Religion, Satire, and MGF

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

A very interesting question, in the light of the Humakti broos of Dorastor.

But aren’t they — yawn! — power gaming illuminates? (Or if they are not power gaming, their boss is.) Maybe they would be expected to have enough relief from torment to maintain discipline. And to be reflective enough not to think that just because they have joined a cult, it or its deity must be chaotic, too.

I cannot comment on the soon to be revealed Humakt, but the Humakt of old didn’t seem that arsed about chaos. Possibly, he just isn’t. Possibly, he thinks that the whole sorry mess can be traced back to him, so he should keep quiet and let Eurmal, Orlanth, and Ragnaglar take the flak.

56 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

once you experi[ence] Humakt, you are still somewhere

“Death” as deportation? I like to think that Humakt tours all the hells and valhallas assuring his customers that he is glad that they chose death by discarding their perforated bodies or jumping down a designated hole, that he is sorry for the wait in the ante-room (there are a lot of customers to process, and each deserves his personal touch), but that he will get around to killing them as soon as he can. Puts the willies right up them, and he doesn’t get a lot of laughs in his line of work, otherwise.

(Ethilrist’s trick is always to have his diary to hand. “When did you say, Humakt, old boy? No, sorry can’t make the Twelfth — clashes with a prior commitment. Maybe next time. The exit is this way, yes? Toodle-oo!”)

As the owner of , cannot Humakt be presumed to govern death in all its forms, including being killed in hell, and being swallowed by Kajabor, even if there are these half-arsed holiday camp play deaths on the market, too? It is customers’ preference for shoddy alcopop deaths over the aged single malt of /dev/null that makes him so depressed.

[Ali the Helering]

40 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

But aren’t they — yawn! — power gaming illuminates?

I know some fans have suggested that, but I don't recall seeing it in the source material.  If you could point the way I would be grateful.  Otherwise I see no reason to suppose it to be the case.

[Darius West]

On 5/11/2023 at 3:15 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

As I understand things, Praxian - Broo alliances happen frequently.  (This factoid shocked our old-timey Glorantha group, but I don't think we played much of the Praxian material)

Given that pretty much every Praxian major deity hates chaos passionately, I don't see how their followers can ever justify allying with broos, or scorpionmen, or any chaos creatures.  I strongly doubt there are enough illuminated Chieftains to make this even remotely plausible, plus how likely is it that they will be overthrown on the spot, murdered by Stormbulls and then the whole clan goes on an anti-chaos rampage against their new "allie"?  I think such Praxian/Chaotic alliances would need to be highly covert at best.

[Akhôrahil]

15 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Given that pretty much every Praxian major deity hates chaos passionately, I don't see how their followers can ever justify allying with broos, or scorpionmen, or any chaos creatures.  I strongly doubt there are enough illuminated Chieftains to make this even remotely plausible, plus how likely is it that they will be overthrown on the spot, murdered by Stormbulls and then the whole clan goes on an anti-chaos rampage against their new "allie"?  I think such Praxian/Chaotic alliances would need to be highly covert at best.

Makes sense to me that this isn't something you do too publicly, agree (if nothing else, it's nothing to be proud about). There might be unofficial channels for these kinds of things, and as chief, you call on someone to set it up. There are multiple reasons to keep the Broos far away from your people, even when you call on them as mercenaries.  

On the other hand, I don't think it needs to be kept completely secret - Praxians can be pragmatic, and a lot of them are likely to go "yes, this sure is distasteful, but what can you do?"

[Manunancy]

That sort of deals in my opnion would usually be brokered through some middleman - say a gagarthi band, some half loon outcast chaman and the like. Probably along a line of 'we can redirect the broos that planned to attack you while you deal with those guys will attacks them instead'.

Nope, not an alliance, just a stroke of good luck, nothing worng with that...

Edited May 15, 2023 by Manunancy

[DrGoth]

16 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

 

I cannot comment on the soon to be revealed Humakt, but the Humakt of old didn’t seem that arsed about chaos.

Of course he isn't.  He's illuminated.

[Kloster]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

Given that pretty much every Praxian major deity hates chaos passionately, I don't see how their followers can ever justify allying with broos, or scorpionmen, or any chaos creatures.

IIRC, the praxian side in Moonbrooth had some broos.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

Given that pretty much every Praxian major deity hates chaos passionately

I (and our RQ group) agree with you 99.9%.

