Pavis vs. Waha

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Nick Brooke said:

Yes, I know. That’s the point I was making. Argrath attacks Pavis for Argrath’s reasons, not Waha’s or Storm Bull’s or anybody else’s.

Well let's be fair - he attacks Pavis because it is the Lunar command center in Prax. And it is very easy to get Orlanth, Waha, and Storm Bull on board to do that.

[Jeff]

19 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Well let's be fair - he attacks Pavis because it is the Lunar command center in Prax. And it is very easy to get Orlanth, Waha, and Storm Bull on board to do that.

Argrath's contribution to this is that he finds a way to get the members of these cults to work together towards a goal their gods are all copacetic with.

[Jeff]

9 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

Yes, I can clarify. My sense of the Praxians is something like:

40% of them despise the city and want nothing to do with it

30% are neutral and dislike it, but use it because its handy

10% quite like what it offers as a variation and are happy to visit and even stay nearby for a while

20% think it is an utter abomination and would like it wiped off the face of the lozenge, but never have to go near it so don't give it much thought

Culturally my sense is that they are supposed to actively hate it, and that it goes against the precepts of Waha, but that most Eirithans counsel tolerance

I don't think that is the case. Again the cults are Neutral. So probably much more like:

60% are completely pragmatic towards it. That's the Waha and Eiritha factions.

10% are hostile towards it. This tends to be the Storm Bull faction.

20% are friendly towards it. This tends to be Lightbringers and Solar factions.

10% don't have any opinion. This tends to be the Daka Fal faction.

[mal]

thanks for the excellent discussion guys!

I'll be allowing worshipers of any Praxian gods to join the adventuring group and let them know ahead of time the end goal is to help the Pavis cult. That way they can come up with their own reasons why they are okay with that (likely during the course of the campaign). 

[Nick Brooke]

Genuine question for Jeff: do you think cult compatibility charts somehow express Universal Setting Truths, or are they more situational? How far would you let the relationship between two cults vary from that shown on the charts, in different times, places and contexts? It seems to me that a cult is a mortal construct, fallibly led, bounded by Time and shaped by History, and not an immutable truth. To take an obvious example, Dara Happan leadership after the failed First Wane rebellion had a different attitude to the Red Goddess than the previous management: was this change reflected in the then-extant cult compatibility chart?

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Genuine question for Jeff: do you think cult compatibility charts somehow express Universal Setting Truths, or are they more situational? How far would you let the relationship between two cults vary from that shown on the charts, in different times, places and contexts? It seems to me that a cult is a mortal construct, fallibly led, bounded by Time and shaped by History, and not an immutable truth. To take an obvious example, Dara Happan leadership after the failed First Wane rebellion had a different attitude to the Red Goddess than the previous management: was this change reflected in the then-extant cult compatibility chart?

The cult compatibility charts are a snapshot in Time. Some cults do change their compatibility within Time, others do not. 

But I also think there is less of this than people might think. For example, in the First Wane I think the Yelm cult was Associated with the Red Goddess cult (thanks to Yelmgatha and the Red Goddess) and the Red Emperor was the high priest of Yelm. But for largely political reasons, the Tripolis rebelled against the Red Emperor. 

This to me is no different than two Orlanthi tribes fighting with each other or two Waha worshiping tribes fighting with each other.

Where I think it happens a lot is when cults are Neutral towards each other because they have not really interacted with each other. Pamalt is neutral towards the Red Goddess. But I suspect that is just that he doesn't know her yet.

[Nick Brooke]

A snapshot in Time, agreed.

A snapshot in space? Different relationships in different parts of the Lozenge?

[Ian A. Thomson]

28 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

I don't think that is the case. Again the cults are Neutral. So probably much more like:

60% are completely pragmatic towards it. That's the Waha and Eiritha factions.

10% are hostile towards it. This tends to be the Storm Bull faction.

20% are friendly towards it. This tends to be Lightbringers and Solar factions.

10% don't have any opinion. This tends to be the Daka Fal faction.

I have mentioned in the original thread specifically that I am talking about my campaign and not Gloranthan truths

And discussed it in some depth

Your points here seem totally reasonable as to how Prax works in the canon details

In my campaign the smouldering threat of Praxians is greater

Edited August 24, 2023 by Ian A. Thomson

[Ian A. Thomson]

44 minutes ago, mal said:

thanks for the excellent discussion guys!

I'll be allowing worshipers of any Praxian gods to join the adventuring group and let them know ahead of time the end goal is to help the Pavis cult. That way they can come up with their own reasons why they are okay with that (likely during the course of the campaign). 

Yeh, if you mention that they need to be at least neutral towards the city ("Each to their own strange ways.") then that will be fine. There will be Praxian enemies in later scenarios, and these will not be considered problematic by a big chunk of Praxians who are indifferent to the city or (as discussed above) broadly dismissive of the alien ways that they don't want in Prax. But that big chunk just needs to be more than a tiny minority. Doesn't have to be the majority. It just isn;t some weird splinter group amidst a culture that are broadly fine with the city. Point being that in this campaign, the Praxians as a culture are NOT broadly comfortable with the city.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Ian A. Thomson

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

A snapshot in Time, agreed.

