines. Sort of mini-pulp books. The original Eric stories were serialized in one such magazine, and published in regular installments. Moorcock actually killed Elric off rather quickly, then moved onto other things, only to be drawn back to Elric by the fans.

[badcat]

:lol:What, you never heard of Poul Anderson, Jack Vance, Avram Davidson, Samuel R. Delaney, Fletcher Pratt, L. Sprague de Camp, Leigh Brackett, Lord Dunsany, Gordon R. Dickson, Mark Twain, (and many others) hmmm? They had no influence on fantasy, and their protagonists were all 'big brawny guys who started with nothing and worked their way up to being a king'? Wow. I defer to your superior knowledge.

[Atgxtg]

:lol:What, you never heard of Poul Anderson, Jack Vance, Avram Davidson, Samuel R. Delaney, Fletcher Pratt, L. Sprague de Camp, Leigh Brackett, Lord Dunsany, Gordon R. Dickson, Mark Twain, (and many others) hmmm? They had no influence on fantasy, and their protagonists were all 'big brawny guys who started with nothing and worked their way up to being a king'? Wow. I defer to your superior knowledge.

Cat,

I said "in terms of setting and rules". It was Moorcock from whom games got things such a Law & Chaos from. And if you do look at the works of authors in the genre, including much of the work of the ones you mentioned, you didn't see too many heroes in heroic fantasy who didn't swing a sword. Twains work hardly would be considered Heroic Fantasy. I didn't say that they did not have an influence on fantasy, I an saying that is was Moorcock who gave us a hero, or actually an anti-hero who was the wizard, rather than the wizard being the villain of the piece. And it was Moorcock who opened the door for a lot of authors to write Heoric Fantasy with heroes outside of the BUrrough-Howard mold.

But I said in terms of "settings and rules"-as in regard to RPGs.

Consider just how many of the authors you listed have had RPGs written based on their works. Dickson had Dragon & the Sword written up for D&D. Jack Vance had his magic system used for the basis of D&Ds and eventually there was a Dying Suns RPG. As far as RPGs go, I'd probably put Fritz Lieber 3rd. Lhankmar seems to be always around in the RPG field.

[Enpeze]

D&D and other mainstream roleplaying incorporated the work of many classic fantasy authors. Maybe we can say that Moorcock had alot of influence with his concept of law, balance and chaos on our hobby. And he redefined the role of the wizard in Fantasy literature and roleplaying by introducing a fighter-mage as the readers main identification figure.

But sadly the concept of an complex antihero was and is still not well received by the majority of the roleplaying audience. (which shows that most roleplayers are simple escapists not even trying to enrich their hobby with something "different")

[NickMiddleton]

It was like this. Back in the late 70s when RPGs were getting started, both Chasoium and TSR went to Moocock to ask for permission to use his Elric/Eternal Champion setting. Back in those early days, it was looked at more as flattery than as a business venture, and he let both companies use his setting for free, pretty much expecting a game or two. The contract was of the verbal agreement and handshake variety. TSR got stuff out of the gate first with the Deities and Demigods book, but eventually pulled it (and the Cthluhu Mythos stuff) when they became aware that Chaosium had a deal to produce some RPGs.

My understanding is that initially Chaosium and TSR came to a perfectly civilised agreement that the next printing of D&DG would acknowledge Chaosium's license, and that Chaosium would do something similar in return, but the deal was scotched by a senior TSR executive who refused to sanction a deal that required TSR to "promote a competitors products."

Now in 30 years Moorcock was never paid a dime, err. 10p. He never expected that Chasoium would be producing Elric games for 30 years or that the hobby would turn into an industry, or even that the people who he made the deal with would no longer be the ones making the games.

My understanding is that Moorcock WAS paid a royalty from the very first - maybe not a huge one, but there WERE payments. However, from the mid nineties Chaosium had severe financial difficulties (the CCG collapse, the collapse of the relationship with AH and the loss of RuneQuest, the departure of Greg Stafford and Glorantha, the Wizard's Attic debacle). During that time payments to Mike Moorcock were not as timely as they should have been, and there was an ongoing dispute over some payments, involving third party sub-licensed rights as well.

So last year he made a Deal with Mongoose and got some money. He also tried and apparently succeeded in getting Chaosium to stop producing Elric games.

Almost entirely inaccurate, according to what Matt Sprange of Mongoose has said. IIRC his accounts went something like this: Mongoose knew, from discussions with Chaosium, that Chaosium were prepared to sell their EC license. Mongoose approached Moorcock and offereed to buy the EC license off Chaosium, and would then re-negotiate an approvals and royalties deal with Mike Moorcock direct. MM was happy, Chaosium agreed, and the license "transferred" to Mongoose. Chaosium have the right to "sell through" their existing stock of EC material (at least for a period of time) I believe, but that's fairly standard in these sorts of situations.

Personally as much as I prefer Chaosium over Mongoose, I have to say that after 30 years of Elric RPGs I think it is only fair if one of the people making money off of Elric is his creator and author.

