Question for the lucky handful with the book

[Nightshade]

Argh. Someone emailed me a list of the uses and I can't find it!

I recall that there were a few other uses, such as altering the success level of an attack. I think there was a option to turn a success into a failure, and that it was usually cheaper than buying off damage point by point. I think it was 7 PP.

That would certainly help at least; its probably not going to help if the giant critted you, but at least it'd address the more common sudden-death cases.

[Nightshade]

It is going to be limited in the above situation. But then, someone foolishly went after a Dragon without proper prep (proper armor, magical protection, etc). If the character did go in prepared, and had

Even with all that, there's simply cases where the dice hate you, or when the dragon or his allies dispels your magic. Because RQ/BRP involves a big, essentially linear die roll, there's a little too much opportunity for bad luck to pretty much come out of nowhere just because of the swings in potential result; consider just the fact that with 96+ being an automatic failure on defenses, and 01s always being crits, that one in about 2000 rolls is going to crit you no matter what your skill or your opponents. That's obviously a very extreme case, but its also a best-case scenario for a defender, and over the course of a campaign where any significant combat occurs, I'd put bets the net set of attacks and defenses approaches that number.

That said, with the category reduction, that probably is the better choice in all but the marginal cases anyway (or in cases where categories are irrelevant like some attack magic).

[Nightshade]

In the Interest of being Fair and Balanced I am going to agree with Nightshade on this one.

Though this is automagic (forcing something with a skill of 95% to re-roll is not) it becomes severely limited in use.

Take a Dragon for example, even with 18PP you can only reduce damage by 6, which is pretty much going to be useless. And when fighting dragons is when you want a mechanic like this to work.

Or with massive crits, yes.

[Atgxtg]

That would certainly help at least; its probably not going to help if the giant critted you, but at least it'd address the more common sudden-death cases.

Au contraire. Assuming that a critical parry still blocks everything then upping your own success level would do the job. Once. If you got a lot of POW maybe twice.

[Nightshade]

Oops, I missed the "per point of damage" before. OK, so it's not super-powerful like I thought but instead it's insipid. And, without a roll involved, where's the excitement? It's just a bit too calculated, not Heroic. And all the other ways to spend PP makes it too complicated.

Where would this lead? One side spending points to re-roll better hits and increase damage, the other side spending points to downgrade those hits and then (maybe) negate some damage too. So, everyone's out of PP by the second round - and then the real fight can start!?

In practice it can work that way, but honestly, that's okay; it still reduces swings of bad luck, which is pretty much the point.

One of the least attractive features of BRP (at least with full blown RQ) for many people is how remarkably easy it is to just get a bad roll (and not even necessarily yours) and get taken out in a relatively trivial fight where you fundamentally did nothing wrong; it tends to be a deal-breaker for using the system for certain groups even with campaigns it'd otherwise be attractive for. This is a straightforward effect of two features of the system: 1. Attack and Defense are relatively linear (so that even relatively high levels of defensive skill--90% parries for example--still fail fairly frequently in an absolute sense), and 2. The system can be rather unforgiving of damage (if you don't have a lot of magical protection--or your opponents have similar levels of magical augmentation--even regular hits can end up being pretty lethal depending on where they hit, let alone things like impales or crits).

You can't completely buffer bad luck, nor, in the end, do you usually want to except in very stylized games, but there's matters of degree here.

[Atgxtg]

Oops, I missed the "per point of damage" before. OK, so it's not super-powerful like I thought but instead it's insipid.

We'll there are several methods to invoke this. Personally I'd have preferred a 1-1 basis with a CAP per attack of something like 1/2 POW. I did assume a 1-1 basis for my Spot Rules I posted a month back.

Although I'dprobably use the "bump success levels" option, now that I know it exists. It worked great in Bond.

And, without a roll involved, where's the excitement?

I think you are missing the purpose of the points. They are not there to add to the excitement, but to help mitigate some of the extreme effects-especially when players have little they can do about them.

Case in point, long ago in a campaign, the GM got a hot hand and criticalled every PC in the first two rounds of battle. No one's fault, dice do that at times. The net effect was that suddenly, the whole group was wiped out, the adventure was stopped dead, and everything was back to square one. All from what was, a "wandering monster".

That's the sort of things that hero points can address.

It's just a bit too calculated, not Heroic. And all the other ways to spend PP makes it too complicated.