A snapshot in space? Different relationships in different parts of the Lozenge?

I think there is an element of this, but again it is probably largely due to lack of contact and activity. So for example, we could imagine some Seven Mothers missionaries making it to Umathela and initially getting a Neutral response from the local Orlanth cult. That might be able to be sustained for some time assuming: 1. the Red Goddess cult studiously avoids displaying Chaos, and 2. the Seven Mothers don't try to displace the Orlanth cult socially or magically. Sooner or later some jerk would screw it up, but might be able to last for quite a while (especially if there are not many Illuminates).

But rarely will we have a cult that is generally hostile or an enemy to another cult be any better than Neutral thanks to lack of contact.

[GoldShogun]

I have a question that is tangentially related to the topic.

How much choice does the individual have when it comes to following the cult relationships especially when it comes to hostile and enemy cults.

I imagine most follow the party line when it comes to what cult dislikes who but can an individual ignore that and if so is there any punishment?  Could a Red Goddess initiate be friends with an Orlanthi one or a solar being friends with a darkness cultist or is it safe to assume they are going to fight on sight?

[mal]

1 hour ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

Yeh, if you mention that they need to be at least neutral towards the city ("Each to their own strange ways.") then that will be fine. There will be Praxian enemies in later scenarios, and these will not be considered problematic by a big chunk of Praxians who are indifferent to the city or (as discussed above) broadly dismissive of the alien ways that they don't want in Prax. But that big chunk just needs to be more than a tiny minority. Doesn't have to be the majority. It just isn;t some weird splinter group amidst a culture that are broadly fine with the city. Point being that in this campaign, the Praxians as a culture are NOT broadly comfortable with the city.

thanks Ian...

Yes I 'd expect this.  As Jeff said above Praxians have no issues fighting other Praxians so I'm sure they'd be fine with tribes attacking the city or trying to thwart the plans of the city cult..

[radmonger]

i guess the crux of the issue is that if there is a true myth 'Waha razes the city', then sooner or later someone will try and reenact it. if that was the only relevant myth, the cults would be hostile.

So the fact that they are neutral, while fully aware of each other, pretty much implies there is some equally true myth like 'Eiritha persuades Waha the city is a place where you can get nice things'.

[soltakss]

23 hours ago, mal said:

1. I assume that Praxian Waha, Storm Bull, and Eiritha worshippers aren't allowed as PCs due to the fact they oppose the PAVIS cult. Am I correct in that assumption...

As a GM, I wouldn't stop any PC cults in the game. Pavis has its share of tame Storm Bulls and Eiritha Cultists, it even has a temple. Waha cultists are great, as long as they behave and don't attack the Pavis cult.  In fact, the Big Rubble is simply crying out to be cleaned out by Storm Bulls, so they are probably welcome.

23 hours ago, mal said:

2. In the most current iteration of Glorantha it seems that only 10-15 percent of the population (at least in Sartar) is literate. If we go by that it seems like all the forms and such in Pavis etc would not really be feasible... What are your thoughts on that?

Old Pavisites are probably more literate than that. Even the Orlanthi of New Pavis are probably more literate than usual, as they see themselves as more cultured than their country bumpkin relatives. However, some Orlanth revel in their traditional ways and don't hold with all this reading and writing.

The various subcults of Pavis are very minor and don't have many followers at all. They probably only survive as they are supported by the Pavis cult.

 

[Jeff]

52 minutes ago, GoldShogun said:

I have a question that is tangentially related to the topic.

How much choice does the individual have when it comes to following the cult relationships especially when it comes to hostile and enemy cults.

I imagine most follow the party line when it comes to what cult dislikes who but can an individual ignore that and if so is there any punishment?  Could a Red Goddess initiate be friends with an Orlanthi one or a solar being friends with a darkness cultist or is it safe to assume they are going to fight on sight?

Individuals have lots of lee-way. This represents the ceremonial attitudes of the cults towards each other.

[soltakss]

49 minutes ago, GoldShogun said:

How much choice does the individual have when it comes to following the cult relationships especially when it comes to hostile and enemy cults.

As much as the Players want them to have.

49 minutes ago, GoldShogun said:

I imagine most follow the party line when it comes to what cult dislikes who but can an individual ignore that and if so is there any punishment?  Could a Red Goddess initiate be friends with an Orlanthi one or a solar being friends with a darkness cultist or is it safe to assume they are going to fight on sight?

Here's how I see it. Imagine that you support one football team and your friend supports their arch-rivals. Do you hate them on sight because of it? Do you bicker about it and agree to disagree? Are you still friends but know about their incredibly taste in teams? It all depends on the people. I know people who won't be friends with supporters of rival teams. My cousin supports my team's rivals but do I hate him for that? Of course not. Can you be friends with people with radically different political views to you? Of course you can but some people can't see past that.