Whatever the exact details of the dispute in recent years, he was for a large portion of the life of the license at Chaosium paid the agreed fees - and frankly, reading back through internet archives of public postings there's a lack of clarity in accounts from BOTH sides that rather suggests that things fell apart as much from a mutual lack of communication as for any other reason.

Albeit, given some of the things that M's sycophant's were saying at one point a few years ago, I find it deliciously ironic that one of the main writers at Mongoose for the EC license is Lawrence Whitaker...

As for Moorcock's work. Well if not for Moorcock it is doubtful that we be playing RPGs today. His works were second only to Tolkien in terms of setting and rules, and he was a pioneer in breaking the "Fantasy Hero" stereotype. Up until Moorcock, your Hero in a "Swords & Sorcery" story (and most "Science Fiction Romances") was a big brawny guy, often a barbarian, who started off with nothing and worked his way up to being a king. Elric broke all those molds.

*shrug* I think Leiber, Burroughs, Howard, de Camp, Anderson, Smith and others did more than enough work to ensue that Gygax & co. had a rich heritage of Sword & Sorcery fiction to draw on. The "anti-hero" doesn't reality dominate RPG's until the late '80's / early '90's and then it's primarily as a result of Cyberpunk and Anne bloody Rice. Moorcock is in many ways a difficult influence for RPG's to adapt, as he is (often willfully) inconsistent even between books ostensibly in the same series about the same character in the same setting - the likes of Leiber and Tolkien and Burroughs and Howard did at least all try (to varying degrees) to build consistent worlds.

No he didn't write a lot of his stuff in one sitting. What he did do was write a lot of the early Elric stuff for the Sci-Fi pulp magazines of the time. Prior to the late 60s or so a lot, if not most science fiction and fantasy stories were sold in anthology magazines. Sort of mini-pulp books. The original Eric stories were serialised in one such magazine, and published in regular instalments. Moorcock actually killed Elric off rather quickly, then moved onto other things, only to be drawn back to Elric by the fans.

Sadly true. I love the original core Elric saga (the short stories in Stealer of Souls and the novel Stormbringer) and whilst some of the later stuff is quite fun, almost every addition sapped my enthusiasm to some degree. It took a real act of will to read anything after Fortress of the Pearl (which I thought was rather rote) and whilst I enjoyed Revenge of the Rose I really can't be bothered with the rest.

I much prefer Hawkmoon or Corum: same pace and energy, same imaginative flair and succinct storytelling, but they END properly. And I think the best thing MM's written is actually Mother London...

:focus:

SB5 is a compete BRP Sword and Sorcery fantasy game. With a little effort one can file the serial numbers of the Moorcock setting and use it for whatever one wishes. And it's currently $29.95 from Chaosium. It's a good value game - but it's not an essential purchase. If you are getting the new BRP book, put SB5/Elric! on your eBay "watch out for" list, but ahead of them put the Bronze Grimoire, a great magic supplement for Elric!/SB5 that will easily work with the new BRP book and greatly enhance the Sorcery system.

Cheers,

Nick Middleton

[Atgxtg]

My understanding is that initially Chaosium and TSR came to a perfectly civilised agreement that the next printing of D&DG would acknowledge Chaosium's license, and that Chaosium would do something similar in return, but the deal was scotched by a senior TSR executive who refused to sanction a deal that required TSR to "promote a competitors products."

Sounds about right for TSR at the time. Iv'e sen and heard a few things that suggest that they were not a nice company to deal with. Or more specifically that certain people high up were not nice to deal with. There are reasons why Dave Arneson went from cocreator into the mists of obscurity. MOst of the ones I heard weren't very nice reasons.

My understanding is that Moorcock WAS paid a royalty from the very first - maybe not a huge one, but there WERE payments. However, from the mid nineties Chaosium had severe financial difficulties (the CCG collapse, the collapse of the relationship with AH and the loss of RuneQuest, the departure of Greg Stafford and Glorantha, the Wizard's Attic debacle). During that time payments to Mike Moorcock were not as timely as they should have been, and there was an ongoing dispute over some payments, involving third party sub-licensed rights as well.

Mike wrote differently on his board. Where or not he remembers correctly, was being vengeful or was correct I can't prove or disprove.

Almost entirely inaccurate, according to what Matt Sprange of Mongoose has said. IIRC his accounts went something like this: Mongoose knew, from discussions with Chaosium, that Chaosium were prepared to sell their EC license. Mongoose approached Moorcock and offereed to buy the EC license off Chaosium, and would then re-negotiate an approvals and royalties deal with Mike Moorcock direct. MM was happy, Chaosium agreed, and the license "transferred" to Mongoose. Chaosium have the right to "sell through" their existing stock of EC material (at least for a period of time) I believe, but that's fairly standard in these sorts of situations.

Strange. If they were going to renegotiate anyway, why not cut out the middle man. I had read, again from Moorcock's board that he was threatening Chaosium with legal action.

Whatever the exact details of the dispute in recent years, he was for a large portion of the life of the license at Chaosium paid the agreed fees - and frankly, reading back through internet archives of public postings there's a lack of clarity in accounts from BOTH sides that rather suggests that things fell apart as much from a mutual lack of communication as for any other reason.

