Jump to content

Monster Empire


EricW

Recommended Posts

I wish there was more material on the progression of the empire into the heaving chaotic horror of the monster empire.

I get the sense chaos taints amongst Lunars were unusual up until the dragon rise? Like they were happy to use battlefield chaos magic, but left actual direct contact with chaos to the specialists.

But if the Lunars followed the progression of the 1st age illuminates when they found themselves losing to Arkat, at some point Lunars would have started being less fussy about who or what supplied the power they craved to win battles. At some point perhaps ordinary soldiers and commanders started increasingly partaking personally of the strengthening corruption?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thus far, there’s no evidence for that. I mean, it’s a reasonable analogy, but only die-hard Bronze Age genocide-enthusiasts have pretended that everyone in the Empire was personally corrupted by Chaos by the time Argrath’s acts raised Wakboth to the imperial throne. It has unpleasant echoes of the way nasty regimes dehumanise their enemies (“Oh, they aren’t really people, this is just pest control”), and I prefer not to play with folk who like to think that way.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Thus far, there’s no evidence for that. I mean, it’s a reasonable analogy, but only die-hard Bronze Age genocide-enthusiasts have pretended that everyone in the Empire was personally corrupted by Chaos by the time Argrath’s acts raised Wakboth to the imperial throne. It has unpleasant echoes of the way nasty regimes dehumanise their enemies (“Oh, they aren’t really people, this is just pest control”), and I prefer not to play with folk who like to think that way.

It doesn’t have to be genocide, I wasn’t suggesting that. Even in the last days there must have been innocents who needed rescuing, or Lunar rebels driven to desperation by the rising corruption, who needed help. The chaotic not a man who visited Argrath and pleaded for help suggests there were plenty who looked to Argrath as a saviour, even among the corrupted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, EricW said:

It doesn’t have to be genocide, I wasn’t suggesting that. Even in the last days there must have been innocents who needed rescuing, or Lunar rebels driven to desperation by the rising corruption, who needed help. The chaotic not a man who visited Argrath and pleaded for help suggests there were plenty who looked to Argrath as a saviour, even among the corrupted.

I think it would be a highly unusual campaign that would arrive at that point.  At least, I'd like to think so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

It has unpleasant echoes of the way nasty regimes dehumanise their enemies (“Oh, they aren’t really people, this is just pest control”), and I prefer not to play with folk who like to think that way.

I get that, but suppose the Lunars had all sprouted third eyes and wormlike prehensile tails, and that they levitated for three hours every evening. What then? In my book, that still wouldn’t justify genocide.

So in contention we have:

  • If they were like us, we wouldn’t be allowed to kill them,
    but they are not like us, so we will exterminate the brutes.
     
  • If they were like us, we wouldn’t be allowed to kill them,
    and they are like us, so we’re not allowed to kill them.
     
  • They are not like us, but that is no reason to kill them,
    and we will learn to live with them.

Isn’t the danger of “we are all brothers and sisters under the skin” that it cedes too much to the genocidal bad guys? That they might respond, “But if they weren’t human, we could kill them, right?”

Suppose the Lunars were both different and in some way “worse” than their enemies, wouldn’t we still be a long way from justifying genocide? Capital punishment for litterbugs?

Of course, they are really people, even the ones with the extra eyes and uncanny tails.

NOTORIOUS VØID CULTIST

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, EricW said:

the progression of the 1st age illuminates when they found themselves losing to Arkat

So an internal squabble among the illuminates, then?

Perhaps we should view the negative take on illumination as being a comment on the nuclear stand-off between the USA and the USSR (rather than a dig at kōan-loving Buddhists): those who believe in the deterrence provided by mutually assured destruction are those who have been seduced by the sweet rationality of their illumination, but — according to the PseudoGreg I am dumping this on — they are wrong, and there will be inevitable escalation toward apocalypse.

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

NOTORIOUS VØID CULTIST

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really don't like the idea that the Monster Empire is falling victim to the same flaws that befell the Empire of Light.  Wakboth or Ralzakark or what-have-you shouldn't become Emperor just because the Lunars are afraid of losing.  The Lunars have been out of power since the Lightbringer's Quest.  Sheng Seleris has been and gone.  Anybody who was anybody in the Lunar Empire is a historical footnote in the time of the Monster Empire.  It's like blaming Metternich for 20th Century Europe.