Take it up with Jeff and others at Chaosium.

[jajagappa]

5 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Take it up with Jeff and others at Chaosium.

It's been a fact of life in Prax since Nomad Gods. And there are those willing to make a bargain with the Devil's kin... 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

15 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

It's been a fact of life in Prax since Nomad Gods. And there are those willing to make a bargain with the Devil's kin... 

1. Gloranthan gods are totally real, worshippers know for an absolute fact that they are real, and know that they will be punished or rewarded for their actions.
2. Gloranthans (in this case, Praxians, who include lots of Storm Bulls) are pragmatic and will often ally with chaos.

Its difficult to accept both of these...  I conclude that #2 is false, one of many totally natural missteps made in the long and wonderful development of Glorantha.

[mfbrandi]

19 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

I know some fans have suggested that, but I don't recall seeing it in the source material.  If you could point the way I would be grateful.  Otherwise I see no reason to suppose it to be the case.

Well, my rash question had two bits:

• illumination of the Humakti broos in Dorastor
• exploitation of illumination as a power play by those broos or their bosses

Is this a fannish invention or did it come from a legit Chaosium source (albeit one that may be long outdated, not truly describable using the ‘c’ word)?

First part first: it is I hope uncontroversial that Ralzakark and some of his underlings (e.g. Shrike) are Nysalor illuminates. But what about the footsoldiers, are they illuminates, too, or just well disciplined? There is this:

Quote

Typical Sword Troop Broo: Nysalor illuminate and Humakt initiate. — Dorastor, Land of Doom, p. 82 (NPC stat block)

It says “typical”, not “every”, and I would welcome some Humakti broo who have discipline — possibly through H. cult exercises — but not illumination.

Second part: Is illumination in Dorastor a power play, or at least, ruthlessly exploited to gain power by those who happened to be illuminated? I think it is part of the common culture (i.e. fans and Chaosium) that this sometimes happens. I am quite happy to go with the idea that Nysalorean illumination is one of the marks of civilization, so of course Ralzakark and many of his followers are illuminated — he is a refined and cultured fellow.

Maybe he is not big on any of the following: Realpolitik (“Massing on the border? We should do what? No, no no! Fetch my lute: I have an opera to compose.”); succumbing to the Dark Side (“Boring and rather vulgar.”); Arkati paranoia (“What is wrong with these people?”). I would like that.

23 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Which means that some do, and can maintain their position in the cult.  So for them, perhaps, he [Humakt] is [Chaos].

There is this:

Quote

Humakt is the human name for Death … we know he is the greatest of the Lords of Terror, for he is the Harbinger of Chaos … His sword made the great wounds in the world through which chaos oozed, and it liberated Gbaji in the Chaos Wars, so that now he is present in all of the world. — Lords of Terror, p. 8 (What the Sword Broo Says)

That seems quite sensible to me, as IMHO, Humakt is death, all death, in whatever flavour and no matter who is doing the killing. Orlanth and company wouldn’t disagree that death let Chaos in. Does that mean Humakt has the Chaos rune, if only from the perspective of the broo Humakti (as with broo worshippers of Mallia)? I am not a big fan of hanging a Chaos rune on every deity with chaotic worshippers? What does it mean? What is it for a god to be “associated” with a rune, anyway?

Of course, if one takes the view that Death and Chaos are both about endings, that they are maybe the same thing or at least overlap …

So my having Humakt ask whether he was Chaos was not rhetorical in the sense of assuming an answer. (It was, of course, an afterthought.)

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Gloranthan gods are totally real, worshippers know for an absolute fact that they are real, and know that they will be punished or rewarded for their actions.

Gloranthan gods are not omnipotent. 

And if the worshipers do not commit chaotic acts (hiring Chaos not necessarily being one), and their action helps counter their other foe, then such bargains can occur.

[Eff]

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

1. Gloranthan gods are totally real, worshippers know for an absolute fact that they are real, and know that they will be punished or rewarded for their actions.
2. Gloranthans (in this case, Praxians, who include lots of Storm Bulls) are pragmatic and will often ally with chaos.

Its difficult to accept both of these...  I conclude that #2 is false, one of many totally natural missteps made in the long and wonderful development of Glorantha.