It does look like miscommunication seems to be a root cause. Maybe something happened when Chaosium started printing EC books? That was a change from producing RPG stuff and sort of a bold move for a company like Chaosium.

Albeit, given some of the things that M's sycophant's were saying at one point a few years ago, I find it deliciously ironic that one of the main writers at Mongoose for the EC license is Lawrence Whitaker...

Yes. It is funny consider how much some people complained about Whitaker that they ended up with him again. In some cases people have done a strange 180 degree shift in direction. There are a few Mongoose "fanboys" whose opinions seem to be colored more by the Mongoose logo on the cover than the content beneath the cover.

*shrug* I think Leiber, Burroughs, Howard, de Camp, Anderson, Smith and others did more than enough work to ensue that Gygax & co. had a rich heritage of Sword & Sorcery fiction to draw on. The "anti-hero" doesn't reality dominate RPG's until the late '80's / early '90's and then it's primarily as a result of Cyberpunk and Anne bloody Rice. Moorcock is in many ways a difficult influence for RPG's to adapt, as he is (often willfully) inconsistent even between books ostensibly in the same series about the same character in the same setting - the likes of Leiber and Tolkien and Burroughs and Howard did at least all try (to varying degrees) to build consistent worlds.

Certainly. There was a rich heritage. But I would say that it was Elric that really caused a shift in the sort of heroes we saw in heroic fantasy. There isn't much Howard, Burroughs de Camp, Anderson or Smith (Doc?) in Original D&D. More like 60% LOTR, 10% Medieval history, 15% Elric, 5% Vance's Magic, and 10% pole arms (Gygax's fascination with pole arms has me trying hard not to look at it in a Freudian light). I wish there were.

I'm surprised that we never got a Burrough-based RPG. Tarzan or Barsoom both have potential. I'm amazed that it took so long for an official Conan RPG to arrive. I'm disappointed that we never got any Poul Anderson inspired RPGs. I like his stuff.

Sadly true. I love the original core Elric saga (the short stories in Stealer of Souls and the novel Stormbringer) and whilst some of the later stuff is quite fun, almost every addition sapped my enthusiasm to some degree. It took a real act of will to read anything after Fortress of the Pearl (which I thought was rather rote) and whilst I enjoyed Revenge of the Rose I really can't be bothered with the rest.

Yeah. There is something about the original Elric stories. Artists seem to produce their best work hen they are suffering and miserable. I enjoy Corum, Erekose and Hawmoon, but the early Elric stories are special. The 70s Elric stuff is good, but after that it just isn't the same. Moorcock has aged almost 50 years since the first stories and is a different man. Unfortunately that has resulted in Elric aging and gaining a certain maturity that the original character lacked and actually died before acquiring. I have a problem accepting that the more recent Elric would go on to do the things (and make the mistakes) that the early Elric did. I think the new books are more like "What would Elric had become if the world had not ended?".

I much prefer Hawkmoon or Corum: same pace and energy, same imaginative flair and succinct storytelling, but they END properly. And I think the best thing MM's written is actually Mother London...

I prefer early Elric, followed by HAwkmoon/Erekose (toss up, John Daker's partial comprehension of things makes him a favorite of mine. He is one of the few who isn't a complete slave to his destiny, and is never a blind one). Corum seems to lack a certain empathy that the other have. Perhaps he is just more detatached?

:focus:

SB5 is a compete BRP Sword and Sorcery fantasy game. With a little effort one can file the serial numbers of the Moorcock setting and use it for whatever one wishes. And it's currently $29.95 from Chaosium. It's a good value game - but it's not an essential purchase. If you are getting the new BRP book, put SB5/Elric! on your eBay "watch out for" list, but ahead of them put the Bronze Grimoire, a great magic supplement for Elric!/SB5 that will easily work with the new BRP book and greatly enhance the Sorcery system.

Cheers,

Nick Middleton

True. Very little effort. Dump the geography and you can go with it. Take out the Law/Chaos stuff, and the Beast Lords and it is almost "RQ-lite".

Ah the Bronze Grimore. Boy did I have fun with that. One GM and I even based an entire campaign around one spell in that book. I never even cast the thing in play, either. I just used it for backstory. The one where you turn someone into a statue. I had a Melnibonean PC use it on her husband. That was how she got exiled (she refused to turn him back, and if they killed her he'd stay that way. So they exiled her and she'd change her mind, right?). One spell got the whole ball rolling on that campaign.

[Camillus]

I'm amazed that it took so long for an official Conan RPG to arrive.

I'm not sure it did take that long. TSR's Conan* game appeared in 1985 and GURPS Conan was 1989. We then had a long gap until 2004 and Mongoose's offering but I suspect that's reflection of the value of the license rather than a lack of desire to produce a game.

Although Moorcock is well known amongst fans of fantasy literature he doesn't have a lot of recognition outside that group whereas Conan is a name that many people have heard of. I'm pretty sure that the REH estate took a lot more persuading than MM did to grant a license for a game.

*You can pick up a copy of the rules (without setting information) for free here.