A simpler explanation might be the destruction caused by the Hero Wars (we already have a Flood, Smoke Storms, Windstop and Great Ice) simply allowed Chaos to step back in in a big way.  The Lunars at this time aren't actively inviting Chaos in or fighting alongside it; they are using their mysteries to live with the active presence of Chaos in their world.  Fallout: Peloria so to speak.  

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a coda, my theory about the leadup Battle of Moonfall is this.  Argrath can't even think of defeating Wakboth/Ralzakark and the Monster Empire in an unfair fight.  So he goes after the Red Moon who is providing protection to the many distressed multitudes in Peloria.  That's why the list of enemies in King of Sartar are Lunars rather than Wakboth and the Unholy Trio that _Argrath and the Devil_ suggests.  

Edited by metcalph
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

I really don't like the idea that the Monster Empire is falling victim to the same flaws that befell the Empire of Light.  Wakboth or Ralzakark or what-have-you shouldn't become Emperor just because the Lunars are afraid of losing.  The Lunars have been out of power since the Lightbringer's Quest.  Sheng Seleris has been and gone.  Anybody who was anybody in the Lunar Empire is a historical footnote in the time of the Monster Empire.  It's like blaming Metternich for 20th Century Europe.

A simpler explanation might be the destruction caused by the Hero Wars (we already have a Flood, Smoke Storms, Windstop and Great Ice) simply allowed Chaos to step back in in a big way.  The Lunars at this time aren't actively inviting Chaos in or fighting alongside it; they are using their mysteries to live with the active presence of Chaos in their world.  Fallout: Peloria so to speak.  

Of course there are Lunars who are willingly turning to the Lords of Terror in their war with Sartar. Heck, there are Lunars who willingly supported the Lords of Terror before the Hero Wars broke out - Vivamort, Thed, Mallia, etc. This is not condoned by the state - and when it is turned against the Empire it was put down - but it was not forbidden either. This is part of the Lunar Way of course.

As the Hero Wars progress there are more who are willing to resort to this and Chaos is willingly and knowingly invited it. When the Red Emperor and Sheng Seleris are no more, the gates are opened, and Ralzakark is able to grab the center of the world. Once again, the Gods War let Chaos in. Some humans throw themselves behind Chaos, others fight against it. We are in the Greater Darkness again, and it is up to mortals to solve the problem created by the conflict between Old Gods and the New.

  • Like 2
  • Helpful 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/28/2023 at 5:59 AM, EricW said:

I get the sense chaos taints amongst Lunars were unusual up until the dragon rise? Like they were happy to use battlefield chaos magic, but left actual direct contact with chaos to the specialists.

Don't forget that Priestesses of the Seven Mothers can use Chaos Gift that can leave them with a Chaos taint, unless they are Illuminated. So, does the proportion of Priestesses using Chaos Gift increase?

On 5/28/2023 at 5:59 AM, EricW said:

But if the Lunars followed the progression of the 1st age illuminates when they found themselves losing to Arkat, at some point Lunars would have started being less fussy about who or what supplied the power they craved to win battles. At some point perhaps ordinary soldiers and commanders started increasingly partaking personally of the strengthening corruption?

In my view, most of the people in the Lunar Empire didn't take on Chaos Powers, in the same way that most people in the Golden Empire didn't take on Chaotic Powers.

However, the severity of the attacks by their enemies, first Argrath, then Sheng Seleris, then Argrath again, forced some of the rulers and their companions/households to turn to more extreme powers. 

On 5/28/2023 at 6:55 AM, Nick Brooke said:

I mean, it’s a reasonable analogy, but only die-hard Bronze Age genocide-enthusiasts have pretended that everyone in the Empire was personally corrupted by Chaos by the time Argrath’s acts raised Wakboth to the imperial throne. It has unpleasant echoes of the way nasty regimes dehumanise their enemies (“Oh, they aren’t really people, this is just pest control”), and I prefer not to play with folk who like to think that way.