I don't think the spending 6 to alter a success level is too complicated. If you think it is, then stay clear of any of the magic sections. Functionally it is simpler than casting Protection 6, and will a shorter duration.

As for it not being heroic. in what way. The idea is for the points to let people act herorically. Simply letting the dice fall where they may tends to work counter to that. If the bad guys got the hero pinned down with a machinegun, a heroic setting would have some way for a PC to move up to the machinegune nest and toss in a grenade. In the real world, that get's accomplished with a lot of luck and a lot more casualties. John Wayne might make it, but a dozen other guys get mowed down.

In "straight" BRP combat. "Big John" is just an easy target. By the time he canclose the distance to the machinegune next, he will be shot of several times and be "Dead John".

Points let you get around that. At least somewhat. The excitement is that the points are limited, so while John might be able to avoid one or two hits, he still has the rest of the battle to get through, and so must use the points wisely.

Where would this lead? One side spending points to re-roll better hits and increase damage, the other side spending points to downgrade those hits and then (maybe) negate some damage too. So, everyone's out of PP by the second round - and then the real fight can start!?

If you give both sides the same amount of points all the time, yeah. Like I posted in another thread, if you give a squad of 20 stormtroopers points to spend, they will become an insurmountable obstacle.

THe idea is that the points should either only be available to the major characters, or be alloted in proportion to the character's significance. So an extra would get not or very few, while a major villain would get a lot.

My only real issue with the points is how they are regenerated. POW is okay for "Luck" points. But I'd have preferred a method of earning new ones rather than regenerating POW.

[Nightshade]

Au contraire. Assuming that a critical parry still blocks everything then upping your own success level would do the job. Once. If you got a lot of POW maybe twice.

Well, I'm thinking of this in regard to an RQ3/4 variant, so if the giant critted, even if you both did, its still not necessarily going to go well for you; and if you're limited to personal Power, most people aren't going to be able to slide this more than at most two total levels at 7 poitns a pop.

[frogspawner]

One of the least attractive features of BRP (at least with full blown RQ) for many people is how remarkably easy it is to just get a bad roll ...

You can't completely buffer bad luck, nor, in the end, do you usually want to except in very stylized games, but there's matters of degree here.

I still hope to devise a system that buffers it better (without massive PP expenditure in Round 1 by both sides, farcically attempting to out-Hero each other). Currently I'm trying a "Defence x PP spent" % chance to avoid 10/20/All damage ('Defence' starting low, 0-ish, but increasing for good RP). Hopefully, it should reduce thos Bad Rolls by nearly a factor of 20. We'll see how it goes.

If you give both sides the same amount of points all the time, yeah. Like I posted in another thread, if you give a squad of 20 stormtroopers points to spend, they will become an insurmountable obstacle.

THe idea is that the points should either only be available to the major characters, or be alloted in proportion to the character's significance. So an extra would get not or very few, while a major villain would get a lot.

Understood. I was assuming the 'grand denouement' with the villains - the encounter that you least want to degenerate into farce.

I don't think the spending 6 to alter a success level is too complicated. If you think it is, then stay clear of any of the magic sections. Functionally it is simpler than casting Protection 6, and will a shorter duration.

I meant the array of different BRP options makes it too complicated. OK, the GM may only use one or none, but he may allow any, or any combination... too much!

I think you are missing the purpose of the points. They are not there to add to the excitement, but to help mitigate some of the extreme effects-especially when players have little they can do about them.

Case in point, long ago in a campaign, the GM got a hot hand and criticalled every PC in the first two rounds of battle.

Ooo, nasty! I do get the purpose - but I think Fate/Luck/Hero points can be used for that in some way that also doesn't detract from the excitement too much. Having a totally reliable way to escape killing blows would spoil it, for me. I reckon the system I'm now trying would have saved most of your unfortunately criticalled PCs (but just cost them some/all of their power points...)

As for it not being heroic. in what way.

To be Heroic, you need to be taking a risk. If your Fate Points options guarantee you a way out - there's no risk. Totting up points to buy your way out of danger makes you an Accountant, not a Hero.

My only real issue with the points is how they are regenerated. POW is okay for "Luck" points. But I'd have preferred a method of earning new ones rather than regenerating POW.

I hope combining an earned "Luck" (Defence) skill with having to pay PP to use it will do the trick. (BTW, I'll be checking out your spot rules straight away. Sorry for not spotting them sooner! )

[Lord Twig]

One of the least attractive features of BRP (at least with full blown RQ) for many people is how remarkably easy it is to just get a bad roll (and not even necessarily yours) and get taken out in a relatively trivial fight where you fundamentally did nothing wrong; it tends to be a deal-breaker for using the system for certain groups even with campaigns it'd otherwise be attractive for.

