Question about binding enchantment on an elemental

[DrGoth]

Was wondering how exactly binding an elemental into an item works. I've read the rules a few times but I still don't think I have it completely right.

First of all you'd need to sacrifice a point of characteristic POW, as the binding enchantment rune spell is not common rune magic (per the table on p.317). You now have access to the spell.

I'm assuming you'd need to be able to summon the elemental.  Summon elemental doesn't appear to be covered by the comment rune spell 'Summon cult spirit' as it turns up the list of special rune magic (cf. lists of special rune magic Ernalda, p. 293, Orlanth p.301, Seven Mothers, p. 303).

Per 'Binding Enchantment' (p.321 and p.249) you'd need to sacrifice 3 pts of characteristic power, as elementals have three characteristics.

I'm assuming you would summon the elemental first (so making that roll), and then (assuming success) make the binding enchantment roll.  Do you need to roll for Command Elemental before the binding?  Or does the binding take the place of the command?  When you do roll for the binding, do you have to roll POW vs POW?  Or just the spell success (I assume the former, but...) .

If you use Ritual Practices, can you use that for the binding?  My reading of the rules says no, as the summon spell would prevent you. You could use ritual Practices for the summon, but I doubt the elemental would stick around to do that. But this seems a bit odd to me, as the summon is likely to be easy (based off a Rune that's likely to be high) whereas the binding would be much harder, if it is a POW vs POW roll.

Anyway, as you can see, there are some parts of this I'm not getting, so any help appreciated.

[Squaredeal Sten]

I believe you have to

(1) Prepare your binding item, yes 3 points of enchantment in this case for the elemental's 3 characteristics.

(2) Summon - or have someone else summon.

(3) Control with a POW vs POW  especially if someone else summoned it, for example an enemy.

(4) Bind. PoW vs POW.

Like you I see ritual practices as supporting the first spell but not being able to support a different spell with  the same ritual, because the caster has to. concentrate on one spell at a time. 

But in a team effort someone else might summon, so the second person's  ritual could help with the second person's control.

[Scotty]

1 hour ago, DrGoth said:

Was wondering how exactly binding an elemental into an item works. I've read the rules a few times but I still don't think I have it completely right.

First of all you'd need to sacrifice a point of characteristic POW, as the binding enchantment rune spell is not common rune magic (per the table on p.317). You now have access to the spell.

Firstly per RQG 288: Enchantments These are the enchantment Rune spells and special rituals that may only be learned by God-talkers, Rune Priests, or Rune Lords.

If you are not a Rune level, you need to pay for a binding enchantment to be made, or learn the Spirit Magic version (In the core Rules, available from Aldrya, Daka Fal, Seven Mothers, Waha and to their associates - cults that have shaman).

1 hour ago, DrGoth said:

I'm assuming you'd need to be able to summon the elemental.

Yes

1 hour ago, DrGoth said:

Summon elemental doesn't appear to be covered by the common rune spell 'Summon cult spirit' as it turns up the list of special rune magic (cf. lists of special rune magic Ernalda, p. 293, Orlanth p.301, Seven Mothers, p. 303).

or the spirit magic of Summon (entity) (as above)

1 hour ago, DrGoth said:

Per 'Binding Enchantment' (p.321 and p.249) you'd need to sacrifice 3 pts of characteristic power, as elementals have three characteristics.

Correct.

1 hour ago, DrGoth said:

I'm assuming you would summon the elemental first (so making that roll), and then (assuming success) make the binding enchantment roll.

No. You can make a binding enchantment for future use and do the summoning and binding separately.

1 hour ago, DrGoth said:

Do you need to roll for Command Elemental before the binding? Or does the binding take the place of the command? 

You command the Elemental into the binding (or use Spirit Binding)

1 hour ago, DrGoth said:

When you do roll for the binding, do you have to roll POW vs POW?  Or just the spell success (I assume the former, but...) .

As part of the Command, note that Spirit Binding has no POW vs POW roll.

1 hour ago, DrGoth said:

If you use Ritual Practices, can you use that for the binding?  My reading of the rules says no, as the summon spell would prevent you. You could use ritual Practices for the summon, but I doubt the elemental would stick around to do that. But this seems a bit odd to me, as the summon is likely to be easy (based off a Rune that's likely to be high) whereas the binding would be much harder, if it is a POW vs POW roll.