Some certainly did, as evidenced in King of Sartar, but I believe that most didn't. I have the same misgivings as Nick does regarding the "Death to all Chaos" camp.

On 5/28/2023 at 7:06 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Wakboth as Emperor is existentially fatal to Glorantha As We Know It. 

It is, but Peloria had the Empty Emperor, or was it the Shadow Emperor, so the precedent was already there. The Monster Emperor simply took its place.

On 5/28/2023 at 9:33 AM, EricW said:

It doesn’t have to be genocide, I wasn’t suggesting that. Even in the last days there must have been innocents who needed rescuing, or Lunar rebels driven to desperation by the rising corruption, who needed help. The chaotic not a man who visited Argrath and pleaded for help suggests there were plenty who looked to Argrath as a saviour, even among the corrupted.

Argrath's Temple of the Reaching Storm probably used refugees from the Lunar Empire. He had already conquered Yara Aranis, as she was used to drag Sheng Seleris back to Hell. 

22 hours ago, metcalph said:

I really don't like the idea that the Monster Empire is falling victim to the same flaws that befell the Empire of Light.  Wakboth or Ralzakark or what-have-you shouldn't become Emperor just because the Lunars are afraid of losing.  The Lunars have been out of power since the Lightbringer's Quest.  Sheng Seleris has been and gone.  Anybody who was anybody in the Lunar Empire is a historical footnote in the time of the Monster Empire.  It's like blaming Metternich for 20th Century Europe.

I do like the idea, as it is just an expression of the fact that Glorantha repeats itself in various ways.

Sure, the Monster Emperor has little relationship with the Red Emperor or Sheng Seleris, as the Monster Empire arises after their deaths. Using my Hero Wars Timeline, the Red Emperor dies in 1680, Sheng Seleris dies in 1708, the Red Moon is torn down in 1725. So, the Monster Empire exists between 1708 and 1725, only lasting 17 years, and was formed only 28 years after the Red Emperor was killed. Of course, there are discrepancies, as Queen Inkarne reigned from 1743-1843 and was queen during the Monster Time, but that is after Argrath was apotheosised.

23 hours ago, metcalph said:

A simpler explanation might be the destruction caused by the Hero Wars (we already have a Flood, Smoke Storms, Windstop and Great Ice) simply allowed Chaos to step back in in a big way.  The Lunars at this time aren't actively inviting Chaos in or fighting alongside it; they are using their mysteries to live with the active presence of Chaos in their world.  Fallout: Peloria so to speak.  

I agree that the Hero Wars broke Glorantha again, allowing Chaos back in.

22 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

“You’ve found a way to survive the Apocalypse we caused… you monsters!”

Yes, that sums it up. That also applied to the people of the Golden Empire, which is why I see parallels.

 

  • Like 3

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Monster Empire is hard to judge because we barely know anything and what we do know comes from Argath worshippers.

You could probably make a decent case for 'The lunar empire is basically a flaming wreck after Sheng Seleris II Boogaloo and Ralkazark marches out of Dorastor and just conquers everything'.

Once he's in charge, it's chaos sandwiches for everyone.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, John Biles said:

The Monster Empire is hard to judge because we barely know anything and what we do know comes from Argath worshippers.

We still get some reasonable clues from King of Sartar. (And as Jeff has noted elsewhere, this is the Great Darkness returned.)

p.27: "The beings who took his place were not human, and had objectives which were beyond human ken. The empire of evil did not lack supporters who sought to get whatever they could before the end of their days. Anyone with compassion was seen as a willing victim, and the oppression within the empire was far worse than the military efforts outside of it. They let the Ice come, because it suited them."