It's the same with cults. You can still be friends with someone who worships a hostile or enemy cult. 

Now, some people play Cults as being worshipped by fanatics and that makes things harder. I don't do that and I haven't played in campaigns that do that, but I have seen views, for example, that a Humakti and Lanbrili can never be friends as the cults are Hostile.

 

[John Biles]

2 hours ago, radmonger said:

i guess the crux of the issue is that if there is a true myth 'Waha razes the city', then sooner or later someone will try and reenact it. if that was the only relevant myth, the cults would be hostile.

So the fact that they are neutral, while fully aware of each other, pretty much implies there is some equally true myth like 'Eiritha persuades Waha the city is a place where you can get nice things'.

Pavis:  Gateway to Adventure, p. 30

Pavis animated and befriended the statue. He and his companions rode atop it as it strode to Dragon Pass. There he met with Joraz Kyrem, Kahn of the Horse People, who
was anxious to re-establish his folk in Prax.  The new allies marched slowly to the old site of Robcradle. In the first battle, the statue alone drove off the beast riders, and they retreated within the walls of Paragua. Then Pavis and his army and statue attacked. This is called the Too Tall Battle, and was fought in 830 S.T. The giants were driven off by the magic of the horse priests, the nomads were confounded by the magic of Pavis and his friends, and Waha engaged in combat with the statue, but was injured, and had one of his hamstrings torn out. Howling in pain, the god limped away and his armies fled with him, abandoning the useless walls to their foes. The giants withdrew to the mountains and never returned.
Other folk retaliated against the Praxians.  The denizens of Dragon Pass sent out a strong expedition against the Paps. It was led by a great worker of magic, Varajiia Nopor. Waha had to respond and was again wounded severely. Numb with loss, the barbarians agreed to surrender if their sacred grounds would be left unharmed. The invaders agreed and withdrew.
Pavis then visited Waha in the Paps and used his arts to heal the barbarian god of his crippling injuries. This brought peace between Pavis and the nomads, and they agreed to act peacefully around Robcradle if Pavis would properly respect their beliefs, too. Many compromises were made, but both parties agreed and peace was made.

 

 

[g33k]

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

... So for example, we could imagine some Seven Mothers missionaries making it to Umathela and initially getting a Neutral response from the local Orlanth cult. That might be able to be sustained for some time assuming: 1. the Red Goddess cult studiously avoids displaying Chaos, and 2. the Seven Mothers don't try to displace the Orlanth cult socially or magically. Sooner or later some jerk would screw it up, but might be able to last for quite a while (especially if there are not many Illuminates) ...

Fundamentally, though... Sedenya is in  direct conflict  with Orlanth over the issue of the Middle Air (and the acceptability of Chaos).

The Orlanthi priests will begin doing divinations, won't they (when it's clear these new 7M cultists are settling in for a long-term stay)?
Won't Orlanth then clue them in?

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 8/24/2023 at 5:00 PM, Jeff said:

This to me is no different than two Orlanthi tribes fighting with each other or two Waha worshiping tribes fighting with each other.

seems to me the most important thing to keep in mind when we read the compatibility chart. People don't follow only one "chart" to decide what they do

 

for example

there are a lot of very different motivation to join Argrath and attack Pavis

 

- you hate Lunar because  some of them attacked you/your family: a good lunar is a dead lunar, not just the real criminals

- you are just loyal to Argrath/your chief/your khan, you have nothing against lunars but if your loyalty commands to kill them, well you kill them

- you think Lunar is chaos and you hate chaos, remove lunar from Pavis

- you are devoted to you god  and consider the red goddess as an enemy so kill her worshippers (of course the chart is useful !)

- you hate the red emperor (you even may be a seven mother worshipper !) and any attack against the empire is an opportunity. Join his opponents.

- you see Pavis as an issue because it is growing with so many migrants. You know they will take your ancestral pasture. You must stop them by killing / deporting / frighten the lunars AND the sartarites (don't care their gods, the point is the resource)

- you see Pavis as an opportunity of plunder, but the walls and the guards are difficult for a little raid. Argrath propose something efficient, a very big raid

... etc...

 

and of course some praxians may have personal reason to like Pavis for business, or even to live in Pavis.

- conflict into your clan, you must leave the plains, you have no social ally in the clan and the tribe. Other tribes will of course enslave or kill you. Pavis is the nearest place to start a new life

- Pavis provides confort you need (other praxians will probably see you as "weak"...) Maybe you have some issue with your cult or god (no more devotion) and you ask yourself why they say another way of life than nomad should be so bad

- Pavis provides business you like (escort, trade, ...). Stay there (a week per season, or definitively) gives you more opportunities

- there is some loyalty in Pavis (a love, a mentor, a master...) . Loyalty stronger than any other in the plains. So you stay in Pavis

... etc ....