Well, there's an implicit 3 in there:

3. The Praxian religious system doesn't consider the recruitment of broo (or the use of any of the Chaotic spirits from Nomad Gods up to and including Thed) a source of impurity that puts the gods' noses out of joint.

Which does resolve that disparity for this specific case. We can also propose a 4 and a 5:

4. Because Praxians are known for their stern attitude towards Chaos and Chaotic things, most of the rest of Glorantha should be at most as willing to tolerate interactions with Chaotic entities on this level, and probably more tolerant, on an overall social level. 

5. If this level of interaction with Chaotic entities is generally acceptable on a religious level, then it is extremely questionable whether the absolutist statements about Chaos's inimicality towards life should be taken as truthful on their face, and if we do take them as truthful on their face, we should then question the competence of the gods directly. 

This is of course disquieting and upsetting and all that, but perhaps it's worth playing out. 

[mfbrandi]

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

1. Gloranthan gods are … real,
   worshippers know … that they will be punished or rewarded for their actions …
2. Praxians … are pragmatic and will often ally with chaos.

• What if the gods are real but they are not much like people, and they would no more sit in judgement on mortals than a hurricane or an earthquake would?
• What if the Praxians think they will be punished tomorrow but the battle needing broo allies is today?
• What if the Praxians attribute their own mortal morals to their gods as a way of adding a bit of weight to their pronouncements? (“Eat your greens or Jesus will be cross” — or whatever.) We don’t always live up to our own standards, and we have a million excuses as to why in this case, we haven’t broken any rules, anyway.

IRL — I reckon — there are millions of people (maybe more) who believe in divine punishment but break what they believe to be their god’s or gods’ laws. It happens all the time. IRL believers are not a second-rate lot who believe in their gods less wholeheartedly than Gloranthans do.

Finally, think of Faust. Is it the story of:

1. a man who foolishly didn’t believe in divine punishment?
2. a man who did believe in divine punishment but foolishly made a deal with the devil, anyway?

Doubtless versions vary, but doesn’t option 2 make for a better story?

[General Confusion]

People make 'deals with chaos' all the time. To Orlanthi, kinstrife is chaos - but it still happens. To the Dara Happans rebellion against the Emperor is chaos, but it definitely happens. Nobody in Glorantha can see Chaos rune values. Storm Bulls claim they can detect Chaos, but not everybody believes them - certainly not all the time.

Most Gloranthans probably are not digging into highly specific philosophical divisions like we readers and fans do. From the perspective of people in Glorantha, chaos is bad because it's dangerous and likely to hurt them . . . But a lot of Gloranthans also feel that way about foreigners, and unfamiliar magic, and strange spirits/gods. So if a Khan can make a temporary truce or alliance with foreigners who don't follow Waha's ways (and are thus by definition ritually unclean, inferior, not real people, etc.) then why couldn't he, similarly, make a temporary truce or alliance with a gang of broos? Yeah, sure, broos are dangerous and unpleasant and can't be trusted. . . But many Praxians would also say the same of, for example, Kralorelans, or Pentans, or Lunars, or Sartarites. You make the deals you need to make so the tribe can prosper today, and then tomorrow if necessary you can change your mind.

Edited May 13, 2023 by General Confusion

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 hours ago, General Confusion said:

So if a Khan can make a temporary truce or alliance with foreigners who don't follow Waha's ways (and are thus by definition ritually unclean, inferior, not real people, etc.) then why couldn't he, similarly, make a temporary truce or alliance with a gang of broos?

Foreigners worship, say, Orlanth or Yelmalio.  Some weird foreign god who likes horses, icky, but, whatever...  I can easily see subtleties and compromises there.

Broo largely worship Malia or Thed, who are two thirds of the freaking Unholy Trio.   Big difference.

[metcalph]

Not every Praxian is an intiate of Waha or Eiritha - some worship other gods with a more... pragmatic view.  These could be safely used by the khans as intermediaries without offending religious taboos.  They won't be saying anything as open as "you think you could get in touch with the broos" but more like "I hope we'll not be fighting downwind of any broos".  

DAKA FAL:  Hates all gods and is an associate of Thed.  Now the two have largely seperate sets of ancestors but there is a potential for a common ancestor for any Broo and Praxian (granted, they would be usually be evil or malign to the one side).  They could be the basis for safe communication over a distance.