"The dissolution of the world had progressed so far that many of the ancient gods woke into conscious action. Those beings had been forbidden by their own oaths to ever intervene directly into the world of life unless their very essence was threatened with entropic destruction. And in the days when the Great King fought against the Monster Empire, the gods walked beside him."

p.132: "Inkarne was queen when the great ice came, and Andarath Hagalsson died fighting. The ice demon armies came down from the surrounding mountains at last, and held a victory dance upon the graves of good kings. She was queen when the normal seasons were replaced with the Smoke Storms from the south, where the oceans burned for a year. Her son Jenethir the Argrath was one of the heroes who went to the quiet place and knocked that dirty wind off its center, and let weather start again."

p.133: "She was queen when the skies turned orange and green, and her son the sword‑wielding Unstanosson drove the Firewitch and the night‑warlock out of Blackorm Mountain. She was queen when the Monster Time came, and her son Annstad Prestonsson and daughter Yenesting Gyffursdotter were two of the Seven Heroes who drove them off with the High King."

p.134: "She was the queen who ruled when the earth broke, and the water ran strangely in its riverbeds, and the oceans went away for a while. She told my mother that the worst thing in her life was when the skies went black, and the dust kept falling down, and all the children, including her own, died. And the best thing in her reign was when the five and seven came back."

Despite attribution to "later" times, clearly these events are all part of the destruction of the world under the Monster Empire. 

We know only fragments of the Lunar side.

Guide p.742: "The empire, in response, summoned the Seven Granddaughters of the Red Moon, the Twin Fire Demons, the Vampire Legion, the Stonewall Regiment, the Fingers of the Goddess, the Jailers of the Dandarath, the Blue Wizards, the Blue Serpent, and the Moon Wind." - clearly a mix of demi-gods, ancient regiments, vampires, likely Carmanian wizards, the river goddess and more.

p.746: "Plate 40: This plate depicts a one-horned broo dancing atop a golden ziggurat. The triumphant Blood Sun looms directly above him, blessing him. The fragile Sky Dome is collapsing, and the earth crumbles in fear."

p.749: "27. Uz come out of their mountains and eat Men, Plant Men, Stone Men, and Water Men.

28. The Sun falls from the sky, and the planets fall down as well. The Sky Tyrant devours stars, and fires fall from the heaven. Only the Red Moon remains in the sky, fed by sacrifices to the Blood Sun."

The latter suggests that with Sheng's death, the Sun is gone and only the Red Moon/Blood Sun remains in the sky.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"I wished for a world uncontaminated by the greed and brutality of man. I wished for a world that was the perfect playground of superhuman minds. And see! It has all come to pass! And here I stand in this dreadful city of endless night. The last man. The last human being, his wishes fulfilled. Watching a black sunset."

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A few mad natterings.  I think that as a result of chaos's easy entrance (all the Heroes who could have stopped it are dead or missing), desperate magicians transformed Peloria into six hells to halt its spread.  At the topmost level is the Golden Empire where Ralzakark rules - a combination of Midsomar and Lyendell.  Beneath it somewhere is a land where the Osliris pure sludge and flows directly into a massive gorp.  At the very bottom, Peloria is crumbling into the Void starting with the river bottoms and expanding outwards.  

People can travel from one hell to another by chaotic and or magics.  Simply being killed sends you into the hell beneath you - Ralzakark claims have abolished Death.  At the upper levels, the Great Ice surrounds the important places because Ralzakark and others don't want uncontrolled chaotic hordes entering their lands.  

Time has been broken.  People currently think it is 1725 or thereabouts (KoS 1st edition in joke).  The Red Moon is extremely weak - the full moon phases is annullar and faces the earth at various angles rather than one side

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Helpful 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

The last man. The last human being, his wishes fulfilled. Watching a black sunset.

Spoiler

Zenith Phase 4

Or adapt Melville:

  • All visible objects are but as pasteboard masks. If man will strike, strike through the mask. How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To me, the Red Moon is that wall, shoved near to me. Sometimes I think there’s naught beyond. But ’tis enough. She tasks me; She heaps me; I see in Her outrageous strength, with an inscrutable malice sinewing it. That inscrutable thing is chiefly what I hate; and be the Red Moon agent, or be the Red Moon principal, I will wreak that hate upon Her. Talk not to me of blasphemy; I’d strike the sun if it insulted me.

Argrath —> Arkat —> Ahab?

NOTORIOUS VØID CULTIST

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A couple more hells (the basic scheme was outlined an article Greg wrote in Tales #8 in which Chaos had six forms - the first four mentioned in Cults of Terror p20 and the last two being Evil and Seduction).