You can use ritual practices to augment an opposed roll. But you can do it before the summon:

• 30 mins Ritual practice
• Cast Summon Elemental and Cast Command Cult spirit together per RBM (so only one Rune roll).
• POW vs POW + Ritual practice bonus

If this happens off stage, is a cult spirit, and the adventurer spends a few days (or a week) doing it with Ritual practice, getting their POW vs POW to over 100% success the GM can allow auto success as it's not a dramatic circumstance per RQG page 141. This especially so if it's the adventurer's usual elemental (you get the same one each time). Note that a large elemental can have a POW of up to 10D6 in some cases...

[Enthar]

Thank you for the guidance, that cleared it up for me as well!  Some add on questions:

Can you use Skills at the end of that 30 minutes of Ritual practice to further Augment your odds, if required?  For example, the cover of the RBM (one of the most beautiful pieces of art I've seen by the way!) has her dancing, would you be able to Ritual Practice for x time, then use Sing/Dance/Speak Spiritspeech for 2 melee rounds before casting the Summon/Command combo without losing the benefit of the Ritual Practice?

What Rune(s) would be permissible to invoke to help here?  Moon only, or would the elementals Rune work, or only Spirit Rune (which typically isn't something we have access to).   

 

Thank you!

Edited March 25, 2023 by Enthar
Adding thank you :)

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 hours ago, Enthar said:

Thank you for the guidance, that cleared it up for me as well!  Some add on questions:

Can you use Skills at the end of that 30 minutes of Ritual practice to further Augment your odds, if required?  For example, the cover of the RBM (one of the most beautiful pieces of art I've seen by the way!) has her dancing, would you be able to Ritual Practice for x time, then use Sing/Dance/Speak Spiritspeech for 2 melee rounds before casting the Summon/Command combo without losing the benefit of the Ritual Practice?

What Rune(s) would be permissible to invoke to help here?  Moon only, or would the elementals Rune work, or only Spirit Rune (which typically isn't something we have access to).   

 

Thank you!

The rules are vague here.  We ruled that one could also Sing / Dance etc. for 2 rounds.  And you can always try a rune: Moon should work.  Most GMs might allow others.

Normally, one cannot do both Sing AND a Rune.  Only one augment.  Occasional GMs might be liberal and allow both.

(Added clarification)
TL;DR 

1. One can do ritual preparation of some length the GM must limit, and then take a "couple" of rounds, again determined by the GM, to augment with Sing or Dance. 
2. One can do ritual preparation of some length the GM must limit, and then invoke an "appropriate" Rune or Passion to augment via Inspiration.  Moon works, as might others at the GM's determination.
3. One cannot combine the augments from Sing and a Rune.  Unless the GM agrees that this is a truly special place to go beyond the rules.

RQG has a lot of vague rules where you need a good, or at least a consistent, GM to rule.  I think this is deliberate design decision, and many consider this flexibility a good thing.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Rodney Dangerduck
added clarification

[Scotty]

14 hours ago, Enthar said:

Can you use Skills at the end of that 30 minutes of Ritual practice to further Augment your odds, if required? 

Yes, per page 244. Skills or Runes.

14 hours ago, Enthar said:

For example, the cover of the RBM (one of the most beautiful pieces of art I've seen by the way!) has her dancing, would you be able to Ritual Practice for x time, then use Sing/Dance/Speak Spiritspeech for 2 melee rounds before casting the Summon/Command combo without losing the benefit of the Ritual Practice?

Yes. Don't forget Ritual Practices also include dancing, singing, and speaking. I'd allow as many rounds as the caster wants, up to the double normal chance limit.

14 hours ago, Enthar said:

What Rune(s) would be permissible to invoke to help here? Moon only, or would the elementals Rune work, or only Spirit Rune (which typically isn't something we have access to).

Depending on which you are trying to summon, use the appropriate elemental rune (Seven mothers use the Moon Rune to summon any elemental).

The Spirit Rune is a form Rune and so only available to spirits. For example a Daka Fal ancestor Would use the Spirit Rune to cast Rune magic as they have no Man Rune form anymore.