HUMAKT: is neutral to a lot of chaotic gods including Thed.  A Humakti Broo would be rather rare in the wastes but they could exist and the Humakti might know where to find them.  A possible scenario: an initiate in trouble for a lackadaisical attitude to the laws of Armed Conflict might be sent to find a Humakti Broo and challenge him to a duel to bring home its importance.   A similar argument exists for Scorpionmen. 

SEVEN MOTHERS:  Enlightened attitude to Chaos.  'Nuff Said.

SUNSET SOCIETY:  Secret and Evil.  Who knows what they think about Chaos?

What about the Storm Bullies?  The worshippers of Storm Bull are not part of normal Praxian society and largely form boisterous brotherhoods that do their own thing.  The Praxians might know where they are and give warning to the Broos about their location in return for being left alone etc.

[scott-martin]

19 hours ago, Eff said:

3. The Praxian religious system doesn't consider the recruitment of broo (or the use of any of the Chaotic spirits from Nomad Gods up to and including Thed) a source of impurity that puts the gods' noses out of joint.

3A. The Praxian religious system "currently" (ST 1616-25+) considers the recruitment of broo a source of impurity but this will change in the Hero Wars period. Ancient prohibitions bend in the reconstruction of the Jaldon Games. Because it is off screen from the action in King of Sartar, we just don't know about it yet . . . but what we actually know about the terminal third age can fit into a leaky bucket when the house is on fire.

[Nick Brooke]

A very good point. Remember, most of the irritating Storm Khans and Storm Bullies who try to stop Waha Khans taking pragmatic decisions for the good of their tribes have sodded off West into Argrath's meat-mincer. And a greater proclivity for leaders (not just in Prax) to take abhorrent decisions "for the greater good" may be symptomatic of the rise of Wakboth (the Devil of Moral Evil), a feature of crisis at the end of this and every other Age.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Nick Brooke

[soltakss]

On 5/12/2023 at 9:25 AM, Darius West said:

On 5/10/2023 at 6:15 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

As I understand things, Praxian - Broo alliances happen frequently.  (This factoid shocked our old-timey Glorantha group, but I don't think we played much of the Praxian material)

Given that pretty much every Praxian major deity hates chaos passionately, I don't see how their followers can ever justify allying with broos, or scorpionmen, or any chaos creatures.  I strongly doubt there are enough illuminated Chieftains to make this even remotely plausible, plus how likely is it that they will be overthrown on the spot, murdered by Stormbulls and then the whole clan goes on an anti-chaos rampage against their new "allie"?  I think such Praxian/Chaotic alliances would need to be highly covert at best.

It is simple, really.

You ally with Broos and send them against your enemies. In the battle many Broos die and many of your enemies die. That is a win-win situation, as broos die and your enemies die.

 

[mfbrandi]

4 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

And a greater proclivity for leaders … to take abhorrent decisions "for the greater good" may be symptomatic of the rise of Wakboth (the Devil of Moral Evil), a feature of crisis at the end of this and every other Age.

Hmm … or “Wakboth is rising” is just another way of saying “our leaders are making ever more horrific decisions” or even “we are making ever more horrific decisions.”

I mean, being unmarried is not really a symptom of being a bachelor — not if you are a pathologist.

[mfbrandi]

15 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Broo largely worship Malia or Thed

Mallia: valued provider of ecosystem services (like Mee Vorala).
Thed:   blamed victim.

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, soltakss said:

It is simple, really.

You ally with Broos and send them against your enemies. In the battle many Broos die and many of your enemies die. That is a win-win situation, as broos die and your enemies die.

That really seems to be the essence of it, and is quite logical.

[moonwolf8]

Hail Harshax!

The end of the current age is not the end of the world and especially not the end of magic.  It's merely the end of the current empires.  A relatively minor adjustment in politics.  Much like the end of globalization in the RW.

People will continue to commune with their gods, or discover new ones, or rediscover old ones they've forgotten but the same patterns of spirit magic, rune magic and sorcery will persist.  Here I'll throw in a RW example by Steven Posch from over on witchesandpagans.com dated April 13, 2023:

“You have to understand, my daughter is profoundly autistic. For her, other people simply don't exist.”

The man thanking me for the ritual that I had brought to a festival earlier that summer has tears in his eyes.

By the time that he's finished with his story, so do I.

 

The Bride of the Forest

 

Together, we process to the Circle. The Maidens of the tribe dance for the Elders.