Refuseland:  A colder darker version of the Void in the _Loki_ show.  The things that where broken and lost in the above hells end up here.  Much of it is unusable but a hardy few scour the ruins to find freshly fallen refuse.

Maggotland:  A land of ash and sand.  The main form of life is huge maggots (the type that appeared in Snakepipe Hollow) behaving live the sandworms in Dune.  Rounding of this chaotic caricature are various chaotic species acting like hardy Fremen.

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I cannot help but feel that the Monster Empire can be several different things lumped together by the Sartarites that are not really the same. So the Monster Empire refers to Ralzakark usurping both the mantle of Yelm and Moonson, receiving power from the Blood Sun and the Red Moon, but also with attached obligations. But it also refers to the Ice trolls breaking out from Valind's glacier and devouring the lowlands. And the Dagori Inkarth trolls trying to become once again the main power in the Darkness, which brings about the casting out of Cragspider by the Sartarites, and I suspect the eventual annihilation of most or all of the trolls, depending how you wish to interpret the Fourth Age.

The Blood Sun is, if I remember right, an Uz creation from the Kingdom of Ignorance, though at this point it may well be a useful power source when the sun is out, imported by Sheng Seleris and then coopted by Dragon Pass Uz and Ralzakark. The question for me then is whether this potential collaboration between Darkness and Chaos is real, or is it just human apophenia, seeing as causally linked events that are just synchronic?

The end of the Monster Empire, if we extend the Greater Darkness analogy, should be a new compromise, one that brings back a Sun and a Moon, white this time, rather than the Red Moon destruction so beloved of the Argrathis. The seven hints at another LBQ, while the five could correspond to the help from the five directions that bring the Moonfall.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, JRE said:

The Blood Sun is, if I remember right, an Uz creation from the Kingdom of Ignorance, though at this point it may well be a useful power source when the sun is out, imported by Sheng Seleris and then coopted by Dragon Pass Uz and Ralzakark.

Yes, starts there, but has missionaries abroad.

Guide p.267: "Bova Mada Kelen Nomada: This dark troll from Chen Durel is head of the Blood Sun cult and an ally of Can Shu. Brutal and sadistic, he is nonetheless powerful and canny. He has close contact with his god, and has taught his missionaries well (they include such individuals as Alanthore of the Lunar Empire, An Lin Chao of Kralorela, Denker of Chen Durel, and Livia Tarinda of the East Isles). He commands a host of tormented ghosts, all drowned in the blessings of the Blood Sun."

p.302: "Alanthore: This Seer and Prophet has been roaming around the Redlands and the lower Arcos River, spreading his new cult of the Red Sun. The Red Sun encourages human sacrifice, and protects those cities which set up temples from Pentan raiders."

Undoubtedly has a nice tie to Hon-eel in that region as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, JRE said:

But it also refers to the Ice trolls breaking out from Valind's glacier and devouring the lowlands. And the Dagori Inkarth trolls trying to become once again the main power in the Darkness, which brings about the casting out of Cragspider by the Sartarites, and I suspect the eventual annihilation of most or all of the trolls, depending how you wish to interpret the Fourth Age.

 

I do think the Sartarites could distinguish trolls from chaos.  It's something the Malkioni would be more likely to do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

The Strugatskis’ Roadside Picnic? Ballard? Mike Harrison? Heroquesting without rose-tinted spectacles?

"I'm looking for a ball.  On the day he was doomed to die, Sheng killed Argrath and made his head into a ball for his followers to play with.  I would very much like to have that ball."

"To bring Argrath back to life?"

"What?  No!  I want to get in a few kicks in one of those people who destroyed this place before Chaos takes me."

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

I do think the Sartarites could distinguish trolls from chaos.  It's something the Malkioni would be more likely to do.

Or the Pelorians.

The Monster Empire gets its title because Peloria is ruled by a monster, backed up by broo and other horrors. Dragons, barbarians, and trolls pillage lands once peacefully ruled by bright lords and Lunar mystics. It is the time of the Empty Emperor, and even a monster is better than no emperor at all.

  • Helpful 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...