Of course other groups appreciate that combat is "dangerous" and that there is a chance that they will be taken out of the fight by one lucky hit. As long as the whole group doesn't die the characters that fell can be healed back up by the ones who made it through the battle.

I think you are missing the purpose of the points. They are not there to add to the excitement, but to help mitigate some of the extreme effects-especially when players have little they can do about them.

Case in point, long ago in a campaign, the GM got a hot hand and criticalled every PC in the first two rounds of battle. No one's fault, dice do that at times. The net effect was that suddenly, the whole group was wiped out, the adventure was stopped dead, and everything was back to square one. All from what was, a "wandering monster".

That's the sort of things that hero points can address.

It can also be addressed by GM fudging. I know some people have an unreasoning hatred of GM fudging, but it is a time honored tool. If I roll one critical, fine. Two? Bad luck for them. A third? Well, maybe I'll save that for later. The players certainly aren't going to suspect that I am cheating in their favor, I already rolled two critical successes against them!

[frogspawner]

Personally I'd have preferred a 1-1 basis with a CAP per attack of something like 1/2 POW. I did assume a 1-1 basis for my Spot Rules I posted a month back.

(BTW, I'll be checking out your spot rules straight away. Sorry for not spotting them sooner! )

Aha! Buried in "Old West Spot Rules" - no wonder I missed 'em (soz, not a western fan).

They're good: clean and simple. Pretty close in essence to the system I'm trying. Having to make a Luck Roll before you get the benefit seems a bit too chancy, though. (Some risk is all you need to be a Hero - too much and you're just some other dead guy, before long). Mine's a bit clunkier but should let you escape/survive at least one Killer Blow, up to 95% of the time - if you care to spend the PP, that is...

[frogspawner]

It can also be addressed by GM fudging. I know some people have an unreasoning hatred of GM fudging, but it is a time honored tool.

With all due respect, my Lord, but you can keep yer 'time honoured tool'! Maybe it's lack of fudging confidence, but as GM I want the support of a system I can trust - then I can sit back and enjoy the unfolding story, like the rest of 'em...

[Lord Twig]

With all due respect, my Lord, but you can keep yer 'time honoured tool'! Maybe it's lack of fudging confidence, but as GM I want the support of a system I can trust - then I can sit back and enjoy the unfolding story, like the rest of 'em...

Certainly! To each their own. I just wanted to point out that there has been a solution to this problem that has worked very well for decades.

[Nightshade]

Of course other groups appreciate that combat is "dangerous" and that there is a chance that they will be taken out of the fight by one lucky hit. As long as the whole group doesn't die the characters that fell can be healed back up by the ones who made it through the battle.

That only applies if the characters aren't dead or are in a setting that permits resurrection, _and_ that have the resources to do it. That's a rather large number of ifs.

It can also be addressed by GM fudging. I know some people have an unreasoning hatred of GM fudging, but it is a time honored tool. If I roll one

I consider it the last resort of bad design, personally. If I have to do that with any frequency at all (and by that I mean more than once or twice in a campaign) its a message to me that my game system is misdesigned, my campaign is inappropriate for the system, or both. While it works well for some people, we've always considered it at best the lesser of two evils, and anything I can do to minimize it is a virtue.

[Nightshade]

Certainly! To each their own. I just wanted to point out that there has been a solution to this problem that has worked very well for decades.

This, however, turns on a rather specific definition of "worked very well".

[Atgxtg]

Well, I'm thinking of this in regard to an RQ3/4 variant, so if the giant critted, even if you both did, its still not necessarily going to go well for you; and if you're limited to personal Power, most people aren't going to be able to slide this more than at most two total levels at 7 poitns a pop.

Ah, but since a parry success bumbs the crti down to a special, bring it down to a miss is doable. Spend 14 MPs or play tent peg? Either way a no brainer! :eek:

[Nightshade]

Ah, but since a parry success bumbs the crti down to a special, bring it down to a miss is doable. Spend 14 MPs or play tent peg? Either way a no brainer! :eek:

Note what I said I was using it for; RQ3/4 parries didn't reduce quality of attack; they just threw a piece of something in the way. While better than nothing, that's not always enough, especially if whatever it was had taken a bit of a pounding.