The Elders select one of the maidens. We veil and garland her as a bride.

We take her in procession to the ford, where it crosses Turtle Creek. There we wait.

Across the creek, the god emerges from the forest. His body is a man's body, tall, naked, shining, but his head is the head of a nine-point stag.

 

(“Wow,” breathed a little boy standing near me. “Is that really him?” His father took his hand. “Yes, son,” he answered, as much to himself as to the boy. “Yes, it is.”)

 

He stretches out his hand to the Chosen Maiden.

She runs to him, tearing off the veil and garland in her eagerness, splashing through the water. Hand-in-hand, they enter the forest together.

We turn back to the Circle. In return for the gifts of the Forest, we have given of our own; but the sorrow of that giving lies deep upon us nonetheless: so young, so fair.

Suddenly, she is back among us: she, the Bride of the Forest.

And look at the belly she's got on her now. She's pregnant!

The drums come up. Joyously, we dance.

 

“...People like you and me, she doesn't even see,” he continues.

His voice lowers, trembling.

“But she could see the god.”

 

We are the new Pagans of the West. Basically, we're amateurs, feeling our way in the dark. A lot of the time, quite frankly, we get it wrong.

Yet even so, wonders walk among us.

My friends, what are we unloosing upon the world?"

Another one by the same author titled One for the Big Guy, dated May 6, 2023:

"The yard-work can't wait, but the weather-oracles say rain, and when I go out, the sky doesn't look promising.

So I face West and pray.

“Thunder, hold off long enough for me to get this done, and I promise you a pouring tonight.”

(A gift for a gift, the ancestors always said.)

Tradition holds that the Big Guy likes his libations, especially the strong stuff.

 

Now, do I actually believe that Thunder is a big, cute bearded guy up in the sky who hears what I say? Do I honestly think that the forces that drive this planet's weather give a flying f*ck about what I want? Do I truly believe that the Universe makes deals?

No, no, and no. Nonetheless, I make my prayer and, eventually, my offering, as promised.

Why?

1. Because I'm human, and humans are social animals that have always treated with the non-human world as if it were human, too.

2. Because it keeps me connected with the Great Out There, which, in these days of screen-induced h. sapiens narcissism, is a state devoutly to be wished.

3. Because, in my experience, it actually works. I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions about operative mechanism here.

Soon after, I feel the first drops. Then it begins to rain hard. Oh well, I think, it never hurts to ask.

A friend of mine who grew up Baptist always tells me: Prayer is always answered. It's just that sometimes, the answer is “No.”

 

I get in the car and head to the store. By the time that I come out again, the Sun is shining. Really, one couldn't ask for better yard-work weather.

I drive home, roll up my sleeves, and, in time, get done everything that needed to be done.

So: was my prayer answered, or not? I leave you to make your own call on that one.

Am I planning to pour out my libation tonight as promised? You bet your sweet ass I am, speaking of things that Thunder is said to like.

When you make a deal with a god, you'd be a fool not to keep up your end of the bargain.

 

As I'm bagging up the last of last year's leaves, a pedestrian comes past.

“Picked a good day for that,” he says. “That little rain this morning really did a nice job of settling the dust, didn't it?”

What he says is true. Usually at this point in the task, I'd be sneezing like crazy, with itching eyes, and snot running down my face.

Thunder, you f*cker. No wonder I love you so much.

 

Well, thanks, Stud, I owe you one.

Tonight the drink's on me."

Now, how would you Gloranthify these two examples?

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 5/12/2023 at 11:28 PM, mfbrandi said:

What if the gods are real but they are not much like people, and they would no more sit in judgement on mortals than a hurricane or an earthquake would?

because their worshippers meet them, communicate with them, sometimes "share" their personality/soul/role, we know that the gloranthan gods are not only"wind", "fire", "sun" etc.  They have taste, passion (love, lust, hate, fear, ...)

However I agree that your other arguments open the door to change my view 🙂

 

It's true that all praxians are not storm bullies. And sometimes there are other priorities for those who are in charge of the tribes, and not focused on the eternal battle.

 

 

16 hours ago, soltakss said:

You ally with Broos and send them against your enemies. In the battle many Broos die and many of your enemies die. That is a win-win situation, as broos die and your enemies die.

And as usual*, sir Simon is able to convince me !

 

 

*except for heroquest super power gift 😛